Political Roundtable Part XXXII

[dckingsfan]

Sorry I lost my temper, but a man can only take so much.

Pancakes - You're a lawyer, aren't you? I spent years working with very powerful lawyers in DC. I had a big corner office overlooking the White House on the short part of Connecticut Avenue. Like you, they were very smart. Unfortunately, I found that a legal education in many instances comes at the expense of common sense. IOW, I couldn't trust them to manage their way out of a paper bag. They had me to do that work and I had them to do what they were good at.

You and I had a discussion some months ago. I stated what I thought was a universally understood concept. Something like, "an open border policy within a welfare state can't work." You argued the point. All good, but that's an example of your "common sense out the window" on the subject (IMO).

You're concerned about climate change. Me too. Have you noticed that China and India are building coal burning plants faster than we and other countries in the west are closing them down? In today's WSJ there's an article about Indonesia's push for nickel processing plants to take advantage of their nickel resources. New Chinese-built smelters dot the archipelago. As you know, nickel is used extensively in EV batteries. Climate Rights International said "a single nickel-focused industrial park on the Maluku islands will burn more coal than Spain or Brazil when it is fully operational." Think about that for minute.

I''ve mentioned several times on this thread over the past 5-10 years that the D party is pursuing the Cloward-Piven strategy. Crickets. No one had an opinion. I hope you and others can see it clearly now with Biden's open border policies.

Cloward–Piven strategy

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The Cloward–Piven strategy is a political strategy outlined in 1966 by American sociologists and political activists Richard Cloward and Frances Fox Piven. It is the strategy of forcing political change leading to societal collapse through orchestrated crises. The "Cloward-Piven Strategy" seeks to hasten the fall of capitalism by overloading the government bureaucracy with a flood of impossible demands, amassing massive unpayable national debt, and other methods such as unfettered immigration thus pushing society into crisis and economic collapse by overwhelming the United States

Care to elaborate on the "common sense" between the incompatability between an open border and a welfare state? I have to imagine, much of the dispute is due to (1) it not having anything to do with the current political agenda/discussion; and (2) even in speaking in the abstract, an inability to define what "open border" and "welfare state" even means. I can assure you, we do not live in a welfare state. And this is why it's not "all good." There's no depth of thought, and you cling to your ideation of "common sense" without there being any sort of meaningful debate, especially with respect to practical outcomes. The instant debate over immigration, to the extent there is one, is that there are undocumented workers. The solution is to document them, not to erect barriers, not to kick over water cans, not to demonize them, etc.

With regard to climate change, I don't think you're concerned at all. I think you're concerned about deflection, playing a game of gotcha, and sprinkling in elements of xenophobia. If you're actually concerned about climate change, how are you able to continually support a political party that denies its existence? Do you actually want solutions to climate change?

In your research about Chinese pollution, have you actually done any research into how or why China built more coal plants in 2023? Did you realize that (1) China has also massively outpaced the United States in renewable energy infrastructure; (2) at least paid lip service, which the US has refused to do, to be in adherence to the Paris Accords by 2030, and carbon neutrality by 2060; and (3) are also subject to the whims of political convenience and recently re-opened coal licensing after refusing to permit coal plants for several years due to concerns about "energy security" - the same line that the GOP is pushing, and much more successfully in the United States?

Every country needs to do better re: climate change. I can only vote in the US, I don't know about you. I don't know how other nations' failures would somehow dictate my personal policy preferences in America. Unless you don't actually care about climate change, and just like using convenient scapegoats to ignore the issue, so you can support the anti-climate party based on other grounds.

With regard to Cloward-Piven - what is there to say? It's a relic conspiracy theory from the Tea Party days when proto-MAGA thought leaders were coming up with ways to demonize Obama and universal healthcare. The original study came out in the 70's as a journal article, where 2 sociologists observed that a full throated adherence to the civil rights advancements of the '60s as applied to all Americans, not just white Americans, would require a much more robust social safety net than what was available at the time (in other words, social security, welfare, and other New Deal programs only considered poor whites, and in a post-Civil-Rights-Act world, would require much more governmental resources). It was an observation, not a strategy. It was coined as a strategy by Conservative operatives decades later, trying to spin the narrative that civil rights in general was some sort of trojan horse to poison the status quo and collapse the system. I believe it was David Horowitz who first characterized it as a "strategy" and then picked up by Glenn Beck as a mainstream talking point. The goulish part is the insinuation that the failure is deliberate, that affording American citizens civil rights was part of the ploy to collapse the American welfare system, foment political outcry by the poor people, so as to gain popular support for even MORE social programs. That's an insane characterization. It's also an easy one to pull out because the major rallying cry by conservatives is that "we can't afford it" and that any governmental spending, when extrapolated would "collapse the system."

And what exactly is your beef with "Biden's open border" policy? Because that just reads as hollow, outright racism. 1) there is no open border. 2) even if there was, what has happened that has been so bad? Republicans keep saying that there's an immigration crisis, to the point of legally classifying it as a military invasion. Really? How? Where? Unemployment has gone down, so they're not taking our jobs. What exactly should we be so concerned about? What is the crisis, other than the mere presence of undocumented people? Just nonspecific, often anecdotal cites of crime, disease, and other dehumanizing attributes.

Do you know how many people have suffered under the American immigration system, be it Biden's, Trump's, Obama's, or anyone else? Do you know how many lawful, degree-holding foreigners who are desperate to stay and contribute to society have been forced to leave due to the H1B cap? Do you understand how difficult it is to emigrate to another country? Do you know how many white immigrants were allowed into this country, even TO THIS DAY, completely undocumented, but when it comes to POC, it's an invasion? The Irish are the #1 most populous undocumented population in the DMV. And yet, there are people campaigning on MS13.

And in typing all this out, re: Chinese scapegoating, re: Cloward-piven, re: immigration, it all sort of indicates that you're a bigot. Or at least have bigoted beliefs. Maybe you should think about that for a minute.

You're obviously a depressed and angry person pancakes. I was in that same place about 10 years ago. I hope you find a way out of it. It took me a year or two. If I can help, or tell how I did it, I'd be happy to. There's no need for me to elaborate on why an open border coupled with a welfare state doesn't work. It's just common sense. If one has a financial incentive, without fear of repercussions, to violate our immigration laws, then of course that is the course they would take (given the means to pay off the cartels). Sadly, it's a different calculation for women, many of whom are raped during the journey. Somehow, an education in law strips students of the natural ability to exercise common sense. Maybe there should be a course in that before graduation in order to reseed in law students that essential human instinct.

Edit - I meant that comment about depression and my offer of help sincerely pancakes. I don't wish that misery on anyone and I know how fortunate I was to get through it. If not me, reach out to someone else. You have a bright future ahead of you once you overcome whatever it is that's pulling you down.

Two things.

That someone posts an angry post ≠ a depressed individual. This is a logical fallacy. In fact, it can be a very positive outlet depending on how it is done.

This is a very good means to discredit the post. They are angry, therefore have a problem, therefore I don't need to respond to their argument(s) - simply dismiss them.

Thing two - you equated the current border policy = open boarders = Biden's border policy. That of course is a fallacy and very difficult one to unwind given the history of our racist immigration policies and how immigration was driven by Republican farmers (for one).

Then you cleverly worked in "a welfare state doesn't work". Newsflash. It has been working. Our economy continues to grow and immigrants are one of the solid reasons. Like your healthcare, thank that immigrant nurse. Like your house, thank that immigrant construction worker. Like your food, thank that immigrant that is putting food on your table. Newsflash II - if it wasn't for the forever wars and Trump and Bush tax cuts we would be the envy of the west. I am laying that right at your feet.

[popper]

Hmmmm....

Cloward–Piven strategy:

The Cloward–Piven strategy is a political strategy outlined in 1966 by American sociologists and political activists Richard Cloward and Frances Fox Piven. It is the strategy of forcing political change leading to societal collapse through orchestrated crises. The "Cloward-Piven Strategy" seeks to hasten the fall of capitalism by overloading the government bureaucracy with a flood of impossible demands, amassing massive unpayable national debt, and other methods such as unfettered immigration thus pushing society into crisis and economic collapse by overwhelming the United States.

I wonder which party was responsible for the forever wars and tax cuts that have led to most of our unsustainable debt? Which party in the house said they would come up with a plan to cut the debt and then crickets? Which party isn't agreeing to the immigration bill coming out of the Senate?

BTW, there is a name for this - Accusation in a mirror:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accusation_in_a_mirror

You might want to see what Donald Trump is doing. Just saying...

Hmmmm

If you're wondering which party, regarding the "forever wars," it was both, a bipartisan affair. Did you not know that?

BTW - The immigration deal is a ridiculous and ignorant policy that only uninformed persons could support. It's obvious you're one of them. That doesn't mean you're clueless, it just means you need to open you're eyes.

[popper]

Care to elaborate on the "common sense" between the incompatability between an open border and a welfare state? I have to imagine, much of the dispute is due to (1) it not having anything to do with the current political agenda/discussion; and (2) even in speaking in the abstract, an inability to define what "open border" and "welfare state" even means. I can assure you, we do not live in a welfare state. And this is why it's not "all good." There's no depth of thought, and you cling to your ideation of "common sense" without there being any sort of meaningful debate, especially with respect to practical outcomes. The instant debate over immigration, to the extent there is one, is that there are undocumented workers. The solution is to document them, not to erect barriers, not to kick over water cans, not to demonize them, etc.

With regard to climate change, I don't think you're concerned at all. I think you're concerned about deflection, playing a game of gotcha, and sprinkling in elements of xenophobia. If you're actually concerned about climate change, how are you able to continually support a political party that denies its existence? Do you actually want solutions to climate change?

In your research about Chinese pollution, have you actually done any research into how or why China built more coal plants in 2023? Did you realize that (1) China has also massively outpaced the United States in renewable energy infrastructure; (2) at least paid lip service, which the US has refused to do, to be in adherence to the Paris Accords by 2030, and carbon neutrality by 2060; and (3) are also subject to the whims of political convenience and recently re-opened coal licensing after refusing to permit coal plants for several years due to concerns about "energy security" - the same line that the GOP is pushing, and much more successfully in the United States?

Every country needs to do better re: climate change. I can only vote in the US, I don't know about you. I don't know how other nations' failures would somehow dictate my personal policy preferences in America. Unless you don't actually care about climate change, and just like using convenient scapegoats to ignore the issue, so you can support the anti-climate party based on other grounds.

With regard to Cloward-Piven - what is there to say? It's a relic conspiracy theory from the Tea Party days when proto-MAGA thought leaders were coming up with ways to demonize Obama and universal healthcare. The original study came out in the 70's as a journal article, where 2 sociologists observed that a full throated adherence to the civil rights advancements of the '60s as applied to all Americans, not just white Americans, would require a much more robust social safety net than what was available at the time (in other words, social security, welfare, and other New Deal programs only considered poor whites, and in a post-Civil-Rights-Act world, would require much more governmental resources). It was an observation, not a strategy. It was coined as a strategy by Conservative operatives decades later, trying to spin the narrative that civil rights in general was some sort of trojan horse to poison the status quo and collapse the system. I believe it was David Horowitz who first characterized it as a "strategy" and then picked up by Glenn Beck as a mainstream talking point. The goulish part is the insinuation that the failure is deliberate, that affording American citizens civil rights was part of the ploy to collapse the American welfare system, foment political outcry by the poor people, so as to gain popular support for even MORE social programs. That's an insane characterization. It's also an easy one to pull out because the major rallying cry by conservatives is that "we can't afford it" and that any governmental spending, when extrapolated would "collapse the system."

And what exactly is your beef with "Biden's open border" policy? Because that just reads as hollow, outright racism. 1) there is no open border. 2) even if there was, what has happened that has been so bad? Republicans keep saying that there's an immigration crisis, to the point of legally classifying it as a military invasion. Really? How? Where? Unemployment has gone down, so they're not taking our jobs. What exactly should we be so concerned about? What is the crisis, other than the mere presence of undocumented people? Just nonspecific, often anecdotal cites of crime, disease, and other dehumanizing attributes.

Do you know how many people have suffered under the American immigration system, be it Biden's, Trump's, Obama's, or anyone else? Do you know how many lawful, degree-holding foreigners who are desperate to stay and contribute to society have been forced to leave due to the H1B cap? Do you understand how difficult it is to emigrate to another country? Do you know how many white immigrants were allowed into this country, even TO THIS DAY, completely undocumented, but when it comes to POC, it's an invasion? The Irish are the #1 most populous undocumented population in the DMV. And yet, there are people campaigning on MS13.

And in typing all this out, re: Chinese scapegoating, re: Cloward-piven, re: immigration, it all sort of indicates that you're a bigot. Or at least have bigoted beliefs. Maybe you should think about that for a minute.

You're obviously a depressed and angry person pancakes. I was in that same place about 10 years ago. I hope you find a way out of it. It took me a year or two. If I can help, or tell how I did it, I'd be happy to. There's no need for me to elaborate on why an open border coupled with a welfare state doesn't work. It's just common sense. If one has a financial incentive, without fear of repercussions, to violate our immigration laws, then of course that is the course they would take (given the means to pay off the cartels). Sadly, it's a different calculation for women, many of whom are raped during the journey. Somehow, an education in law strips students of the natural ability to exercise common sense. Maybe there should be a course in that before graduation in order to reseed in law students that essential human instinct.

Edit - I meant that comment about depression and my offer of help sincerely pancakes. I don't wish that misery on anyone and I know how fortunate I was to get through it. If not me, reach out to someone else. You have a bright future ahead of you once you overcome whatever it is that's pulling you down.

Two things.

That someone posts an angry post ≠ a depressed individual. This is a logical fallacy. In fact, it can be a very positive outlet depending on how it is done.

This is a very good means to discredit the post. They are angry, therefore have a problem, therefore I don't need to respond to their argument(s) - simply dismiss them.

Thing two - you equated the current border policy = open boarders = Biden's border policy. That of course is a fallacy and very difficult one to unwind given the history of our racist immigration policies and how immigration was driven by Republican farmers (for one).

Then you cleverly worked in "a welfare state doesn't work". Newsflash. It has been working. Our economy continues to grow and immigrants are one of the solid reasons. Like your healthcare, thank that immigrant nurse. Like your house, thank that immigrant construction worker. Like your food, thank that immigrant that is putting food on your table. Newsflash II - if it wasn't for the forever wars and Trump and Bush tax cuts we would be the envy of the west. I am laying that right at your feet.

Blah blah blah. Ignorant, but lots of words.

Edit - yes we need immigrant workers. It's essential to our economy. You seem okay to have them arrive illegally. That's a really bad idea. In fact, you seem to support a destruction of the democratic process with your support of illegal immigration.

[dckingsfan]

You're obviously a depressed and angry person pancakes. I was in that same place about 10 years ago. I hope you find a way out of it. It took me a year or two. If I can help, or tell how I did it, I'd be happy to. There's no need for me to elaborate on why an open border coupled with a welfare state doesn't work. It's just common sense. If one has a financial incentive, without fear of repercussions, to violate our immigration laws, then of course that is the course they would take (given the means to pay off the cartels). Sadly, it's a different calculation for women, many of whom are raped during the journey. Somehow, an education in law strips students of the natural ability to exercise common sense. Maybe there should be a course in that before graduation in order to reseed in law students that essential human instinct.

Edit - I meant that comment about depression and my offer of help sincerely pancakes. I don't wish that misery on anyone and I know how fortunate I was to get through it. If not me, reach out to someone else. You have a bright future ahead of you once you overcome whatever it is that's pulling you down.

Two things.

That someone posts an angry post ≠ a depressed individual. This is a logical fallacy. In fact, it can be a very positive outlet depending on how it is done.

This is a very good means to discredit the post. They are angry, therefore have a problem, therefore I don't need to respond to their argument(s) - simply dismiss them.

Thing two - you equated the current border policy = open boarders = Biden's border policy. That of course is a fallacy and very difficult one to unwind given the history of our racist immigration policies and how immigration was driven by Republican farmers (for one).

Then you cleverly worked in "a welfare state doesn't work". Newsflash. It has been working. Our economy continues to grow and immigrants are one of the solid reasons. Like your healthcare, thank that immigrant nurse. Like your house, thank that immigrant construction worker. Like your food, thank that immigrant that is putting food on your table. Newsflash II - if it wasn't for the forever wars and Trump and Bush tax cuts we would be the envy of the west. I am laying that right at your feet.

Blah blah blah. Ignorant, but lots of words.

Edit - yes we need immigrant workers. It's essential to our economy. You seem okay to have them arrive illegally. That's a really bad idea. In fact, you seem to support a destruction of the democratic process with your support of illegal immigration.

So, you don't want to refute the points? Exactly where did I say that I wanted them to arrive illegally? Fun fact, most illegal immigrants don't come across the border but overstay visas. Many of them are college graduates, nurses, etc.. Those that are coming across the southern border and picking your food and building your houses. How is that causing the collapse of the democratic process?

That brings us to the fallacious argument: "you seem to support a destruction of the democratic process with your support of illegal immigration."

Fun fact: It is our own ignorance to our need of immigration that is destroying the country. Why? Your team (Bush & Trump) buried us with debt. That and our demographic problem means there is only one way out - growth.

Another fun fact: Instead of making a college grad overstay his visa, immediately give the student a visa. Duh!

Another fun fact: Much of the immigration from the south is due to instability of those countries' governments (much of that sowed by the US) and climate change of which we are a major contributor. So, if you want to know how to destroy democracy - undermine the governments around you and make their countries uninhabitable. Geez, almost like we are causing our own problems. Then one party runs on the problem and won't even vote for a solution.

Fascinating.

[popper]

God Almighty. What a calamity of incompetence. McConnell now disavowing the ridiculous immigration deal that his handpicked negotiator agreed to with equally incompetent Dems, DCK included. You can't make this sh*t up.

[popper]

Two things.

That someone posts an angry post ≠ a depressed individual. This is a logical fallacy. In fact, it can be a very positive outlet depending on how it is done.

This is a very good means to discredit the post. They are angry, therefore have a problem, therefore I don't need to respond to their argument(s) - simply dismiss them.

Thing two - you equated the current border policy = open boarders = Biden's border policy. That of course is a fallacy and very difficult one to unwind given the history of our racist immigration policies and how immigration was driven by Republican farmers (for one).

Then you cleverly worked in "a welfare state doesn't work". Newsflash. It has been working. Our economy continues to grow and immigrants are one of the solid reasons. Like your healthcare, thank that immigrant nurse. Like your house, thank that immigrant construction worker. Like your food, thank that immigrant that is putting food on your table. Newsflash II - if it wasn't for the forever wars and Trump and Bush tax cuts we would be the envy of the west. I am laying that right at your feet.

Blah blah blah. Ignorant, but lots of words.

Edit - yes we need immigrant workers. It's essential to our economy. You seem okay to have them arrive illegally. That's a really bad idea. In fact, you seem to support a destruction of the democratic process with your support of illegal immigration.

So, you don't want to refute the points? Exactly where did I say that I wanted them to arrive illegally? Fun fact, most illegal immigrants don't come across the border but overstay visas. Many of them are college graduates, nurses, etc.. Those that are coming across the southern border and picking your food and building your houses. How is that causing the collapse of the democratic process?

That brings us to the fallacious argument: "you seem to support a destruction of the democratic process with your support of illegal immigration."

Fun fact: It is our own ignorance to our need of immigration that is destroying the country. Why? Your team (Bush & Trump) buried us with debt. That and our demographic problem means there is only one way out - growth.

Another fun fact: Instead of making a college grad overstay his visa, immediately give the student a visa. Duh!

Another fun fact: Much of the immigration from the south is due to instability of those countries' governments (much of that sowed by the US) and climate change of which we are a major contributor. So, if you want to know how to destroy democracy - undermine the governments around you and make their countries uninhabitable. Geez, almost like we are causing our own problems. Then one party runs on the problem and won't even vote for a solution.

Fascinating.

Please stop with the fun fact stuff. Give me one issue that you would like to debate/discuss and we can do that.

[dckingsfan]

Blah blah blah. Ignorant, but lots of words.

Edit - yes we need immigrant workers. It's essential to our economy. You seem okay to have them arrive illegally. That's a really bad idea. In fact, you seem to support a destruction of the democratic process with your support of illegal immigration.

So, you don't want to refute the points? Exactly where did I say that I wanted them to arrive illegally? Fun fact, most illegal immigrants don't come across the border but overstay visas. Many of them are college graduates, nurses, etc.. Those that are coming across the southern border and picking your food and building your houses. How is that causing the collapse of the democratic process?

That brings us to the fallacious argument: "you seem to support a destruction of the democratic process with your support of illegal immigration."

Fun fact: It is our own ignorance to our need of immigration that is destroying the country. Why? Your team (Bush & Trump) buried us with debt. That and our demographic problem means there is only one way out - growth.

Another fun fact: Instead of making a college grad overstay his visa, immediately give the student a visa. Duh!

Another fun fact: Much of the immigration from the south is due to instability of those countries' governments (much of that sowed by the US) and climate change of which we are a major contributor. So, if you want to know how to destroy democracy - undermine the governments around you and make their countries uninhabitable. Geez, almost like we are causing our own problems. Then one party runs on the problem and won't even vote for a solution.

Fascinating.

Please stop with the fun fact stuff. Give me one issue that you would like to debate/discuss and we can do that.

Flying a plane is a bit like immigration. You don't just look at airspeed or you will crash. It is multimodal and needs a balanced approach. This goes with the political, economic along with geopolitical. The "destruction of the democratic process with your support of illegal immigration..." topic is nonsense. One only need look at immigration and the Alien and Sedition Acts of 1798 to know that this has been with us for a very long time - and we haven't collapsed.

Our biggest problem isn't "illegal" immigration - it is just the one that is being pushed as "the big problem" and is being done in a very racist manner. That we don't have a good immigration policy is far more pressing. That we had a sitting POTUS try to upend the constitution is far larger problem. That the Rs who destroyed the budget won't come up with a plan to remedy the situation is far worse. That the Rs, when presented with an opportunity to help with immigration put their collective heads in the sand and won't go forward... well, that is the pressing problem at hand.

[Zonkerbl]

Zonk - I know you're an educated person so there's no way you have a reading comprehension problem. For the umpteenth time I'll post again what I've posted here at least four or five other times.

I watched a single Fox News program years ago (Bill O'Reilly show). That's it. Please commit that to memory and quit going on like a drone about Fox News. I don't watch it.

Several months ago you posted where you get your news. WaPo was one source, and I don't remember the other. Not impressive. I posted here what I read (so I won't bother repeating). I've been retired for 17 years so I have a luxury that you probably do not. I can dedicate 4 or 5 hours a day to reading a large variety of sources. Lucky me except the more one learns the more depressing our state of affairs seem.

Popper I didn't mention your name, I was responding to the other drive by idiot. But it's revealing to me that you think I'm talking to you directly. I think there is a wider derposphere that Fox News leads, you don't have to be watching Fox News to be exposed to their right wing propaganda.

I do this stuff for a living and I get a lot of my information straight from the source. If I spent 5 hours a day trying to plow through all the garbage and misinformation that's out there now I'd lose my frickin' mind. That's your problem right there, imho.

Whatever it is you are reading, it sounds like it is not doing you any favors. My advice to you would be to spend more time with your family and stop reading stuff that's adversely affecting your mental health.

P.S. If you are reading stuff five hours a day and somehow missed the fact that Trump spent a huge part of his time in office calling the free press the enemy of the people then I would recommend you stop reading whatever it is immediately and set it on fire

[popper]

Zonk - I know you're an educated person so there's no way you have a reading comprehension problem. For the umpteenth time I'll post again what I've posted here at least four or five other times.

I watched a single Fox News program years ago (Bill O'Reilly show). That's it. Please commit that to memory and quit going on like a drone about Fox News. I don't watch it.

Several months ago you posted where you get your news. WaPo was one source, and I don't remember the other. Not impressive. I posted here what I read (so I won't bother repeating). I've been retired for 17 years so I have a luxury that you probably do not. I can dedicate 4 or 5 hours a day to reading a large variety of sources. Lucky me except the more one learns the more depressing our state of affairs seem.

Popper I didn't mention your name, I was responding to the other drive by idiot. But it's revealing to me that you think I'm talking to you directly. I think there is a wider derposphere that Fox News leads, you don't have to be watching Fox News to be exposed to their right wing propaganda.

I do this stuff for a living and I get a lot of my information straight from the source. If I spent 5 hours a day trying to plow through all the garbage and misinformation that's out there now I'd lose my frickin' mind. That's your problem right there, imho.

Whatever it is you are reading, it sounds like it is not doing you any favors. My advice to you would be to spend more time with your family and stop reading stuff that's adversely affecting your mental health.

P.S. If you are reading stuff five hours a day and somehow missed the fact that Trump spent a huge part of his time in office calling the free press the enemy of the people then I would recommend you stop reading whatever it is immediately and set it on fire

So that's my problem. Thanks for caring about my mental health Zonk.

[popper]

So, you don't want to refute the points? Exactly where did I say that I wanted them to arrive illegally? Fun fact, most illegal immigrants don't come across the border but overstay visas. Many of them are college graduates, nurses, etc.. Those that are coming across the southern border and picking your food and building your houses. How is that causing the collapse of the democratic process?

That brings us to the fallacious argument: "you seem to support a destruction of the democratic process with your support of illegal immigration."

Fun fact: It is our own ignorance to our need of immigration that is destroying the country. Why? Your team (Bush & Trump) buried us with debt. That and our demographic problem means there is only one way out - growth.

Another fun fact: Instead of making a college grad overstay his visa, immediately give the student a visa. Duh!

Another fun fact: Much of the immigration from the south is due to instability of those countries' governments (much of that sowed by the US) and climate change of which we are a major contributor. So, if you want to know how to destroy democracy - undermine the governments around you and make their countries uninhabitable. Geez, almost like we are causing our own problems. Then one party runs on the problem and won't even vote for a solution.

Fascinating.

Please stop with the fun fact stuff. Give me one issue that you would like to debate/discuss and we can do that.

Flying a plane is a bit like immigration. You don't just look at airspeed or you will crash. It is multimodal and needs a balanced approach. This goes with the political, economic along with geopolitical. The "destruction of the democratic process with your support of illegal immigration..." topic is nonsense. One only need look at immigration and the Alien and Sedition Acts of 1798 to know that this has been with us for a very long time - and we haven't collapsed.

Our biggest problem isn't "illegal" immigration - it is just the one that is being pushed as "the big problem" and is being done in a very racist manner. That we don't have a good immigration policy is far more pressing. That we had a sitting POTUS try to upend the constitution is far larger problem. That the Rs who destroyed the budget won't come up with a plan to remedy the situation is far worse. That the Rs, when presented with an opportunity to help with immigration put their collective heads in the sand and won't go forward... well, that is the pressing problem at hand.

I agree we don't have a good immigration policy.

[Wizardspride]

Read on Twitter

?t=4gQYFPQSZQovjuxIgN9NLQ&s=19

[Zonkerbl]

Zonk - I know you're an educated person so there's no way you have a reading comprehension problem. For the umpteenth time I'll post again what I've posted here at least four or five other times.

I watched a single Fox News program years ago (Bill O'Reilly show). That's it. Please commit that to memory and quit going on like a drone about Fox News. I don't watch it.

Several months ago you posted where you get your news. WaPo was one source, and I don't remember the other. Not impressive. I posted here what I read (so I won't bother repeating). I've been retired for 17 years so I have a luxury that you probably do not. I can dedicate 4 or 5 hours a day to reading a large variety of sources. Lucky me except the more one learns the more depressing our state of affairs seem.

Popper I didn't mention your name, I was responding to the other drive by idiot. But it's revealing to me that you think I'm talking to you directly. I think there is a wider derposphere that Fox News leads, you don't have to be watching Fox News to be exposed to their right wing propaganda.

I do this stuff for a living and I get a lot of my information straight from the source. If I spent 5 hours a day trying to plow through all the garbage and misinformation that's out there now I'd lose my frickin' mind. That's your problem right there, imho.

Whatever it is you are reading, it sounds like it is not doing you any favors. My advice to you would be to spend more time with your family and stop reading stuff that's adversely affecting your mental health.

P.S. If you are reading stuff five hours a day and somehow missed the fact that Trump spent a huge part of his time in office calling the free press the enemy of the people then I would recommend you stop reading whatever it is immediately and set it on fire

So that's my problem. Thanks for caring about my mental health Zonk.

your words. not mine!

[pancakes3]

The fact that people are attempting to discussing border policy itt when the leading candidate of the republican party just got bench slapped with a 67 page opinion laboriously explaining why he doesn't enjoy criminal immunity, and in the face of four criminal prosecutions while also staring down the barrel of upwards of $500M in civil judgments against him, not to mention the absolutely absurd campaign finance loopholes that are allowing him to finance his (and his kids') legal defense through campaign contributions...

what are we even doing here? am i actually getting lectured for not understanding the finer points of man's intrinsic greed? the corruption is coming from inside the house, my guy. am i getting accused of being hysterical and losing my sh*t at the state of modern politics? because yeah, i am losing my sh*t. I'm young, and i have years left on this planet, and i have to live with the consequences and for me, politics is not just a hobby for me to indulge in navelgazing. yall aren't even good at it. everything republicans try to stand on, or rather hide behind, crumbles like a sand castle. Cloward-Piven strategy? get the f out of here. that's like, precocious HS levels of smugness. pulling cheap shots at lawyers? I'm sure Clarence Thomas and Kentaji Brown-Jackson were similarly indoctrinated. That's why they think so similarly. just sheer idiocy.

so dumb. this is not a game. immigration is not a boogeyman you can just deploy every 2-4 years to score political points. people's lives, the only lives they have to live, are being affected by it. even if there are immigrant welfare queens, which there are not, we all have seen with our own eyes kids that are locked in cages. so maybe it's ok that sometimes someone gets a few hundred dollars worth of foodstamps that they didn't qualify for. this just reminded me of something insane that a CBP officer said re: child separation - "we separate kids from their parents all the time, if the parents are committing a crime." ok though but that's for actual crimes, and only violent crimes at that. the crime of illegal immigration is simply existing without documentation, that doesn't pose a threat to the child. donald trump wasn't separate from his kids and he's got 91 active felony counts against him.

the time for quippy, gentlemanly slapfights is over. there's nothing left to debate. we've drifted too far apart. everything that i wrote, guys like popper are on the other end of the spectrum also thinking "there's nothing left to debate." we have no more common ground. you would think that Donald Trump being Donald Trump is sufficient but it's not. How do you even come back from that?

Even 30 years ago, i remember that adults, presumably some of you, would look at each other, regardless of political party, and say "all politicians are corrupt," nod, and go about your business. I'll freely admit that dem politicians are corrupt as well - Nancy Pelosi's insider trading is no secret, nor do I endorse it. If I were voting in her district, I would vote her out in a heartbeat, and also support legislation restricting politicians' trading. But that comity is not afforded by the other side. Trump is Trump is Trump is Trump and anyone who opposes him, or the party, are by default idiots, pedophiles, and terrorists. Again, how do you find common ground with that?

[dckingsfan]

Read on Twitter

GOP: We are impeaching the homeland security secretary for not defending our borders.

GOP: Stop trying to get legislation passed to aid with defending our borders.

©Slacktard

[popper]

The fact that people are attempting to discussing border policy itt when the leading candidate of the republican party just got bench slapped with a 67 page opinion laboriously explaining why he doesn't enjoy criminal immunity, and in the face of four criminal prosecutions while also staring down the barrel of upwards of $500M in civil judgments against him, not to mention the absolutely absurd campaign finance loopholes that are allowing him to finance his (and his kids') legal defense through campaign contributions...

what are we even doing here? am i actually getting lectured for not understanding the finer points of man's intrinsic greed? the corruption is coming from inside the house, my guy. am i getting accused of being hysterical and losing my sh*t at the state of modern politics? because yeah, i am losing my sh*t. I'm young, and i have years left on this planet, and i have to live with the consequences and for me, politics is not just a hobby for me to indulge in navelgazing. yall aren't even good at it. everything republicans try to stand on, or rather hide behind, crumbles like a sand castle. Cloward-Piven strategy? get the f out of here. that's like, precocious HS levels of smugness. pulling cheap shots at lawyers? I'm sure Clarence Thomas and Kentaji Brown-Jackson were similarly indoctrinated. That's why they think so similarly. just sheer idiocy.

so dumb. this is not a game. immigration is not a boogeyman you can just deploy every 2-4 years to score political points. people's lives, the only lives they have to live, are being affected by it. even if there are immigrant welfare queens, which there are not, we all have seen with our own eyes kids that are locked in cages. so maybe it's ok that sometimes someone gets a few hundred dollars worth of foodstamps that they didn't qualify for. this just reminded me of something insane that a CBP officer said re: child separation - "we separate kids from their parents all the time, if the parents are committing a crime." ok though but that's for actual crimes, and only violent crimes at that. the crime of illegal immigration is simply existing without documentation, that doesn't pose a threat to the child. donald trump wasn't separate from his kids and he's got 91 active felony counts against him.

the time for quippy, gentlemanly slapfights is over. there's nothing left to debate. we've drifted too far apart. everything that i wrote, guys like popper are on the other end of the spectrum also thinking "there's nothing left to debate." we have no more common ground. you would think that Donald Trump being Donald Trump is sufficient but it's not. How do you even come back from that?

Even 30 years ago, i remember that adults, presumably some of you, would look at each other, regardless of political party, and say "all politicians are corrupt," nod, and go about your business. I'll freely admit that dem politicians are corrupt as well - Nancy Pelosi's insider trading is no secret, nor do I endorse it. If I were voting in her district, I would vote her out in a heartbeat, and also support legislation restricting politicians' trading. But that comity is not afforded by the other side. Trump is Trump is Trump is Trump and anyone who opposes him, or the party, are by default idiots, pedophiles, and terrorists. Again, how do you find common ground with that?

IMO you're overreacting a bit. I agree with you guys on a number of things, including that Trump is a narccissitic bufoon (and perhaps guilty of one or more crimes). I've said so here many times beginning in 2016. We shall see.

I also agree that we need immigrants lest our economy stall. I support increasing the number of legal immigrants and am opposed to illegal immigration. Is that an unreasonable position? I share your thoughts about the human toll that the world's destitute endure in pursuit of a better life. I suspect we disagree on the best way to lighten their load. I grew up dirt poor and my formal education is thin. I know what it feels like to struggle and lose hope through no fault of your own. It's awful and debilitating. I was fortunate and probably lucky to end up where I am (my wife and family deserve a lot of credit). Anyway, I push forward with faith, and on my best days, good will toward others (I failed here over the last 24 hours - my anger got the best of me).

Peace

[dobrojim]

Read on Twitter

?t=4gQYFPQSZQovjuxIgN9NLQ&s=19

Things were pretty quiet there for a while, then I go on a road trip
and wow…

I’m going to take a few steps back and offer this simplified historical
summary - (I was born in the mid-late1950s, maybe around when Popper
was born)

During my lifetime, in virtually every major policy debate in our country,
conservatives have used bad faith objections to stand in the way of what
would be a ‘more perfect union’. The above tweet demonstrates how few
are incapable of coherent fact based analysis. I think big money has been
incredibly effective in getting enough voters to vote against their interest
that combined with non-democratic manipulation of the rules (gerrymandering,
undemocratic Senate and Electoral college) the interests of average citizens
has not just taken a back seat, but is trying to hold onto tha crate thingie
that people use to take coolers on vacation.

My challenge is for anyone to point to a major policy debate since 1960
during which conservatives have used good faith objections to arrive at
what can now be clearly seen as the correct policy choice.

Edit - I meant to refer to the tweet above that states poll results about
who might be doing a better job.

[Zonkerbl]

I agree with pancakes that this "clowncar-nose picker" silliness is just thinly disguised bigotry trying to masquerade as high falutin "scholarship."

This is easily disputed propaganda deployed to mind control people who desperately don't want to admit they're wrong. Getting angry at this garbage being taken seriously is a natural reaction. It's a sign people in this country are willing to bow down to the evil forces trying to tear it apart.

Refusing to believe obvious lies is easy. But it's still a choice you have to make that requires a little courage.

[Zonkerbl]

Having said that, the reason people are dissatisfied in an economy with sub 4% unemployment and lower inflation is that businesses are eagerly creating crap jobs that don't pay ish. We are the most unequal of the high income countries and no one in the dem leadership even understands that it's a problem.

When people complain about immigration they're complaining about inequality in a way that's approved and encouraged by the (non-Jewish) billionaires responsible for the problem. They want poor people pointing the finger at other poor people and not them.

[Zonkerbl]

Although this article says wages have outpaced inflation and have done so MORE in low and middle income wages.

It really is a mystery why people are so unhappy. Conservatives are probably unhappy because they are obediently following the orders of their propaganda ministers. Black people are unhappy because they are 100% responsible for getting Biden elected and yet have gotten nothing in terms of student loan forgiveness, decarceration, and Dems are completely and shamelessly capitulating to the right wing's relentless anti-black propaganda campaign (CRT, DEI, banning books that make you feel guilty about slavery, etc.). Maybe if Dems developed a spine their base would be less unhappy.

Or maybe it's just a lag. Consumer confidence is increasing so that's a good sign. You have to dig yourself out of a hole first before you are less desperate about your situation.

[pancakes3]

Although this article says wages have outpaced inflation and have done so MORE in low and middle income wages.

It really is a mystery why people are so unhappy. Conservatives are probably unhappy because they are obediently following the orders of their propaganda ministers. Black people are unhappy because they are 100% responsible for getting Biden elected and yet have gotten nothing in terms of student loan forgiveness, decarceration, and Dems are completely and shamelessly capitulating to the right wing's relentless anti-black propaganda campaign (CRT, DEI, banning books that make you feel guilty about slavery, etc.). Maybe if Dems developed a spine their base would be less unhappy.

Or maybe it's just a lag. Consumer confidence is increasing so that's a good sign. You have to dig yourself out of a hole first before you are less desperate about your situation.

I don't think it's that big of a mystery. From a bipartisan perspective, the typical american voter who doesn't have formal economic training, lib or dem, when they read the economic numbers, their eyes glaze over because they really just care about:

- Inflation. When most people hear that inflation is going down, they think it means deflation, and when prices don't go down, they assume that economic numbers are bullspit. even if they intellectually know that inflation going down doesn't mean deflation, they still want deflation, and increased purchase power. Americans, especially conservatives, just have a time wrapping their heads around the fact that we'll never go back to $1 gas, and gripe about it.

- Purchasing power. Yes, we had 4% wage growth in 2023 (1% real wage growth) but we've also had 19% net inflation from Dec 2019 until now, which is when most people's mental touchstones for "normalcy" is still anchored. If we're back to normal, we expect to financially teleport ourselves back to Dec 2019. Or Jan 1981. or Jan 1953. And relatively to that, we're worse off. we'll always be worse off. and that's Biden's fault.

- They don't care about the economy at all. They don't know what to care about, and handwave at the economy as a scapegoat to mask the true reasons for their displeasure at Biden. There's always something to point to anyway, so you're covered in saying that the economy sucks under Biden, because the current late-stage capitalistic society has made it such that the economy will suck forever and always. some boomers might be happy that their 401ks are back to hitting all time highs, but still believe that R's are "better for business" without realizing that their post-retirement livelihood being tied to corporate success was by design to the very corporations where they have their money, and also gutted pensions, lobbied for lower taxes which in turn insufficiently fund social security, and never paid a fair wage during their working years anyway.

So yeah, I agree with you Zonk. The voters are frustrated. However, it's a nonstarter to enact any substantive changes to the economy (getting rid of shareholder primacy, implementing a fair corporate tax rate, capping executive compensation, etc.) so there is no amount of financial news that would actually make voters truly happy. The only way Dems can generate voter enthusiasm is to deliver on ancillary issues like student loans, decarceration, codifying Roe, etc. which... of course they haven't done. They're still running on 75% Orange Man Bad, 15% Freedom Caucus bad, and 10% jobs numbers/union support.