Official 2023-2024 Magic General Season Thread

[orlando_joe]

I think it's very debatable Goga "deserves" minutes over WCJ and Moe, they all have their strengths and weaknesses.

AB deserves to play when other guys are struggling too, esp when Fultz doesn't have it or ingles or something

i dont think black can dribble in the paint at the very least fultz can dribble in traffic and that is the #1 thing for pg ...even over scoring ..at least from what i have seen

[SOUL]

I think it's very debatable Goga "deserves" minutes over WCJ and Moe, they all have their strengths and weaknesses.

AB deserves to play when other guys are struggling too, esp when Fultz doesn't have it or ingles or something

No one is saying "over" anything... The argument has been if you earn minutes you will play.... And I'm just saying that isn't the case at all and there is more to it than that

Sent from the phone in my hands

The issue is that posters are scapegoating two particular players that have, by all accounts, played just as well if not better than Goga and AB and the only reason people want them to play is because it's a rookie and it's more fun to watch a rookie and Goga was that both were in our winning streak.. which literally doesn't mean anything. Bol Bol and Fultz were part of our long winning streak last year... does that mean they deserved to play the rest of the year?



If people think Fultz is bad out there, which he is a lot of the time, then we have to start being real about a rookie PG's impact on the game. This isn't to poo poo on Black, but just saying there are learning curves that are steep.

TS% is way better, but way lower assist rate, steal rate, higher turnover rate, lower win shares and any advanced stat. Now, once again, I don't think it's enough to make me not want to play Black at all.. but if we're thinking in the most simple terms of maybe what Mose is looking out there for besides Fultz' shooting is just all of the other little things that are better.

Listen, I wanted us to trade Fultz this entire year.. my argument isn't that he deserves to play or he should be playing starter minutes, but it's clear that all of the little things out there aren't as harmful to the team as a rookie PG trying to learn the ropes.. as much great things as AB does out there

As far as WCJ and Goga, I think Goga's impact has been more noticed, however he's not playing for two simple reasons... he can't space the floor, and he's a UFA. WCJ's defense is passable enough to actually very solid in certain matchups, while certain games we do feel the burn of not playing Goga when WCJ and Moe are getting handled.

Fans just want to win with who they think are the future here, despite not thinking to themselves, "Can they win at the same level by playing those guys as much as I want them to?" But coaches aren't going to play guys because fans are more intrigued by them, because you know DAMN well if we lose while "developing young guys" they will blame that same coach for now being able to wrangle a bunch of young guys to play well together. Well, if Pop and other great coaches can't really do that, it should show how hard it is.

[SOUL]

Like it's very easy for fans to say "Why not do both?" and it's not always that simple.

[Knightro]

Like it's very easy for fans to say "Why not do both?" and it's not always that simple.

I don't think it's possible to do both.

I just think they should have more directly picked one path over the other. There were two options in my mind...

Option 1: Black and Jett (and maybe Goga? and maybe Houstan?) all play regular rotation minutes and the Magic simply live with the consequences of younger players in key spots (aka likely less victories) in order to better position themselves for 24-25.

Option 2: Black, Jett, Goga, Houstan do NOT play regular minutes due to veterans in front of them, but the Magic use their available assets to get better veterans in here than Fultz, Harris, Ingles and possibly even Carter/Mortiz.

They chose neither of those.

They willingly chose to block multiple young players with veterans who aren't good enough to actually lead them to any tangible postseason success. They might not even make it out of the play in, ya know?

[BadMofoPimp]

Again, this is stage of nba season where you can exchange other team's garbage (or simply not needed for tanking purpose) for something valuable , even if nothing but a rental .
We had $35M of expiring money to offer.
We could take as much salary back and improve with latheral moves that have no long lasting impact. Like, simply flipping Okeke for Alec Burks or Buddy Hield for Gary Harris OR literally adding both Bojan AND Alec for Gary Harris and Okeke ( since we are below salary cap).

Long term -zero conseuences. Short term- way better team.


It's just pure nonsense to do nothing. Laziness and poor excuses.
"But they are good friends". Good. as far as i care, they can have group bukkake in offseason from April to October every day. But professional sports are about results, not about giving hand to your best buddy.

Not really purely expiring deals as Grimes and several second rounders were also involved.

To be fair, Grimes was unhappy in New York wanting more playing time. I think for all the players that were moved, the Magic were not even looking at them. Because, most of them would end up taking playing time away from our youth.

[BadMofoPimp]

Like it's very easy for fans to say "Why not do both?" and it's not always that simple.

I don't think it's possible to do both.

I just think they should have more directly picked one path over the other. There were two options in my mind...

Option 1: Black and Jett (and maybe Goga? and maybe Houstan?) all play regular rotation minutes and the Magic simply live with the consequences of younger players in key spots (aka likely less victories) in order to better position themselves for 24-25.

Option 2: Black, Jett, Goga, Houstan do NOT play regular minutes due to veterans in front of them, but the Magic use their available assets to get better veterans in here than Fultz, Harris, Ingles and possibly even Carter/Mortiz.

They chose neither of those.

They willingly chose to block multiple young players with veterans who aren't good enough to actually lead them to any tangible postseason success. They might not even make it out of the play in, ya know?

Option 3: Magic are playing for playoff position and don't intend to play players who have not earned minutes. My suggestion to those players is to work on their games before and after practice. If they are not playing, there is a reason for it. Gifting minutes doesn't mean success. Those who work the hardest usually get the minutes. The youth are under multiple year contracts, thus no need to gift minutes to rookies when the team is fighting for playoff position. If they are not playing minutes in the 2nd or 3rd season, most likely they are busts.

[Knightro]

Option 3: Magic are playing for playoff position and don't intend to play players who have not earned minutes. My suggestion to those players is to work on their games before and after practice. If they are not playing, there is a reason for it. Gifting minutes doesn't mean success. Those who work the hardest usually get the minutes. The youth are under multiple year contracts, thus no need to play rookies.

This is a narrow way of looking at it though. When you hit big on multiple lotto picks like the Magic clearly have, you have to look more broadly than just the season you're in.

Major decisions are coming up, several of which have to be made in the next 5 months.

Fultz is a free agent to be.

Gary is a free agent to be.

Ingles is a free agent to be if they want him to be.

Moritz is a free agent to be if they want him to be.

So the Magic are playing all these veterans over their youth and maybe they'll win 45 games and maybe they'll get the 6/7 seed, but the million dollar question is... what's next?

There's no way we can count on Black/Jett/Houstan/their 2024 1st round pick to actually play significant rotation minutes on a good team next year after playing so little this year.

So is the plan to resign Fultz and resign Gary and retain Ingles?

How do the Magic play better in 2024-2025 than they have this year? Are we simply banking on Paolo and Franz and Suggs all being even better than this year and ultimately that will determine the ceiling?

[SOUL]

Option 1: Black and Jett (and maybe Goga? and maybe Houstan?) all play regular rotation minutes and the Magic simply live with the consequences of younger players in key spots (aka likely less victories) in order to better position themselves for 24-25.

Scenario 2: Black, Jett, Goga, Houstan do NOT play regular minutes due to veterans in front of them, but the Magic use their available assets to get better veterans in here than Fultz, Harris, Ingles and possibly even Carter/Mortiz.

They chose neither of those.

They willingly chose to blocked multiple young players with veterans who aren't good enough to actually lead them to any tangible postseason success. They might not even make it out of the play in, ya know?

You can WIFOM any situation though with a lot of sports - why did the Packers draft Jordan Love when Aaron Rodgers needed offensive weapons that year while the Packers were competing? Love wasn't going to play and they had more pressing matters.

Well, now, a few years later Rodgers wanted out and they made it to the playoffs with the youngest roster. It didn't make sense then, but makes perfect sense from them now. And that's probably the most extreme example, because they absolutely needed help. We already have our core guys, last year's draft was extra, so finding minutes for them this year was always going to be difficult.

The NBA is in a unique spot in terms of a sport with young guys and fans expectations and opinions.

A lot of NFL position players can come in as a rookie and make a huge difference. Like not only putting up huge numbers, but the impact as well (compared to the NBA where it's usually numbers yes, impact no).

NHL and MLB usually have them come along pretty slowly, you'll have some of them in the NHL playing right away, while others come in slowly over the next year, while baseball takes anywhere from 2-5 years to fully integrate them.

The NBA has a lot of these guys playing right away super raw, 80% actively hurting the team in hopes they'll help more later on in the year or next season, and fans think we have to play every player right away or it's going to hurt their development.

Sorry, but the goalposts are moving a bit with posters when it comes to losing in the 1st round or being competitive in the play ins, because many of us said that was the goal this year. Why is it suddenly now on the terms of "Well, we have to do it with Jett, Black, Goga and Houstan playing because, well, they need to play!"

Obviously, this discussion changes if we don't have a plan moving forward with our first round picks, but I look at it as I do every other surprisingly solid team that also were in a unique situation where that got really good all of a sudden or they had a year of injuries that now see themselves having rookies that might hurt their short term impact.

Personally? I thought we were moving the 11th pick or would've moved back to pick a senior sort of guy like Jaquez. But if we're looking at it moving forward, there is a slot for him next year as a bench gunner.

I just don't think there has to be a situation where we're suddenly all down on making the playoffs just so we can get more 1st round picks on the floor because.. fans want to see them play more? Not sure I even quite understand the argument of not getting playoff experience for the guys.

[SOUL]

Like, if you can guarantee to me that playing all of these young guys would leave us in the same spot as playing other guys instead, sign me up because there's a bunch of guys without futures on the team.

I just think there's a big difference between a great stretch where guys filled in fine when opposing teams couldn't adjust much early on, versus actively relying upon these rookies, Goga, and a streaky Houstan after teams know what to expect.

And it would be an absolute failure if that team flaccidly limped into play-ins and lost in the direction of "Gotta play youth, because it's black and white!"

[eyriq]

Like it's very easy for fans to say "Why not do both?" and it's not always that simple.

I don't think it's possible to do both.

I just think they should have more directly picked one path over the other. There were two options in my mind...

Option 1: Black and Jett (and maybe Goga? and maybe Houstan?) all play regular rotation minutes and the Magic simply live with the consequences of younger players in key spots (aka likely less victories) in order to better position themselves for 24-25.

Option 2: Black, Jett, Goga, Houstan do NOT play regular minutes due to veterans in front of them, but the Magic use their available assets to get better veterans in here than Fultz, Harris, Ingles and possibly even Carter/Mortiz.

They chose neither of those.

They willingly chose to block multiple young players with veterans who aren't good enough to actually lead them to any tangible postseason success. They might not even make it out of the play in, ya know?

The purist in me wishes they had traded Fultz, Cole, and Harris last season for journeymen and draft capital, and then handed AB and Jett roles in the rotation. In retrospect we would not have been sacrificing much as Fultz and Harris have not contributed to winning this season, while Cole has disappeared.

They didn't because they thought the "family" culture was a differentiator and they had unfinished business.

[Knightro]

I just don't think there has to be a situation where we're suddenly all down on making the playoffs just so we can get more 1st round picks on the floor because.. fans want to see them play more? Not sure I even quite understand the argument of not getting playoff experience for the guys.

To be clear, I'm not down on making the playoffs at all. I am having fun watching things play out this season and want the Magic to go as far as they possibly can.

That said...

I'm simply not at all confident in the front office's long-term vision based on how they've approached this season and how they've opted to construct the roster.

Maybe they'll surprise me this summer, but I'm highly skeptical.

[eyriq]

Like, if you can guarantee to me that playing all of these young guys would leave us in the same spot as playing other guys instead, sign me up because there's a bunch of guys without futures on the team.

I just think there's a big difference between a great stretch where guys filled in fine when opposing teams couldn't adjust much early on, versus actively relying upon these rookies, Goga, and a streaky Houstan after teams know what to expect.

And it would be an absolute failure if that team flaccidly limped into play-ins and lost in the direction of "Gotta play youth, because it's black and white!"

I think the counterfactual that we could play rooks at a low cost to winning is somewhat supported by the minimal impact of Fultz and Harris so far. Like, given Franz, Suggs, and Paolo, what's the marginal impact of AB/Jett over Fultz/Harris?

[SOUL]

I just don't think there has to be a situation where we're suddenly all down on making the playoffs just so we can get more 1st round picks on the floor because.. fans want to see them play more? Not sure I even quite understand the argument of not getting playoff experience for the guys.

To be clear, I'm not down on making the playoffs at all. I am having fun watching things play out this season and want the Magic to go as far as they possibly can.

That said...

I'm simply not at all confident in the front office's long-term vision based on how they've approached this season and how they've opted to construct the roster.

Maybe they'll surprise me this summer, but I'm highly skeptical.

That's certainly a real concern. There isn't much you can point at with any confidence and say, "I trust them to make the right sort of deals when the timing is right." - considering we could've made some trades at the deadline.

I'm more speaking to the shiny new toy syndrome/playing young guys instead.

Like, we could say Houstan should play more - he had chances and was very streaky and people were wanting him benched as much as we want Gary benched.

I showed the advanced stats of AB out there - solid flashes but really isn't providing much more impact than a broken Fultz.

Cole actually was a big part of why we got off to a great start this year, despite him being horrific right now.

Jett is a complete hypothetical that probably is a streakier Jordan Hawkins type of impact.

I guarantee you fans would be annoyed if we sucked while playing these guys.

[thelead]

Philly is about to lose another one. We'll only be back 2.5 games now.

[eyriq]

I just don't think there has to be a situation where we're suddenly all down on making the playoffs just so we can get more 1st round picks on the floor because.. fans want to see them play more? Not sure I even quite understand the argument of not getting playoff experience for the guys.

To be clear, I'm not down on making the playoffs at all. I am having fun watching things play out this season and want the Magic to go as far as they possibly can.

That said...

I'm simply not at all confident in the front office's long-term vision based on how they've approached this season and how they've opted to construct the roster.

Maybe they'll surprise me this summer, but I'm highly skeptical.

That's certainly a real concern. There isn't much you can point at with any confidence and say, "I trust them to make the right sort of deals when the timing is right." - considering we could've made some trades at the deadline.

I'm more speaking to the shiny new toy syndrome/playing young guys instead.

Like, we could say Houstan should play more - he had chances and was very streaky and people were wanting him benched as much as we want Gary benched.

I showed the advanced stats of AB out there - solid flashes but really isn't providing much more impact than a broken Fultz.

Cole actually was a big part of why we got off to a great start this year, despite him being horrific right now.

Jett is a complete hypothetical that probably is a streakier Jordan Hawkins type of impact.

I guarantee you fans would be annoyed if we sucked while playing these guys.

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[BadMofoPimp]

Option 3: Magic are playing for playoff position and don't intend to play players who have not earned minutes. My suggestion to those players is to work on their games before and after practice. If they are not playing, there is a reason for it. Gifting minutes doesn't mean success. Those who work the hardest usually get the minutes. The youth are under multiple year contracts, thus no need to play rookies.

This is a narrow way of looking at it though. When you hit big on multiple lotto picks like the Magic clearly have, you have to look more broadly than just the season you're in.

Major decisions are coming up, several of which have to be made in the next 5 months.

Fultz is a free agent to be.

Gary is a free agent to be.

Ingles is a free agent to be if they want him to be.

Moritz is a free agent to be if they want him to be.

So the Magic are playing all these veterans over their youth and maybe they'll win 45 games and maybe they'll get the 6/7 seed, but the million dollar question is... what's next?

There's no way we can count on Black/Jett/Houstan/their 2024 1st round pick to actually play significant rotation minutes on a good team next year after playing so little this year.

So is the plan to resign Fultz and resign Gary and retain Ingles?

How do the Magic play better in 2024-2025 than they have this year? Are we simply banking on Paolo and Franz and Suggs all being even better than this year and ultimately that will determine the ceiling?

Yes, Suggs, Paolo and Franz will continue to improve. Ingles and Harris will most likely walk. Moritz will be resigned. Not sure on Fultz as he may be brought back. If Black/Jett get better, they will play more minutes next year. As far as free agency, the team could replace those not resigned with others. It is possible that a summer trade happens. But, I don't see a reason at this juncture when trying to get that 6th seed where the Magic should regress by playing Jett and/or Black until they earn their minutes and can contribute to the teams overall performance. Lets say Jett is a bust or cannot compete at the NBA level yet for all we know, there is zero reason to play him. I would like to see Black play more minutes.

[fendilim]

Again, this is stage of nba season where you can exchange other team's garbage (or simply not needed for tanking purpose) for something valuable , even if nothing but a rental .
We had $35M of expiring money to offer.
We could take as much salary back and improve with latheral moves that have no long lasting impact. Like, simply flipping Okeke for Alec Burks or Buddy Hield for Gary Harris OR literally adding both Bojan AND Alec for Gary Harris and Okeke ( since we are below salary cap).

Long term -zero conseuences. Short term- way better team.


It's just pure nonsense to do nothing. Laziness and poor excuses.
"But they are good friends". Good. as far as i care, they can have group bukkake in offseason from April to October every day. But professional sports are about results, not about giving hand to your best buddy.

Not really purely expiring deals as Grimes and several second rounders were also involved.

To be fair, Grimes was unhappy in New York wanting more playing time. I think for all the players that were moved, the Magic were not even looking at them. Because, most of them would end up taking playing time away from our youth.

True, but Grimes is still an asset. He is worth more than guys like Okeke. And definitely Cole because the pistons have a glutton of guards as well

[Skybox]

I’m not getting this whole idea that the problem is whether or not AB should “earn” Fultz’ minutes…the FO should not be limited by those choices. Fultz beating AB up & down the practice court doesn’t make him a good enough PG to lead this team. By the same token, AB, even as #6 draft choice, has no claim to the job.

DOESNT MATTER…NEITHER ONE IS GOOD ENOUGH

Why is our menu limited to these two choices? We should have upgraded, either marginally (Tyus or Monte), significantly (Brogdon), or tremendously (Murray). It’s malpractice by Weltman.

Fultz isn’t getting better. Black probably will…so keep him. Fultz should have been trade filler, but now he’s the best bad PG on the team, so play him because we’re a playoff team. He should be a buyout candidate, not a starting option…but they did nothing - and they’ll probably re-sign him because AB may not have earned the starting job by the time the playoff whooping is over.

[SOUL]

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[J the Drafter]

The FO was never going to dump Fultz when he’s on his tenth game of the season after missing the early part with knee tendinitis. They surely expect him to play better as he gets acclimated to NBA basketball.