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Two slivers of hope, draft depth and expiring contracts

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Two slivers of hope, draft depth and expiring contracts 

Post#1 » by dagger » Tue Feb 13, 2024 4:59 pm

With the last two depressing losses, I thought you all could use a tiny bit of hope.

1. According to Jonathan Givorny of ESPN, the depth of the next draft is perking up. Now, there still is no one in the top slots that says franchise player, or future GOAT, but depth in good rotation players is beginning to improve, so a mid-teen lottery pick like our Indiana pick or the Detroit second ought to help rebuild the roster.

Read on Twitter

Is this shaping up to be a relatively deep draft after all?

One year ago, I went on "The Lowe Post" podcast and said "this is the worst high school [senior] class we've seen in 20 years," referencing the group of now freshman prospects expected to be the backbone of this year's draft class, adding that "I wouldn't want to be picking at the top of next year's [2024] draft."

A year later, I feel similarly. Unlike when the San Antonio Spurs landed Victor Wembanyama last season, it's not worth going through the misery of the seasons the Detroit Pistons, Washington Wizards or Spurs are currently having to end up with the best odds on lottery night this year.

We are far from the type of star power atop the 2024 NBA draft we've come to expect over the past decade, in terms of prospects you can reasonably hope will develop into franchise-caliber or All-Star-type players.

The lack of talent in the 2024 draft is no longer a controversial opinion to have among NBA executives, where it is a frequent topic.

Some have taken that several steps further, universally panning the 2024 draft as a bad class -- not just at the top -- but as a whole for the entire first and second rounds. However, that does not appear to be accurate based on what we've seen thus far and what is certain to come between now and June.

I would argue that this is shaping up to be a relatively deep draft, not that different from years prior in terms of the number of players likely to have productive NBA careers. Finding players to take off our Top 100 prospect rankings isn't that easy. There are a lot of good players in college this year, especially upperclassmen, and it's one of the better drafts we've seen in a while on the international front.

Several college players elected to go back to school at the 2023 withdrawal deadline, and that will very likely be the case again this year. There's certain to be significant movement still as the biggest games of the college basketball regular season are about to unfold in the coming weeks, followed by conference tournaments, the NCAA tournament and the pre-draft process.

Last February, not many people had Bilal Coulibaly (No. 8 pick), Kobe Bufkin (No. 15), Brandin Podziemski (No. 19), Olivier-Maxence Prosper (No. 24) or Ben Sheppard (No. 26) slated as high as they ended up going in 2023, and there will be plenty of similar cases this year.

That's why it did not surprise me to see long-term-thinking front offices such as Toronto, Utah and Washington acquire extra 2024 draft assets over the past few weeks. History says there will be good NBA players selected in the middle and end of the first round, as well as in the second round. Teams are just going to have to work a little harder this year to find them. -- Jonathan Givony



2, Expiring contracts... John Hollinger's take is that teams are becoming more conscious of the value in large expiring contracts if they want to acquire significant talent by trade. And so he is reversing his thought that the Raptors will just waive Bruce Brown's 2024-25 team option, but may opt to keep him for trade purposes.

Some excerpts, since this is behind the paywall.

Welcome to “Next Year.” Yes, there is still a season to play out and a wide-open title race, and several teams used the trade deadline to address needs that may come up between now and June.

But even more, the trade deadline has become the de facto start of the 2024-25 season. Most of last week’s trades were made with at least one eye (if not both) on the roster-building challenges that teams will face in the year ahead, especially those teams who are over the luxury-tax apron.


We saw this need for flexibility come up in a couple of other places, notably Toronto and Memphis.

For instance, I said last week there was no chance Bruce Brown’s $23 million team option for next year get picked up, and thus that it was surprising the Raptors didn’t get something for him before the deadline. Upon further review, I may have spoken out of turn. There is, actually, one really good reason to pick up it up, which is to use it as a de facto trade exception later in the year. While the Raptors seem angled more toward being a cap room team this summer by declining Brown’s option, they can easily pivot to using only some of the room and then having Brown’s expiring contract soak up the rest.
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Re: Two slivers of hope, draft depth and expiring contracts 

Post#2 » by Chandan » Tue Feb 13, 2024 5:02 pm

Good thing we traded for Ochai with one of the picks!
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Re: Two slivers of hope, draft depth and expiring contracts 

Post#3 » by Tor_Raps » Tue Feb 13, 2024 5:07 pm

Chandan wrote:Good thing we traded for Ochai with one of the picks!


Heard he's here to lay down brick after brick to help with the housing crises. Just let him play out the season and we should meet our quota for the year lol.
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Re: Two slivers of hope, draft depth and expiring contracts 

Post#4 » by dagger » Tue Feb 13, 2024 5:14 pm

Chandan wrote:Good thing we traded for Ochai with one of the picks!


There was no way they were going to use three firsts (or two) plus the Pistons pick, and Olynyk alone is capable of offsetting some of that value surrendered.
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Re: Two slivers of hope, draft depth and expiring contracts 

Post#5 » by Chandan » Tue Feb 13, 2024 5:22 pm

dagger wrote:
Chandan wrote:Good thing we traded for Ochai with one of the picks!


There was no way they were going to use three firsts (or two) plus the Pistons pick, and Olynyk alone is capable of offsetting some of that value surrendered.


Olynyk is a unrestricted free agent. And I don't see the difference between having 4 rookies (sending 2 to D league) in opposed to 3 rookies and Ochai, except none of those rookies have busted yet.

Maybe bust is a strong word. But another franchise has taken a crack at it and obviously didn't like what they saw.
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Re: Two slivers of hope, draft depth and expiring contracts 

Post#6 » by ItsDanger » Tue Feb 13, 2024 5:25 pm

If you had 4 picks in top 35, there would be options to trade at least one of them to move up or down or out of draft. There always is. The important part is to not clutter your roster with low upside players. Salary floor (a poorly thought out change) does complicated things.

Team could draft 2 19 yr olds and 2 4 year college guys to reduce perceived development demands. Nobody can tell me that a lot of 4 year guys can't fill the #8-10 spots immediately. They can.
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Re: Two slivers of hope, draft depth and expiring contracts 

Post#7 » by Dalek » Tue Feb 13, 2024 5:31 pm

dagger wrote:
Chandan wrote:Good thing we traded for Ochai with one of the picks!


There was no way they were going to use three firsts (or two) plus the Pistons pick, and Olynyk alone is capable of offsetting some of that value surrendered.


What our FO does is compound issues. Having three firsts is not a problem in any sense and making a trade on draft night is really common if we do not want to keep the pick.

What we have done is worse than keeping the status quo.

We added Kelly Olynyk who is a great person but he really should be on a contending team playing 20 minutes and possibly winning a title, not eeking out his remaining years with a terrible team. Bobby makes these justifications that he will bring calm to the bench, when reality we just need to be patient and bring in talent. Poor KO is like Thad Young now, and stuck wasting years here. Young at least made a break for the Suns now - they wanted him for a couple years.

Secondly, we now have Ochai Agbaji who was the rare lotto pick traded twice within his rookie deal, who can't shoot and looks like any average G-Leaguer. Now we are stuck playing and developing him. I don't think teams hide away talented players and Ochai is definitely not one of them.
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Re: Two slivers of hope, draft depth and expiring contracts 

Post#8 » by Yeezus_ » Tue Feb 13, 2024 5:33 pm

Chandan wrote:
dagger wrote:
Chandan wrote:Good thing we traded for Ochai with one of the picks!


There was no way they were going to use three firsts (or two) plus the Pistons pick, and Olynyk alone is capable of offsetting some of that value surrendered.


Olynyk is a unrestricted free agent. And I don't see the difference between having 4 rookies (sending 2 to D league) in opposed to 3 rookies and Ochai, except none of those rookies have busted yet.

Maybe bust is a strong word. But another franchise has taken a crack at it and obviously didn't like what they saw.

So all rookie contract players who get traded are automatically not going to be a good player because the first team traded them? Damn thats insane logic.
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Re: Two slivers of hope, draft depth and expiring contracts 

Post#9 » by PushDaRock » Tue Feb 13, 2024 5:34 pm

ItsDanger wrote:If you had 4 picks in top 35, there would be options to trade at least one of them to move up or down or out of draft. There always is. The important part is to not clutter your roster with low upside players. Salary floor (a poorly thought out change) does complicated things.

Team could draft 2 19 yr olds and 2 4 year college guys to reduce perceived development demands. Nobody can tell me that a lot of 4 year guys can't fill the #8-10 spots immediately. They can.


not in this draft
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Re: Two slivers of hope, draft depth and expiring contracts 

Post#10 » by Steelo Green » Tue Feb 13, 2024 5:39 pm

dagger wrote:
Chandan wrote:Good thing we traded for Ochai with one of the picks!


There was no way they were going to use three firsts (or two) plus the Pistons pick, and Olynyk alone is capable of offsetting some of that value surrendered.

We wouldn't use one pick at the end of the draft, but instead took two contracts from Utah?
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Re: Two slivers of hope, draft depth and expiring contracts 

Post#11 » by dagger » Tue Feb 13, 2024 5:45 pm

Chandan wrote:
dagger wrote:
Chandan wrote:Good thing we traded for Ochai with one of the picks!


There was no way they were going to use three firsts (or two) plus the Pistons pick, and Olynyk alone is capable of offsetting some of that value surrendered.


Olynyk is a unrestricted free agent. And I don't see the difference between having 4 rookies (sending 2 to D league) in opposed to 3 rookies and Ochai, except none of those rookies have busted yet.

Maybe bust is a strong word. But another franchise has taken a crack at it and obviously didn't like what they saw.


I'd bet Olynyk signs again with the Raptors for a salary in the range of the room exception. As for the number of rookies, there are only 15 roster spots. First round picks have a fixed salary scale, so you can't put them in a two-way contract or Exhibit 10 deal. If the Raptors have four rookies, that means cutting guys you might prefer, say, like Porter Jr. Sure, so maybe you get rid of a couple o current players easily enough, but third and fourth get harder to justify, especially since the salary for the 27th pick in the draft will still be more than the second year salary for Porter Jr if he is moved to a regular contract.
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Re: Two slivers of hope, draft depth and expiring contracts 

Post#12 » by Scase » Tue Feb 13, 2024 5:45 pm

Yeezus_ wrote:
Chandan wrote:
dagger wrote:
There was no way they were going to use three firsts (or two) plus the Pistons pick, and Olynyk alone is capable of offsetting some of that value surrendered.


Olynyk is a unrestricted free agent. And I don't see the difference between having 4 rookies (sending 2 to D league) in opposed to 3 rookies and Ochai, except none of those rookies have busted yet.

Maybe bust is a strong word. But another franchise has taken a crack at it and obviously didn't like what they saw.

So all rookie contract players who get traded are automatically not going to be a good player because the first team traded them? Damn thats insane logic.

I'm not out on Ochai quite yet, but you can't say that a 4 year college player, being traded in the second year of his rookie contract, is a good sign. Dude looks rough.

Now the comment about Brown is nothing new, but I would like to see him packaged with the Pacers pick to possibly move up in the draft, but pretty unlikely.

As for the draft, I thought it was common knowledge that it was considered "bad" because it didn't have any top 5 talent, but rather a decent pool all the way through?

Either way, the future is kinda dim for this team.
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Re: Two slivers of hope, draft depth and expiring contracts 

Post#13 » by Harcore Fenton Mun » Tue Feb 13, 2024 5:47 pm

Ainge knows what an NBA player looks like. So when we move on a player, and his father's friends with the guy making the trade. You have to question it at some level.
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Re: Two slivers of hope, draft depth and expiring contracts 

Post#14 » by Chandan » Tue Feb 13, 2024 5:51 pm

Yeezus_ wrote:
Chandan wrote:
dagger wrote:
There was no way they were going to use three firsts (or two) plus the Pistons pick, and Olynyk alone is capable of offsetting some of that value surrendered.


Olynyk is a unrestricted free agent. And I don't see the difference between having 4 rookies (sending 2 to D league) in opposed to 3 rookies and Ochai, except none of those rookies have busted yet.

Maybe bust is a strong word. But another franchise has taken a crack at it and obviously didn't like what they saw.

So all rookie contract players who get traded are automatically not going to be a good player because the first team traded them? Damn thats insane logic.


Is it insane?
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Re: Two slivers of hope, draft depth and expiring contracts 

Post#15 » by refshateRaps » Tue Feb 13, 2024 5:59 pm

The only part I see as hopeful about this is that this franchise has undeniably been one of the best at growing role players past their ceilings.

But high level talent is the ultimate goal to compete and without that, or an easier opportunity to obtain we could be in a tough place for quite some time.
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Re: Two slivers of hope, draft depth and expiring contracts 

Post#16 » by DreamTeam09 » Tue Feb 13, 2024 6:01 pm

Harcore Fenton Mun wrote:Ainge knows what an NBA player looks like. So when we move on a player, and his father's friends with the guy making the trade. You have to question it at some level.


I'm sure you yourself can find many examples of Ainge picking the wrong player, or trading a player early or "not knowing what an NBA player looks like"
Does that instantly change your entire post?
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Re: Two slivers of hope, draft depth and expiring contracts 

Post#17 » by ItsDanger » Tue Feb 13, 2024 6:04 pm

Yeezus_ wrote:
Chandan wrote:
dagger wrote:
There was no way they were going to use three firsts (or two) plus the Pistons pick, and Olynyk alone is capable of offsetting some of that value surrendered.


Olynyk is a unrestricted free agent. And I don't see the difference between having 4 rookies (sending 2 to D league) in opposed to 3 rookies and Ochai, except none of those rookies have busted yet.

Maybe bust is a strong word. But another franchise has taken a crack at it and obviously didn't like what they saw.

So all rookie contract players who get traded are automatically not going to be a good player because the first team traded them? Damn thats insane logic.

If a player doesn't show he can be a reliable rotation player by their 3rd season, the probability of them being a bust is high. Maybe even by 2nd. A 4 year college player like Agbaji?, definitely by 2nd season. If teams are going to adhere to "analytics", the strategy must be absolute, not just sometimes.
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Re: Two slivers of hope, draft depth and expiring contracts 

Post#18 » by Loso04 » Tue Feb 13, 2024 6:10 pm

refshateRaps wrote:The only part I see as hopeful about this is that this franchise has undeniably been one of the best at growing role players past their ceilings.

But high level talent is the ultimate goal to compete and without that, or an easier opportunity to obtain we could be in a tough place for quite some time.


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Re: Two slivers of hope, draft depth and expiring contracts 

Post#19 » by Chandan » Tue Feb 13, 2024 6:11 pm

DreamTeam09 wrote:
Harcore Fenton Mun wrote:Ainge knows what an NBA player looks like. So when we move on a player, and his father's friends with the guy making the trade. You have to question it at some level.


I'm sure you yourself can find many examples of Ainge picking the wrong player, or trading a player early or "not knowing what an NBA player looks like"
Does that instantly change your entire post?


i am sure you can find a few examples of players in their rookie contract being packaged for a more established player, which turns out to be a regret because they became something more later down the line. However it's pretty rare for a 14th pick player being swapped for a mid 20s pick the year after they're drafted.
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Re: Two slivers of hope, draft depth and expiring contracts 

Post#20 » by wegotthabeet » Tue Feb 13, 2024 6:11 pm

Chandan wrote:
Yeezus_ wrote:
Chandan wrote:
Olynyk is a unrestricted free agent. And I don't see the difference between having 4 rookies (sending 2 to D league) in opposed to 3 rookies and Ochai, except none of those rookies have busted yet.

Maybe bust is a strong word. But another franchise has taken a crack at it and obviously didn't like what they saw.

So all rookie contract players who get traded are automatically not going to be a good player because the first team traded them? Damn thats insane logic.


Is it insane?


It’s over reactionary if anything. I’m of the belief that the rookie contract needs to be played out before jumping to conclusions about a player’s potential. Too many guys who found themselves in non optimal situations early in their careers to count. Some even went on to have hall of fame level careers.

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