Did OKC mismanage the former Euroleague MVP?

Moderators: Domejandro, ken6199, Dirk, infinite11285, Clav, bwgood77, bisme37, zimpy27, KingDavid, cupcakesnake

Jadoogar
RealGM
Posts: 17,441
And1: 17,094
Joined: May 06, 2010
   

Re: Did OKC badly mismanage the former Euroleague MVP? 

Post#81 » by Jadoogar » Mon Feb 12, 2024 4:33 pm

Braggins wrote:I don't think they mismanaged him as much as they are just a stacked team with a bunch of good guards and had to make tough decisions not playing guys that could get minutes for other teams. He looked solid in his minutes for OKC, but they just didn't need really need him for more than like 10 minutes a game.


Nate Duncan pointed out that they didn't really need him because they don't play a traditional P&R style.
I think Hayward increased their ceiling because he can be in a closing lineup in the playoffs.
ChuckChilly
Analyst
Posts: 3,491
And1: 3,280
Joined: Jun 30, 2011
Location: Atlanta
 

Re: Did OKC mismanage the former Euroleague MVP? 

Post#82 » by ChuckChilly » Mon Feb 12, 2024 4:51 pm

Wish he would have went to the Hawks. Could use a back up like him.
User avatar
Jamaaliver
Forum Mod - Hawks
Forum Mod - Hawks
Posts: 46,185
And1: 17,487
Joined: Sep 22, 2005
Location: Officially a citizen of the World...
Contact:
     

Re: Did OKC mismanage the former Euroleague MVP? 

Post#83 » by Jamaaliver » Mon Feb 12, 2024 5:14 pm

It's "The Pokusevski Paradigm" at work.

Spoiler:
Jamaaliver wrote:I think one of the issues that most bothers me is that some teams (looking at you OKC) literally don't have the roster spots to even house all the draft picks they own.

Meaning a number of the draftees (new and past) will not get the development, reps, PT they'd normally receive if the picks were evenly distributed among the league. There'll be dozens of 19-20 year-olds the next few seasons who will fall out of the league after a rookie contract -- simply because they needed more time to develop but couldn't get it on an already overly young roster.

A ton of young guys will become NBA vagabonds as a result.



Let's call it "The Pokusevski Paradigm".
Exp0sed
General Manager
Posts: 8,101
And1: 7,519
Joined: Feb 10, 2022

Re: Did OKC badly mismanage the former Euroleague MVP? 

Post#84 » by Exp0sed » Mon Feb 12, 2024 7:07 pm

KGtabake wrote:
BHF wrote:
JayMKE wrote:Probably not, a lot of these euro MVPs aren't really playable in the NBA; Juan Carlos Narvarro, Vassilis Spanoulis, Šarūnas Jasikevičius, Nando de Colo


Not one of these guys you mentioned have their last name end with ic :) Players from former Yugo are just on a different level. If Ibrahimovic picked up a basketball he would have been a NBA superstar.



To be fair. Jasikevicius was a genius.
I believe he would have been perfect in today's NBA.


Sarunas is one of my fave players ever but he was a sub-par defender even in Europe
he might could do well in a certain bench role but he's defense would be way too bad, he'd be hunted on every possession

on offense, the current game would def suit him but not enough to make up for his D
Mirotic12
Head Coach
Posts: 6,608
And1: 3,079
Joined: Jun 29, 2014

Re: Did OKC mismanage the former Euroleague MVP? 

Post#85 » by Mirotic12 » Mon Feb 12, 2024 7:30 pm

Dirk wrote:I had to double check, but this guy along with another Euroleague demigod, Shane Larkin, destroyed the competition.


Shane Larkin isn't a EuroLeague demi god. He's never managed to do anything in Europe, other than when he was playing in a stacked Efes team. Baskonia didn't do anything with him, and Efes has done nothing with him since Micic left.

He's also never done a thing with Turkey's national team. He's nowhere remotely near to being a EuroLeague demi god. He's not even the best American point guard in EuroLeague.

JayMKE wrote:Probably not, a lot of these euro MVPs aren't really playable in the NBA; Juan Carlos Narvarro, Vassilis Spanoulis, Šarūnas Jasikevičius, Nando de Colo


Sarunas Jasikevicius was never EuroLeague MVP.

Godymas wrote:no and Euroleague is a joke and the awards winners are not actually indicative of anything. Reminder that Doncic was the Euroleague MVP at 18 and won literally everything that year and he comes into the NBA and has a very good rookie year before adjusting and becoming a superstar.


Luka won the EuroLeague MVP at age 19. At age 18, he was like Real's 7th-8th man.

SomeBunghole wrote:The issue with nearly all the Euroleague MVPs(and even "lesser" stars) coming over is that they are already in their mid or late 20s and already established players. They're not 19-20 year old prospects who may end up carving out one of many possible roles in the NBA; from star to solid rotation or role player. The likes of Vezenkov, Micić, Navarro, Spanoulis, Teodosić and others are already stars in Europe, which by definition means they are the focus of an offense and in modern basketball primary ball handlers. You don't get very many role players coming over from Europe.

The problem becomes that in the NBA, these guys aren't likely to be given the same role and they end up struggling. Of course, some/many of these guys would struggle even if given that role because the NBA is too fast and too good for them, and some might also struggle even though they're potentially good enough for this role but it takes time to adjust to a different game and a different situation. Being older, it's also not likely they will wanna hang around for a few years while adjusting and learning because they can go back to Europe and make similar money and be "the man" again. NBA teams also may not wanna spend 2 seasons developing a guy who's already in his late 20s.


Sasha Vezenkov was always a pure role player his whole career in Europe. Even in his MVP season. He's always been a role player on every team he's been on. His role in Olympiacos' offense was to catch the ball after it redirects, or after a kick out, and then shoot it. That was the extent of his whole role on offense, which is the same exact role he has in the NBA on offense. And he for sure has never played with the ball in his hands at any level of competition, not even at the youth levels.

Juan Carlos Navarro - while he was not a role player in EuroLeague, he also never played with the ball in his hands, at any point in his career, not even at the junior levels. Even during his peak, he never played with the ball in his hands. He actually had the same role on offense in the NBA - mainly shooting 3s off of screens, and shooting floaters and runners in the lane, off of screens.

And actually, you get a lot of guys that were role players in EuroLeague in the NBA. In fact, the vast majority of NBA players that came from EuroLeague were role players in that league. Many of them, especially the draft picks, were scrubs in EuroLeague.
heezyo2o
Starter
Posts: 2,406
And1: 1,343
Joined: Oct 16, 2004

Re: Did OKC mismanage the former Euroleague MVP? 

Post#86 » by heezyo2o » Mon Feb 12, 2024 7:51 pm

Did Micic have other offers? If he expected time, why would he sign with a team that's loaded at that position and had just drafted another guard
Mirotic12
Head Coach
Posts: 6,608
And1: 3,079
Joined: Jun 29, 2014

Re: Did OKC mismanage the former Euroleague MVP? 

Post#87 » by Mirotic12 » Mon Feb 12, 2024 7:52 pm

Chuck Everett wrote:
Godymas wrote:
EmpireFalls wrote:There is a 0.0% chance Hayward would be healthy enough to win a Euroleague MVP.


you do realize that Micic won the MVP playing in 34 games for 1 season and 40 in another

Outside of the season where Hayward snapped his leg in Boston he's played at the bare minimum 44 games

and these aren't cases of him playing 20, getting injured, and then playing 20

no he's playing all those games in a row


Euroleague doesn't mean they don't play games against their domestic competition well. Those guys usually play 70-80 overall.


These days, the EuroLeague teams are typically averaging around 80-85 games played a season, and some of them play more than that.
EmpireFalls
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,400
And1: 8,788
Joined: Jun 16, 2015
   

Re: Did OKC mismanage the former Euroleague MVP? 

Post#88 » by EmpireFalls » Mon Feb 12, 2024 7:54 pm

Mirotic12 wrote:
Chuck Everett wrote:
Godymas wrote:
you do realize that Micic won the MVP playing in 34 games for 1 season and 40 in another

Outside of the season where Hayward snapped his leg in Boston he's played at the bare minimum 44 games

and these aren't cases of him playing 20, getting injured, and then playing 20

no he's playing all those games in a row


Euroleague doesn't mean they don't play games against their domestic competition well. Those guys usually play 70-80 overall.


These days, the EuroLeague teams are typically averaging around 80-85 games played a season, and some of them play more than that.

The dude making that comment probably has never even clicked on a Euroleague team's wikipedia page much less watched a game much less actually followed a European season lol.
Mirotic12
Head Coach
Posts: 6,608
And1: 3,079
Joined: Jun 29, 2014

Re: Did OKC badly mismanage the former Euroleague MVP? 

Post#89 » by Mirotic12 » Mon Feb 12, 2024 7:59 pm

Exp0sed wrote:
KGtabake wrote:
BHF wrote:
Not one of these guys you mentioned have their last name end with ic :) Players from former Yugo are just on a different level. If Ibrahimovic picked up a basketball he would have been a NBA superstar.



To be fair. Jasikevicius was a genius.
I believe he would have been perfect in today's NBA.


Sarunas is one of my fave players ever but he was a sub-par defender even in Europe
he might could do well in a certain bench role but he's defense would be way too bad, he'd be hunted on every possession

on offense, the current game would def suit him but not enough to make up for his D


I loved Jasikevicius as a player, and he was a genius on offense. One of my all time favorite players ever in Europe. But saying he was just sub-par on defense in Europe is being too generous. When he was on Panathinaikos, they always had Spanoulis and Calathes guard all of the quick and athletic guards, and they always had Diamantidis or someone else guard wings that could score. Jasikevicius would guard wings that were defensive specialists, or something like that. That doesn't happen by mistake or coincidence.
KembaWalker
RealGM
Posts: 11,955
And1: 13,582
Joined: Dec 22, 2011

Re: Did OKC mismanage the former Euroleague MVP? 

Post#90 » by KembaWalker » Mon Feb 12, 2024 8:10 pm

heezyo2o wrote:Did Micic have other offers? If he expected time, why would he sign with a team that's loaded at that position and had just drafted another guard


Pretty sure they had his draft rights, he didn’t have a choice
Richard Miller
Veteran
Posts: 2,940
And1: 2,994
Joined: Jan 24, 2011

Re: Did OKC mismanage the former Euroleague MVP? 

Post#91 » by Richard Miller » Mon Feb 12, 2024 8:15 pm

KembaWalker wrote:
heezyo2o wrote:Did Micic have other offers? If he expected time, why would he sign with a team that's loaded at that position and had just drafted another guard


Pretty sure they had his draft rights, he didn’t have a choice


Yup, correct
SomeBunghole
Rookie
Posts: 1,101
And1: 2,104
Joined: Feb 10, 2008
     

Re: Did OKC mismanage the former Euroleague MVP? 

Post#92 » by SomeBunghole » Mon Feb 12, 2024 8:45 pm

Mirotic12 wrote:And actually, you get a lot of guys that were role players in EuroLeague in the NBA. In fact, the vast majority of NBA players that came from EuroLeague were role players in that league. Many of them, especially the draft picks, were scrubs in EuroLeague.


I'm not going to get into the ludicrous issue of whether a league's MVP(!!!) is a role player, but I very clearly pointed out that I'm not talking about young kids. I'm talking about guys, whether drafted or not, who come over in their late 20s. I don't think many of those were role players, but then again, if you consider a man who was the EL MVP and the MVP of the Greek league 3 times a role player, who the **** isn't a role player?
MiltownMadness
Assistant Coach
Posts: 3,799
And1: 2,304
Joined: Mar 23, 2010

Re: Did OKC mismanage the former Euroleague MVP? 

Post#93 » by MiltownMadness » Mon Feb 12, 2024 9:30 pm

stillgotgame wrote:Who? A 30 year old rookie back PG had 18/9 in a game between 2 bottom feeders. If he's not from Euro league this never get's close to being mentioned.
There should be a separate forum for Euro league players, I'm serious.

I'm sure this is an exciting story for 6-7 people but why aren't we talking about GG Jackson? He's a 19 year old rookie 2nd round pick with Memphis that's been lighting it up lately.

Not a bad point. This 30 year old guy has a chance to be a 10th man on the worst team in the league, why is a thread even being made besides the fact he played in Europe? Weird
Mirotic12
Head Coach
Posts: 6,608
And1: 3,079
Joined: Jun 29, 2014

Re: Did OKC mismanage the former Euroleague MVP? 

Post#94 » by Mirotic12 » Mon Feb 12, 2024 9:37 pm

SomeBunghole wrote:I'm not going to get into the ludicrous issue of whether a league's MVP(!!!) is a role player, but I very clearly pointed out that I'm not talking about young kids. I'm talking about guys, whether drafted or not, who come over in their late 20s. I don't think many of those were role players, but then again, if you consider a man who was the EL MVP and the MVP of the Greek league 3 times a role player, who the **** isn't a role player?


Vezenkov has been a role player on all the teams he played on in Europe. I watched him play in Aris, in Barca, and in Olympiacos. He was always a role player. Again, he had the same type of role on offense in Europe that he has on the Kings. That type of role on offense has always been a role that is for role players.

The criteria for league MVP awards in Europe has absolutely no resemblance or similarity of any kind at all to what the criteria is for an NBA MVP, or for North American sports leagues in general.

There have been multiple EuroLeague MVPs that were bench players for their teams. There is no way that any bench player would ever win an NBA MVP.

It is perfectly possible for role players to win EuroLeague MVP. There is nothing unusual about it. In fact, there have been several EuroLeague MVPs that were role players on their teams. Even Kirilenko was a role player on CSKA. He was like a mega version of a role player, but a role player nonetheless. He was like the 5th option on offense or something like that. There is no scenario whatsoever where a 4 or 5 option on offense wins an NBA MVP.

It's two completely different things, and Vezenkov is just one of several EuroLeague MVPs that were role players.
stillgotgame
Analyst
Posts: 3,562
And1: 2,346
Joined: May 27, 2005
     

Re: Did OKC mismanage the former Euroleague MVP? 

Post#95 » by stillgotgame » Tue Feb 13, 2024 3:27 am

2/3/4 with 2 TO and 3 fouls in 21 minutes tonight. Just a guy.

Congrats to the Hornets on the win though. Seth Curry and Grant Williams are a couple good bench vets.
SomeBunghole
Rookie
Posts: 1,101
And1: 2,104
Joined: Feb 10, 2008
     

Re: Did OKC mismanage the former Euroleague MVP? 

Post#96 » by SomeBunghole » Tue Feb 13, 2024 3:46 am

Mirotic12 wrote:Vezenkov has been a role player on all the teams he played on in Europe. I watched him play in Aris, in Barca, and in Olympiacos. He was always a role player. Again, he had the same type of role on offense in Europe that he has on the Kings. That type of role on offense has always been a role that is for role players.


Okay, so Vezenkov isn't a star. Who was the star on that team then? Who did offense revolve around and how come that guy didn't come to the NBA instead of Vezenkov then?

Are we talking Walkup here? Papanikolaou?
EmpireFalls
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,400
And1: 8,788
Joined: Jun 16, 2015
   

Re: Did OKC mismanage the former Euroleague MVP? 

Post#97 » by EmpireFalls » Tue Feb 13, 2024 5:15 am

stillgotgame wrote:2/3/4 with 2 TO and 3 fouls in 21 minutes tonight. Just a guy.

Congrats to the Hornets on the win though. Seth Curry and Grant Williams are a couple good bench vets.

He sets the table really well for the team though. His impact in those 21 minutes was very very high. Numerous “hockey assists” and started breaks. Guy is an outlier level passing talent.
sunsbg
Head Coach
Posts: 6,492
And1: 5,595
Joined: Feb 29, 2016

Re: Did OKC mismanage the former Euroleague MVP? 

Post#98 » by sunsbg » Tue Feb 13, 2024 6:30 am

SomeBunghole wrote:
Mirotic12 wrote:Vezenkov has been a role player on all the teams he played on in Europe. I watched him play in Aris, in Barca, and in Olympiacos. He was always a role player. Again, he had the same type of role on offense in Europe that he has on the Kings. That type of role on offense has always been a role that is for role players.


Okay, so Vezenkov isn't a star. Who was the star on that team then? Who did offense revolve around and how come that guy didn't come to the NBA instead of Vezenkov then?

Are we talking Walkup here? Papanikolaou?


The guy has bias against Vezenkov based on past comments as well. Probably a Panathinaikos fan who hates the rival Oly is my guess. Vezenkov had the stats and wins last few years, the criteria in any league, to be called star of the league. Debating this is laughable and clearly shows an agenda. Yes, EL is inferior league talent-wise. It's true Vezenkov's skillset and mindset is more of a role player though when tasked to lead Bulgarian team in EU Cup that included NBA stars, he was up there in the stat leaders.

NBA is just a different league. FIBA stars coming over at late 20s even need to unlearn things and become more selfish to be successful. Then being below average athletically doesn't help with getting used to the pace of the league. On the other side, a lot of NBA stars don't look as shiney in FIBA tournaments under different rules either.
txusto
Sophomore
Posts: 138
And1: 163
Joined: Jun 26, 2015

Re: Did OKC badly mismanage the former Euroleague MVP? 

Post#99 » by txusto » Tue Feb 13, 2024 8:16 am

JayMKE wrote:Probably not, a lot of these euro MVPs aren't really playable in the NBA; Juan Carlos Narvarro, Vassilis Spanoulis, Šarūnas Jasikevičius, Nando de Colo


I respectfully disagree.

Navarro did ok but he played for peanuts and had to play more than 3 million $ to his former team, so he came back.
Spanoulis was home sick.
Sarunas wasn't given the floor general role he deserved.
De Colo had a better offer to come back playing in Europe.
KGtabake
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,819
And1: 7,816
Joined: Jan 28, 2019

Re: Did OKC mismanage the former Euroleague MVP? 

Post#100 » by KGtabake » Tue Feb 13, 2024 8:20 am

sunsbg wrote:
SomeBunghole wrote:
Mirotic12 wrote:Vezenkov has been a role player on all the teams he played on in Europe. I watched him play in Aris, in Barca, and in Olympiacos. He was always a role player. Again, he had the same type of role on offense in Europe that he has on the Kings. That type of role on offense has always been a role that is for role players.


Okay, so Vezenkov isn't a star. Who was the star on that team then? Who did offense revolve around and how come that guy didn't come to the NBA instead of Vezenkov then?

Are we talking Walkup here? Papanikolaou?


The guy has bias against Vezenkov based on past comments as well. Probably a Panathinaikos fan who hates the rival Oly is my guess. Vezenkov had the stats and wins last few years, the criteria in any league, to be called star of the league. Debating this is laughable and clearly shows an agenda. Yes, EL is inferior league talent-wise. It's true Vezenkov's skillset and mindset is more of a role player though when tasked to lead Bulgarian team in EU Cup that included NBA stars, he was up there in the stat leaders.

NBA is just a different league. FIBA stars coming over at late 20s even need to unlearn things and become more selfish to be successful. Then being below average athletically doesn't help with getting used to the pace of the league. On the other side, a lot of NBA stars don't look as shiney in FIBA tournaments under different rules either.



No he is Olympiacos fan.
I'm a Panathinaikos fan :wink:
Vezenkov was deservedly the MVP of EuroLeague imo.
I don't know about "star", since i don't think that any player in Europe fits the "star" criteria nowadays but he definitely was not a role player.

Return to The General Board