LeBron and Steph vs MJ and Bird

[durantbird]

Which duo would you prefer?

[DCasey91]

James and Curry. Unga Bunga 2 man game is too hard to stop.

Look at Green + Curry for example lmao then you add an even bulkier hulk like behemoth there is so much overlap leftover.

At their apex you are getting objectively the best defender and best shooter. And the spots to occupy is from the rim all the way out to the logo.

[OhayoKD]

Lebron and Curry are both outright better than Jordan and Bird respectively and overlap less in terms of skillset. This one's pretty obvious.

[Ol Roy]

"Building around" brings longevity into account, so I might have to pick LeBron and Steph on that basis. My reservation with them would be the extent to which LeBron dominates the ball...which determines to what degree Curry is relegated to being a spot-up shooter, albeit the best ever.

But I don't think I could bet against Jordan and Bird. I like that both are excellent on/off ball, and that both can pass and shoot at a high level. Their intensity and drive to win were on a different level. I'm not saying that as a cliche-I think they were really special at letting the game come to them and meshing within the team concept.

I think the best analogues would be if LeBron played with an upgraded Kyrie Irving and if Bird played with an upgraded Dennis Johnson.

[SNPA]

MJ and Bird are too intense. They’d will themselves to win.

[NbaAllDay]

"Building around" brings longevity into account, so I might have to pick LeBron and Steph on that basis. My reservation with them would be the extent to which LeBron dominates the ball...which determines to what degree Curry is relegated to being a spot-up shooter, albeit the best ever.

But I don't think I could bet against Jordan and Bird. I like that both are excellent on/off ball, and that both can pass and shoot at a high level. Their intensity and drive to win were on a different level. I'm not saying that as a cliche-I think they were really special at letting the game come to them and meshing within the team concept.

I think the best analogues would be if LeBron played with an upgraded Kyrie Irving and if Bird played with an upgraded Dennis Johnson.

The narrative of LeBron dominating the ball really needs to die. It was dead from 2011 onwards.

When Lebron had a capable 2nd player who could even run an offense he was more than willing to share. He would obviously do the same with Curry.

To the topic I'd go Lebron and Curry.
Less overlap, longer careers and peak/primes years overall.

If you assume a full career together Lebron + Curry have too much value add.

[CodeBreaker]

Curry and Bron is THE ultimate duo

[One_and_Done]

Curbstomp in favour of Lebron/Curry. Not close.

[OhayoKD]

"Building around" brings longevity into account, so I might have to pick LeBron and Steph on that basis. My reservation with them would be the extent to which LeBron dominates the ball...which determines to what degree Curry is relegated to being a spot-up shooter, albeit the best ever.

But I don't think I could bet against Jordan and Bird. I like that both are excellent on/off ball, and that both can pass and shoot at a high level. Their intensity and drive to win were on a different level. I'm not saying that as a cliche-I think they were really special at letting the game come to them and meshing within the team concept.

I think the best analogues would be if LeBron played with an upgraded Kyrie Irving and if Bird played with an upgraded Dennis Johnson.

The narrative of LeBron dominating the ball really needs to die. It was dead from 2011 onwards.

When Lebron had a capable 2nd player who could even run an offense he was more than willing to share. He would obviously do the same with Curry.

To the topic I'd go Lebron and Curry.
Less overlap, longer careers and peak/primes years overall.

If you assume a full career together Lebron + Curry have too much value add.

Lebron is an excellent off-ball player, yeah:

Spoiler:

..

I still can't believe you said arguing Jordan is a dumb take.

Even big Lebron fans like Heej disagreed with you.

Anyway this is comfortably Jordan:
- much better shooter
- better at navigating around screens to get open; smaller frame, quicker
- better offensive rebounder (surprisingly..)
- quicker decision maker on the catch vs. Lebron's slower, more deliberate play
- also a lob threat - 6'6'' 48 inch vertical lol
- more proof of concept; actually scored many more points off ball vs. a bunch of hypotheticals for Lebron; we've seen Jordan lead elite offenses while playing a lot off-ball whereas we've never seen it with Lebron

Tagging me in a different thread while I’m suspended is hilarious lol.

You don’t understand Xs and Os sadly

What makes Lebron better off ball is you can conceptually do a lot more with him if you lean into that, Jordan did end up doing more off ball throughout their careers in the roles and offenses they played in, but that’s not the same thing as who was better off ball.

First of all, generally speaking the type of empty side clear out cuts (I forgot the name ngl) to create get overhyped as some sort of massive brained play, as well as cuts to draw help defenders, alot of those are built in or dependent on how a team functions. We saw in 2021 and 2022 the Lakers were stupid stagnant in their post offense, in terms of cutting off of both stunts and baseline hep, whereas in 2023 and 2024 they’ve id when to cut and when to flash or set pin in flares (digging vs baseline help) and you see the post data for AD suddenly looks alot better. Of those guys brons certainly the best cutter off of stunts to the point they can’t really do it off of him or they have to stunt and rotate high and give up the cut to someone else instead

And 45 stampede cut + lift people overhype the crap out of thinking it’s the pinnacle of bball intelligence lol, it’s really just how the offense decides to align for those opportunities and we’ve seen it with brin

There REALLY isn’t a comparison in terms of what they could do though

First of all, lebron is a better shooter off ball, because he can shoot the three. Yes, era matters there and it’s unfair to Jordan but in an absolute sense yeah this isn’t a close comparison, brons abour a 37-42% three point shooter throughout 2010-2023, he takes a lot of pullup jumpers in pick and roll and hits them at a respectable rate (relative to average players) that brings down his averages (35% off the dribble would be about 40% off the shoot probably)

Lebrons catch and shoot three point data per Synergy:

2010: 34.7%
2011: 39.3%
2012 34.7%
2013 42.1%
2014 42.5%
2015: 42%
2016 36.0%
2017 40%
2018 41.4%
2019 35.0%
2020 40.6%
2021 37.6%
2022 37.1%
2023 31.8%
2024 45.9%

In any case spot up shooting is much more not being bad than being an outlier unless ur a crazy outlier which neither of them are, I agree it’s unfair to say jordan didn’t shoot well from three therefore he’s worse because of era but arguing the other way around because bron doesn’t shoot catch and shoot midrange jump shots off of screens which has been largely phased out is equally unfair and it’s also a less valuable skill period if ur talking about midrange shots

As for being a lob threat:

Jordan was around 6ft4-6ft5 barefoot and his vertical from what I recall was measured at 45 inches in some UNC paper off an unlimited run ip and 41 inches with the ball. If you’ve ever played basketball you know that it’s not 1 to 1 with vertical and height, ur never gonna see a guard be a roll man lob threat consistently

That’s not a lob threat in a way that functionally matters at all in the context I was describing, which was as a roller. Lebron barely qualifies being 6ft8.5 barefoot with a 40+ inch vert as well, and I’m taking about pre Lakers for sure (maybe even only up to Miami but not sure)

It’s mitigated a tad by the fact that lebron on the move with the ball is basically unstoppable, but that doesn’t mitigate it all that much in the context of why you want a lob threat in pick and roll vs aggressive coverages

There’s a much stronger argument that neither of them are in that context than Jordan being one as well. Jordan isn’t tall enough to be one, bron probably barely meets the mark but I get the argument he doesn’t in the context of what I said

The entirety of how he improved in 2023 outside of Lebron getting to be more physical rather than quick was them starting to get him the ball on the move more, in the playoffs he couldn’t do anything on ball at all

Offensive rebounding:

I mean neither are threats in the way that someone should consider an off ball player, (using raw rebounding % makes no sense when that number has changed lol). But regardless of a 0-1% change either way, lebron technically is a bigger threat just based on size since off ball offensive rebounding is probably more about in mismatch situations on certain switches (beyond that, offensive rebounding is just… offensive rebounding lol)


Quicker decision maker on the catch:
Being a quick decision maker off the catch isn’t equivalent to possessions resetting when they pass it out at times but this really isn’t comparable to the other advantages lol


Anyways, a 38 year old lebron currently averaging less touches a game than Brandon Ingram with less time of possession than Austin reaves, he’s averaging 26-8-7 on 67%TS and noticeably taking it easy till the fourth, and is a +17.4 on offense which ranks poorly overall because they can’t function without him (which is a bit from bad luck to be clear)

A 37 year old bron in the 18 game stretch where AD was hurt and we desperately were clinging to the playoffs, with no spacing, averages 80.6 touches a game (14th) , an average time of possession of 6.3 minutes (15th) , an average time of 4.66 seconds per touch (52nd). Those numbers aren’t quite as low as they were in Miami (2014 only) where people say off ball bron was somewhat of a thing but they’re close ish, especially considering who the team had around them and the raw volume of their offensice production. If I recall lebron was like a +17-18 on offense and we were top 5 in the games he played on that end

Wouldn’t call it off ball at first, the caveat is he was averaging 33.5/8/8 on great effeciency (62.5TS), so those rankings are insane considering the production

So what we have here is a VASTLY declined Lebron put his foot on the gas for 20 games and pretty consistently was a top 3 offensive player in a league with Jokic, Luka, Curry, in that stretch before injuries got him, and currently brons averaging a career high percentage inside the arc and his average career numbers despite sleepwalking untill the fourth quarter because he definately wants that clutch player of the year award unless 500k is on the line or it’s a marquee/revenge game matchup (anyone that doubts this has not seen the Lakers, lebron is currently leading the league in ppg in the fourth other than tyus Jones whose played 1 fourth quarter, averaging 32-8-8 per 36 on 70.8TS)


Now shooting off of screens is genuinely important, but not as much from the midrange nowadays


Jordan is good in the context of an elite normal player off ball whereas Lebron has much more unique value off ball which is the main thing here

Jordan doesnt open things up schematically for you to be more creative and diverse with what you can do for your offense or to make your actions more effective, he is an incredibly smart and skilled player off ball

Lebron, especially the younger versions of him that would be a lob threat that still shoot well off the catch, if you play into that absolutely does those things.

As cutters their values aren’t even remotely close, an issue with synergy tracking is some post ups are considered cuts and stampede cuts aren’t classified as cuts iirc, but not only is bron historically effecient off cuts for awhile now, but it’s one of those things where it’s a unique value vs other guys. With most players off cuts it’s cuz they’re so fast and smart with it but if you can wall up it’s fine, with bron it’s because he’s fast and huge so if you wall up he’ll go overpower you and he knows how to not foul in those situations, hes unstoppable on the move and it shows in those situations. This should be a non starter, lebrons shooting 80-90% on cuts throughout his career, his cutting has unique value because of the combination of size, finishing, speed, and playmaking. An argument for Jordan here is as much of a non starter as saying he’s better in transition

The synergy stat sheet that’s someone made for Jordan awhile back is a bit broke because turnovers weren’t accounted for, but iirc over 142 games jordan was at 68% inside the arc on cuts with a little more than one a game

That is both impressive and lower than any season bron has had since and including 2010, especially in recent years where brons relied on it and focused on it more he’s at hovering at around 80%, on a bit more volume as well per game (My mistake, one year they had a similar percentage where bron was at 67%, but bron had more volume)



As an off rolling big, its REALLY hard to name a guy that has basically all the skills you need vs every coverage, spot up shooting, short roll passing, punishing mismatches, lob threat. Throw in offensive rebounding there too but that’s not usually one I think of to beat coverages as much as a bonus but its valid. There are ways to mitigate lacking in some of those skills but that gets tied into the ball handler and coaching.

Lebron checks at least 3/4 boxes super comfortably, and as a lob threat he’s 6ft8.5 barefoot with a 40-45 inch vert, At least when he was younger, he’s a tad short for that but he’s an inch or two shorter than AD and dwight so he could still be one.

Jordan does not qualify as a lob threat in that situation and it doesn’t even make sense to care about him in that situation


A lot of Arguments for Jordan on here in the context of their off ball ability are focused on what occurred situationally in the situations they were in ans the systems they played in (which is valid), but the arguments that hes actually better just always end up being super vague and not actual descriptive which just sounds like waffling things out of thin air lol, throwing out super vague descriptions of what happens on the court m to make a point is barely step better than throwing out a narrative out there imo. In a concrete sense lebrons just so more of a potent tool off ball you can do more things with, feel that’s a given if you have schematic knowledge of the freedom a guy like bron gives you over a guy like Jordan

I see a better argument for Jordan on ball than off ball in terms of them as players, people don’t get how ridiculous younger versions of lebron would be as a rolling small ball big that’s still a huge lob threat, but obviously it goes without saying he’s more impactful on ball than off ball. There are less than 5 players in nba history that check all the boxes as an rolling big probably and he would be one of them. You don’t need to check all
The boxes but it gives you so much more versatility and reseliency against coverages, we saw the warriors pick and roll attack somewhat die this past postseason against a high drop since Dray isn’t a lob threat and switching hurt it at times too even at their best, Westbrook and AD had issues because neither of them could should and Westbrook wasn’t as fast as he used to be so things like north south ball screens and flipping the screen weren’t quite as dominant as they had been

Heej is my boy but he was talking about shooting as a main point and more about the role bron did play, but also the fact that lebron was actually a good catch and shoot three point shooter is just a thing that’s weird and most people don’t expect, and he clarified it was a role thing and bron could be better even now if he leans into it more

And a much better on-ball player and defender who also "fits into team concepts" better than Jordan does:

Spoiler:

According to one official, Hughes was explicitly told by Jordan to get him the ball if he wanted to play. When Hughes began passing it to Stackhouse as much as to Jordan, he was soon benched. Point guard Tyronn Lue, the official said, obliged and began finding Jordan every time he played. ''He was scared to death of what would happen to him in his career if he didn't,'' the player said of Lue. ''He was always looking at the bench at Michael.''

Late last fall, Richard Hamilton and Jordan got into an ugly shouting match. The two officials said it began when Hamilton told Jordan he was tired of being a ''Jordannaire,'' the term used for Jordan's role players in Chicago. ''Rip was a young, brash guy who threatened the idea of Michael being the guy here,'' the official said. ''He was promptly gotten rid of for Stackhouse.'' A person close to Jordan denied Hamilton was traded because of a personality conflict. He insisted contractual issues led to the Stackhouse deal.

In the season's final weeks, players openly complained about the double standards for Jordan. Promptly dressed and ready to speak with reporters after games, they were forced to wait in the locker room for 15 or 20 minutes while Jordan showered and dressed in a private room.

This was not new of course, as Jordan had expressed winning the scoring title as a neccesity to Collins and Phil. Unless "fit into team concepts is merely a synonym for "can't do as much", this is a silly claim.

[Ol Roy]

"Building around" brings longevity into account, so I might have to pick LeBron and Steph on that basis. My reservation with them would be the extent to which LeBron dominates the ball...which determines to what degree Curry is relegated to being a spot-up shooter, albeit the best ever.

But I don't think I could bet against Jordan and Bird. I like that both are excellent on/off ball, and that both can pass and shoot at a high level. Their intensity and drive to win were on a different level. I'm not saying that as a cliche-I think they were really special at letting the game come to them and meshing within the team concept.

I think the best analogues would be if LeBron played with an upgraded Kyrie Irving and if Bird played with an upgraded Dennis Johnson.

The narrative of LeBron dominating the ball really needs to die. It was dead from 2011 onwards.

When Lebron had a capable 2nd player who could even run an offense he was more than willing to share. He would obviously do the same with Curry.

To the topic I'd go Lebron and Curry.
Less overlap, longer careers and peak/primes years overall.

If you assume a full career together Lebron + Curry have too much value add.

I agree with what LeBron is capable of, my question is to what extent that plays out in reality. And I'm looking beyond "taking turns," as it were. I believe LeBron and Curry would be synergistic, but I do think the degree is not cut and dry.

[parsnips33]

"Building around" brings longevity into account, so I might have to pick LeBron and Steph on that basis. My reservation with them would be the extent to which LeBron dominates the ball...which determines to what degree Curry is relegated to being a spot-up shooter, albeit the best ever.

But I don't think I could bet against Jordan and Bird. I like that both are excellent on/off ball, and that both can pass and shoot at a high level. Their intensity and drive to win were on a different level. I'm not saying that as a cliche-I think they were really special at letting the game come to them and meshing within the team concept.

I think the best analogues would be if LeBron played with an upgraded Kyrie Irving and if Bird played with an upgraded Dennis Johnson.

The narrative of LeBron dominating the ball really needs to die. It was dead from 2011 onwards.

When Lebron had a capable 2nd player who could even run an offense he was more than willing to share. He would obviously do the same with Curry.

To the topic I'd go Lebron and Curry.
Less overlap, longer careers and peak/primes years overall.

If you assume a full career together Lebron + Curry have too much value add.

The idea that Steph could be relegated to merely a spot-up shooter, even if we assume a drastic decrease in time spent on-ball, is just as wrong headed. This is the most prolific off-ball mover in league history we're talking about, there's no way he'd just be camping out like Mike Miller

[SportsGuru08]

Jordan/Bird for the simple fact that Curry wouldn't be able to guard either one of them.

Bird/LeBron is a wash; Bron is too big for Bird and Bird torched defenders much better than LeBron. But Jordan could definitely put the clamps on Curry.

[fanofthegreats]

Jordan/Bird for the simple fact that Curry wouldn't be able to guard either one of them.

Bird/LeBron is a wash; Bron is too big for Bird and Bird torched defenders much better than LeBron. But Jordan could definitely put the clamps on Curry.

Who is Bird guarding ? Lol

[lessthanjake]

I think Lebron + Steph > MJ + Bird, because even though MJ is better than LeBron I think the gap between Steph and Bird is wider. But it’s a good hypothetical, and I think I’m higher than most on Steph, so I can definitely see others disagreeing.

[Vae Victus]

In overall talent/impact MJ/Bird is higher than Lebron/Steph, but in terms of fit and team building Lebron/Steph wins out by far.

I find a RealGM starting with Lebron + Steph will create a superteam much easier and simpler than with a MJ + Bird combo. Now a good GM can get the right pieces around MJ + Bird and dominate, but i just find Lebron + Steph combo to be more idiot proof.

[eminence]

Curry and Bron is THE ultimate duo

Wouldn’t go quite this far (I’d like a true defensive anchor), but I’d go LBJ/Curry pretty clearly as well.

[tsherkin]

"Building around" brings longevity into account, so I might have to pick LeBron and Steph on that basis. My reservation with them would be the extent to which LeBron dominates the ball...which determines to what degree Curry is relegated to being a spot-up shooter, albeit the best ever.

Curry is off-ball all the time. It's... it's literally the main element of how things changed from Mark Jackson to Kerr. It's like the key feature of his game after his insane shooting ability.

I think the best analogues would be if LeBron played with an upgraded Kyrie Irving and if Bird played with an upgraded Dennis Johnson.

That's a terribly analogy. Kyrie and Steph have basically nothing in common. And "upgraded Dennis Johnson" doesn't even come close to addressing Jordan. Neither of those are effective at conveying anything useful to this comparison...

[Dutchball97]

In terms of how good they are it's a very close comparison imo. MJ and Bird would be amazing to see as teammates but I'd give it to LeBron and Curry here due to a better fit.

[Cavsfansince84]

If its best 7 years for each guy its more of a debate even though you're pretty much guaranteed to win a title any year either duo is healthy. Even then I think LeBron and Steph's fit/personalities work together better. With it going past 7-8 years it skewers towards LeBron and Steph due to Bird only having 4-5 years as a true offensive giant then having his prime end, MJ needing almost 2 years off and LeBron having 17-18 years in a row at a really high level.

[homecourtloss]

Lebron and Curry are both outright better than Jordan and Bird respectively and overlap less in terms of skillset. This one's pretty obvious.