PG: Refs and Thibs f*Ck us

[mpharris36]

you guys want to change the argument from mpharris saying height doesn't matter basically. nobody thinks burks is the better defender. but players do have physical limitations. if not let's play mcbride at center. we need the help there right now.

i mean that is going into the extreme. Clearly a 6'1 guy isn't going to play center.

But to say a 6'1 guy with a 6'9 wingspan can't play some off guard. Seems a little far fetched especially if you told me who has a better chance at defending a 2 guard...Duece or Burks...I would choose duece. So in that sense Burks additional size doesn't seem to matter much at all.

let's just be honest, you never wanted him back here. a bunch of you didn't. i assumed we would end up with him for more than a month now because he was the only guy who wasn't gonna cost a 1st. i told you this many times and you didn't want to believe it. so unless he looked amazing instantly you were gonna be ready to pounce. but the reality is they did trade for him. and because he just got here he's gonna get some time to see what he can do and mcbride, a younger player, is gonna lose minutes because of this. if burks doesn't get it together it will be him not playing eventually. but it's been 2 games. it's gonna be awhile before they pull the plug.

I'm not necessarily asking him to pull the plug after 2 games. I'm saying read the game and what we need. If Burks doesn't have it and McBride does why not just lean more McBride for that game?

I get it there will be a handful of games where Burks goes nuclear...we have seen it before...he has that ability. But with Brunson playing so many minutes is that really needed with Bojan too? I think we all said we needed another scorer but I don't think we thought Bojan was a legit option until later that day when the Det and Grimes rumors were heating up and we clearly weren't moving Grimes just for Burks.

So with no Bojan I would agree Burks would be more needed. Burks wasn't the main acquisition in that deal it was Bojan so Burks should be treated like a 2nd round pick acquisition. He shouldn't be locked into minutes regardless of his performance. Thibs talks about reading the game...but when it comes to his rotations he is pretty locked in before the game on how he is going to distribute minutes. The only time he goes rogue is when he overplays his starters in the 3rd to try to win the game and then doesn't sit them in the 4th because he gets caught up chasing a win and hurting us long term.

[K_ick_God]

I really don't know it, that OG is gonna play a ton. This is what I honestly think. OG will get eaten into by Bojan. I believe that fully, not trolling or whatever.

he would never rest og if he could get away with it. you couldn't be more wrong,

We'll find out.

[Jeff Van Gully]

I really don't know it, that OG is gonna play a ton. This is what I honestly think. OG will get eaten into by Bojan. I believe that fully, not trolling or whatever.

he would never rest og if he could get away with it. you couldn't be more wrong,

yeah. this stance perplexes me too.

[cgmw]

I really don't know it, that OG is gonna play a ton. This is what I honestly think. OG will get eaten into by Bojan. I believe that fully, not trolling or whatever.

he would never rest og if he could get away with it. you couldn't be more wrong,

QFT. And obviously so.

[Buttah304]

Burks role will not be this big when everyone is healthy. But this Grimes stuff is funny to me. Of course we miss his POA defense - people who liked him or didn’t can admit that. But AB missing shots is causing people to legitimately have panic attacks.

Y’all must have conveniently forgot that Grimes over his last 10 games as a Knick was 13/48 from 3 (27%). From Nov 15th to December 5th Grimes was also 7-30 from 3PT (23%). It’s okay to try to parse out an objective point (loss of defense) - but sometimes the mind tricks you into believing you’re making another factual point that’s not really based on reality. For crying out loud Grimes attempted 1 free throw after 17 games this season.

What are we doing here? Missing OG Randle iHart is the dilemma. Grasping for straws ain’t helping.

[3toheadmelo]

y'all really can't handle losing a few. jesus. this place is rough right now. they should never gave you a winning streak lol

we just hate alec burks

exactly. this is all anyone should say on the matter because it's the truth.

thats all im talking about idc about the losing

[sol537]

Playoff minutes if everyone is healthy:

IHart (25) / Precious (8) / Mitch (15)
Randle (38) / Precious (7) / Bogs (3)
OG (39) / Bogs (9)
DDV (28) / Hart (18) / Burks (2)
Brunson (39) / Burks (9)

McBride will be squeezed out and DDV’s, Hart’s, and the rest of the bench will get squeezed on minutes. Burks isn’t in the long term plans and Bogs is basically a 3pt specialist in the playoffs with weak defense.

Thibs is going to ride OG, Randle, Brunson, IHart a lot with sprinkling of Precious and DDV who have earned Thibs’ circle of trust ticket.

Seriously, guys I have sh*t to do today. Why is everybody pretending like they've never seen Tom Thibodeau coach?

10 man rotation in the playoffs? Thibs?

Playoff rotation is 2 centers + "Big 3" + 3 wings + whoever spells Brunson at PG. It is basically an 8.5 man rotation. Not 9 and certainly not 10.

Given what we've seen... Thibs' circle of trust is Brunson, OG, Randle, iHart, DDV, Precious, and Hart in that order. That's 7 guys.

I do think Thibs will sprinkle in Mitch (if healthy) and at least one of Bogs or Burks. Maybe one of the latter 2 get squeezed out as well (like McBride). It'll depend on match-ups and who is playing well and who is healthy. Many times, these rotation things take care of themselves if guys are banged up... like last season.

[stuporman]

I can see there is an uptick on the asylum applications to Burkistan...while simultaneously others declaring war against it.

[mpharris36]

i actually question the bogs for grimes part of the trade more than burks for 2 seconds. who cares about 2 2nds. if burks had another year on his deal i don't think they do the other part. i'm not sure it's a good idea to give up a young asset because you MIGHT need a contract to trade over the summer. if burks doesn't work out who cares. you gave up nothing.

because they didn't want to give up fournier without getting a future tradable contract back.

Bogs helps this year a little and then has a usable contract in a trade next year.

Otherwise they would have had to use Fournier for Burks which would have been a disaster in the offseason.

[god shammgod]

listen, i don't know if burks is gonna work out. and i hate when i have to be the voice of reason here. it's not my preferred role lol. i want to make quips and call melo fat. but when you trade for a guy they're gonna play him for awhile and see what he has until you're sure it's not working. and he just got here. it is what it is.

i think the idea is eventually to have options in the playoffs. we need defense off the bench and you got precious/mcbride. you need offense and you have bojan/burks. you can mix and match where you need it. yay team. thank you. i hate you all.

[mpharris36]

y'all really can't handle losing a few. jesus. this place is rough right now. they should never gave you a winning streak lol

its not just that...I have been on thibs during the win streak on the short sightedness of the rotations and minutes. I said a win in jan or feb is not worth potentially losing a player.

Since then ihart reaggravated an overuse injury and DD just got hurt and that could have long term effect on us.

Its not just the loss...that happens and the call at the end of the game and the refs throughout the game was brutal. I'm more worried about how guys are being used and the injuries piling up.

Everyone keeps saying WHEN we get fully healthy...I am legit wondering if we ever will be fully healthy...the way we are going at this point.

[K_ick_God]

I really don't know it, that OG is gonna play a ton. This is what I honestly think. OG will get eaten into by Bojan. I believe that fully, not trolling or whatever.

he would never rest og if he could get away with it. you couldn't be more wrong,

QFT. And obviously so.

I could be wrong of course but not it's def not obvious. That he may see AB + BB as essential scoring options, or at least very useful, is very possible. The defense thing is tricky. He loves it from his big bigs, and then things change rapidly as you go down the lineup. Guys like Thibs and JVG have always valued dribbling and scoring skill, guys who can "create."

We will see. But I can say the same about OG that you guys are saying about Burks and Bojan right now - that he had to play OG 40-48 because there was nobody else.

Like I said, we will see lol. But this obvious stuff strikes me as you guys trying to maybe comfort yourselves.

Listen, he asked for Burks to return. That says a lot. A very lot.

[Capn'O]

i actually question the bogs for grimes part of the trade more than burks for 2 seconds. who cares about 2 2nds. if burks had another year on his deal i don't think they do the other part. i'm not sure it's a good idea to give up a young asset because you MIGHT need a contract to trade over the summer. if burks doesn't work out who cares. you gave up nothing.

Salaries _and_ value were a little wonky to match on this one.

I was the most reluctant on giving up on Grimes of any of the prospects. Or, at least, in the other trade we traded value for slightly older value but all pieces could be long term pieces. The implications of this one are a little more temporary. More than the other two, I think it's likely we regret this one.

You know, unless we get Giannis or win a championship or something as a byproduct. Then yippee! There's definitely a scenario where these guys aren't really what we need, we can't move Bogs, and Grimes puts it together and that scenario kinda sucks.

[cgmw]

Playoff minutes if everyone is healthy:

IHart (25) / Precious (8) / Mitch (15)
Randle (38) / Precious (7) / Bogs (3)
OG (39) / Bogs (9)
DDV (28) / Hart (18) / Burks (2)
Brunson (39) / Burks (9)

McBride will be squeezed out and DDV’s, Hart’s, and the rest of the bench will get squeezed on minutes. Burks isn’t in the long term plans and Bogs is basically a 3pt specialist in the playoffs with weak defense.

Thibs is going to ride OG, Randle, Brunson, IHart a lot with sprinkling of Precious and DDV who have earned Thibs’ circle of trust ticket.

Seriously, guys I have sh*t to do today. Why is everybody pretending like they've never seen Tom Thibodeau coach?

10 man rotation in the playoffs? Thibs?

Playoff rotation is 2 centers + "Big 3" + 3 wings + whoever spells Brunson at PG. It is basically an 8.5 man rotation. Not 9 and certainly not 10.

Given what we've seen... Thibs' circle of trust is Brunson, OG, Randle, iHart, DDV, Precious, and Hart in that order. That's 7 guys.

I do think Thibs will sprinkle in Mitch (if healthy) and at least one of Bogs or Burks. Maybe one of the latter 2 get squeezed out as well (like McBride). It'll depend on match-ups and who is playing well and who is healthy. Many times, these rotation things take care of themselves if guys are banged up... like last season.

It’s either Precious or Mitch. Not both. There is literally a 0% chance of Thibs running 10 men in the playoffs.

If Bogey struggles, I could see him getting the Fournier treatment with AB getting all the backup minutes at both wing and PG.

This is a more realistic possibility than Maniac ever running 10 guys:

Hartenstein / Mitch (or Precious)
Randle / Hart
OG / Hart
DDV / AB
JB / AB

[god shammgod]

i actually question the bogs for grimes part of the trade more than burks for 2 seconds. who cares about 2 2nds. if burks had another year on his deal i don't think they do the other part. i'm not sure it's a good idea to give up a young asset because you MIGHT need a contract to trade over the summer. if burks doesn't work out who cares. you gave up nothing.

because they didn't want to give up fournier without getting a future tradable contract back.

Bogs helps this year a little and then has a usable contract in a trade next year.

Otherwise they would have had to use Fournier for Burks which would have been a disaster in the offseason.

we really don't know that. just because you want a star doesn't mean you can get one. one has to be available and you have to have the package the other team wants. it's not that easy as saying we're gonna get one this particular summer because it's good for us financially going forward. it's more likely we don't get one than do.

[Capn'O]

y'all really can't handle losing a few. jesus. this place is rough right now. they should never gave you a winning streak lol

its not just that...I have been on thibs during the win streak on the short sightedness of the rotations and minutes. I said a win in jan or feb is not worth potentially losing a player.

Since then ihart reaggravated an overuse injury and DD just got hurt and that could have long term effect on us.

Its not just the loss...that happens and the call at the end of the game and the refs throughout the game was brutal. I'm more worried about how guys are being used and the injuries piling up.

Everyone keeps saying WHEN we get fully healthy...I am legit wondering if we ever will be fully healthy...the way we are going at this point.

His compensation for injuries of "well, I'll just play this guy 40+ minutes and we won't miss a beat" is completely psycho.

[stuporman]

Burks and Bogs show us that very productive players on losing teams really are only marginally productive players off the bench on winning teams, it's just too bad that the Knicks had to sacrifice a young player to demonstrate this, once again, to their fan base.

Bogs still might be worth a 1st/young player in the off season in trade value if he gets included in some supposed star trade that might happen so the Knicks can wind up giving less in picks/players compared to just salary filler of Fournier who would cost something to include.

My biggest concern is that Thibs is going to convince Rose to bring back Burks and not just on a dirt cheap one year contract but at a full MLE multi-year contract...I don't want him on the roster after the season under any circumstances, he already reinforced this opinion in two games.

Hindsight is 20/20 though I certainly mentioned Stewart coming back from the Pistons to help bolster the front line in hypothetical trades I proposed. He would have been a better get with Bogs than Burks, but it may not have been something that Detroit would do without additional compensation.

[NoDopeOnSundays]

I don't see how Burks is a playoff option though, he's never been really good/efficient in them. His game hasn't translated to the playoffs, to me he's just a stop gap to help us get there by making sure Tom doesn't play Jalen 47.5mpg. I don't see how you can put him on the court against better defenders who will quiet a lot of what he does down and then go at him on the other end.

Bojan however has been an effective/efficient offensive weapon in the playoffs.

[K_ick_God]

This circle of trust thing is a very frail hook to hang your hat on folks. Grimes was the starting 2. Hartenstein wasn't named the starter after Mitch went out. You guys want to believe with all your heart, maybe, that OG is some mainstay for sure. That seems pretty suspect. More minutes than Bojan? Sure. But like 40 compared to 10? I disagree. I'll leave it there I guess unless I have something new to say lol.

[WargamesX]

Burks role will not be this big when everyone is healthy. But this Grimes stuff is funny to me. Of course we miss his POA defense - people who liked him or didn’t can admit that. But AB missing shots is causing people to legitimately have panic attacks.

Y’all must have conveniently forgot that Grimes over his last 10 games as a Knick was 13/48 from 3 (27%). From Nov 15th to December 5th Grimes was also 7-30 from 3PT (23%). It’s okay to try to parse out an objective point (loss of defense) - but sometimes the mind tricks you into believing you’re making another factual point that’s not really based on reality. For crying out loud Grimes attempted 1 free throw after 17 games this season.

What are we doing here? Missing OG Randle iHart is the dilemma. Grasping for straws ain’t helping.

To be fair if Grimes was missing shots at least we knew he was defending at a high level. If Burks is missing shots what value does he bring?