Our fanbase is fickle and treacherous and it makes me sick.

[TGM]

San Antonio's assets will come to fruition in 2-5 years.

They trade Dejonte for maximum value, they traded Jak for maximum value, they traded Thad for maximum value.

All these people are claiming patience with this group but not for SA? They have pick swaps until 2027 and options regarding first rounders until then as well.

The Demar trade who was a sign and trade was protected better by Chicago than Poeltl.

Let’s say SA didn’t get Wemby would you guys still all be praising this SA model? They could have very well got Scoot instead. If that’s the case Scoot, Vassel, Johnson, Sochan are you seriously creaming in your pants about that team. Don’t forget that team has been brutal for like 5 years already and even with this core it looks pretty mediocre to me and most likely a treadmill team. So fast forward to 2029 and we are 10 years in with that line up and even maybe a few more late to mid lottery picks. Not really sure it’s anything to be too excited about if Wemby wasn’t in the picture.

[TGM]

even worse lol

eh, debatable. I dont care for it as the team is in need of hitting the lottery so to speak, and their floor doesnt matter as the current team's ceiling is bad. But in a vacuum, the floor of Ochai is much higher than the floor of the 28th pick. Obviously the ceiling of Ochai is much lower than the ceiling of all potential players that Masai could technically pick at 28 (but will most likely be DeAndre Daniels or Flynn). And we cant use hindsight next year or in 2 years and say x player who turned out to be the next Jocic would have been taken by Masai at 28th as thats not how the world works. GMs would trade the low cost to obtain the 28th pick during the draft if the player they think could be a star was available at 28. This goes for any player at any pick outside the top 10 in any given year.

Also, I cant believe OP has 47 upvotes If you read the whole post, its a bit of a silly simplified take.

I think it's splitting hairs cause I doubt either Ochai or the prospective pick ever really amount to much. But, I would prefer drafting say a 19/20 year old that shows promise in the 3+D areas that we want Ochai to grow in, and develop them vs a guy who is 2 years into his rookie contract and a 4 year college player.

More time on a team friendly deal + younger player with more time to develop + picking from a multitude of players > Less time on a team friendly deal + older player + restricted to what Ainge would give us.

I tend to disagree. Ochai was a heck of a college player and someone our team scouted and probably felt could develop into a better player.

Look at Precious. I was a bit of a hater of his inconsistency but the dude has been fricking balling for the Knicks lately.

[sbsat]

San Antonio's assets will come to fruition in 2-5 years.

They trade Dejonte for maximum value, they traded Jak for maximum value, they traded Thad for maximum value.

All these people are claiming patience with this group but not for SA? They have pick swaps until 2027 and options regarding first rounders until then as well.

The Demar trade who was a sign and trade was protected better by Chicago than Poeltl.

Let’s say SA didn’t get Wemby would you guys still all be praising this SA model? They could have very well got Scoot instead. If that’s the case Scoot, Vassel, Johnson, Sochan are you seriously creaming in your pants about that team. Don’t forget that team has been brutal for like 5 years already and even with this core it looks pretty mediocre to me and most likely a treadmill team. So fast forward to 2029 and we are 10 years in with that line up and even maybe a few more late to mid lottery picks. Not really sure it’s anything to be too excited about if Wemby wasn’t in the picture.

Where are talking about a 7 to 10 year rebuild and thats brutal. Vessell and wemby will be their core moving forward things are looking bright but a decade long rebuild succcckkkkks

[Scase]

eh, debatable. I dont care for it as the team is in need of hitting the lottery so to speak, and their floor doesnt matter as the current team's ceiling is bad. But in a vacuum, the floor of Ochai is much higher than the floor of the 28th pick. Obviously the ceiling of Ochai is much lower than the ceiling of all potential players that Masai could technically pick at 28 (but will most likely be DeAndre Daniels or Flynn). And we cant use hindsight next year or in 2 years and say x player who turned out to be the next Jocic would have been taken by Masai at 28th as thats not how the world works. GMs would trade the low cost to obtain the 28th pick during the draft if the player they think could be a star was available at 28. This goes for any player at any pick outside the top 10 in any given year.

Also, I cant believe OP has 47 upvotes If you read the whole post, its a bit of a silly simplified take.

I think it's splitting hairs cause I doubt either Ochai or the prospective pick ever really amount to much. But, I would prefer drafting say a 19/20 year old that shows promise in the 3+D areas that we want Ochai to grow in, and develop them vs a guy who is 2 years into his rookie contract and a 4 year college player.

More time on a team friendly deal + younger player with more time to develop + picking from a multitude of players > Less time on a team friendly deal + older player + restricted to what Ainge would give us.

I recommend both you and NotMyKawhi listen to the last episode of the Dunker’s Spot when they talked Raptors. Getting Ochai and Kelly in is as much about the development of Scottie as it is about the value of those 2 relative to the 28th pick in a vaccum - putting aside any cap advantages.

Scase, I think you’d specifically enjoy Nekias’ takes on Scottie as he is a massive fan of him.

I'll take a look, but I've been an advocate for getting a stretch 5 for quite some time, hell, I've been advocating for KO to start over Jak so BBQ can get used to running with a centre that can shoot. I'm not upset at all with the trade as some people. As for Ochai, I'm speaking strictly in a vacuum that the player picked would be better than him long term, or I should say, a better chance to be a good player.

But this is far from a trade I'm going to be down on, it was minimal from an asset perspective, and presuming KO re-signs at a reasonable amount, I'm on board. It's unfortunate Ochai so far has looked actually awful.

[Duffman100]

eh, debatable. I dont care for it as the team is in need of hitting the lottery so to speak, and their floor doesnt matter as the current team's ceiling is bad. But in a vacuum, the floor of Ochai is much higher than the floor of the 28th pick. Obviously the ceiling of Ochai is much lower than the ceiling of all potential players that Masai could technically pick at 28 (but will most likely be DeAndre Daniels or Flynn). And we cant use hindsight next year or in 2 years and say x player who turned out to be the next Jocic would have been taken by Masai at 28th as thats not how the world works. GMs would trade the low cost to obtain the 28th pick during the draft if the player they think could be a star was available at 28. This goes for any player at any pick outside the top 10 in any given year.

Also, I cant believe OP has 47 upvotes If you read the whole post, its a bit of a silly simplified take.

I think it's splitting hairs cause I doubt either Ochai or the prospective pick ever really amount to much. But, I would prefer drafting say a 19/20 year old that shows promise in the 3+D areas that we want Ochai to grow in, and develop them vs a guy who is 2 years into his rookie contract and a 4 year college player.

More time on a team friendly deal + younger player with more time to develop + picking from a multitude of players > Less time on a team friendly deal + older player + restricted to what Ainge would give us.

I tend to disagree. Ochai was a heck of a college player and someone our team scouted and probably felt could develop into a better player.

Look at Precious. I was a bit of a hater of his inconsistency but the dude has been fricking balling for the Knicks lately.

****, all they had to do with Precious was narrow the scope of his role. Something both Nurse and Darko seemed incapable of doing.

[hyper316]

eh, debatable. I dont care for it as the team is in need of hitting the lottery so to speak, and their floor doesnt matter as the current team's ceiling is bad. But in a vacuum, the floor of Ochai is much higher than the floor of the 28th pick. Obviously the ceiling of Ochai is much lower than the ceiling of all potential players that Masai could technically pick at 28 (but will most likely be DeAndre Daniels or Flynn). And we cant use hindsight next year or in 2 years and say x player who turned out to be the next Jocic would have been taken by Masai at 28th as thats not how the world works. GMs would trade the low cost to obtain the 28th pick during the draft if the player they think could be a star was available at 28. This goes for any player at any pick outside the top 10 in any given year.

Also, I cant believe OP has 47 upvotes If you read the whole post, its a bit of a silly simplified take.

I think it's splitting hairs cause I doubt either Ochai or the prospective pick ever really amount to much. But, I would prefer drafting say a 19/20 year old that shows promise in the 3+D areas that we want Ochai to grow in, and develop them vs a guy who is 2 years into his rookie contract and a 4 year college player.

More time on a team friendly deal + younger player with more time to develop + picking from a multitude of players > Less time on a team friendly deal + older player + restricted to what Ainge would give us.

I tend to disagree. Ochai was a heck of a college player and someone our team scouted and probably felt could develop into a better player.

Look at Precious. I was a bit of a hater of his inconsistency but the dude has been fricking balling for the Knicks lately.

Achiuwa didnt have the chance to play his natural position PF behind Siakam and Barnes. Being paired up with Boucher in a lineup made things worse

[Scase]

eh, debatable. I dont care for it as the team is in need of hitting the lottery so to speak, and their floor doesnt matter as the current team's ceiling is bad. But in a vacuum, the floor of Ochai is much higher than the floor of the 28th pick. Obviously the ceiling of Ochai is much lower than the ceiling of all potential players that Masai could technically pick at 28 (but will most likely be DeAndre Daniels or Flynn). And we cant use hindsight next year or in 2 years and say x player who turned out to be the next Jocic would have been taken by Masai at 28th as thats not how the world works. GMs would trade the low cost to obtain the 28th pick during the draft if the player they think could be a star was available at 28. This goes for any player at any pick outside the top 10 in any given year.

Also, I cant believe OP has 47 upvotes If you read the whole post, its a bit of a silly simplified take.

I think it's splitting hairs cause I doubt either Ochai or the prospective pick ever really amount to much. But, I would prefer drafting say a 19/20 year old that shows promise in the 3+D areas that we want Ochai to grow in, and develop them vs a guy who is 2 years into his rookie contract and a 4 year college player.

More time on a team friendly deal + younger player with more time to develop + picking from a multitude of players > Less time on a team friendly deal + older player + restricted to what Ainge would give us.

I tend to disagree. Ochai was a heck of a college player and someone our team scouted and probably felt could develop into a better player.

Look at Precious. I was a bit of a hater of his inconsistency but the dude has been fricking balling for the Knicks lately.

I've no issue with Ochai specifically, but for someone who was a good college player, and for 4 years, he sure hasn't shown any of that in the NBA so far. And those 4 year college players are supposed to be the ones who can generally contribute right away.

As for precious, his stats are relatively the same as they were here, and we've all seen 15 game precious.

[Steelo Green]

San Antonio's assets will come to fruition in 2-5 years.

They trade Dejonte for maximum value, they traded Jak for maximum value, they traded Thad for maximum value.

All these people are claiming patience with this group but not for SA? They have pick swaps until 2027 and options regarding first rounders until then as well.

The Demar trade who was a sign and trade was protected better by Chicago than Poeltl.

Let’s say SA didn’t get Wemby would you guys still all be praising this SA model? They could have very well got Scoot instead. If that’s the case Scoot, Vassel, Johnson, Sochan are you seriously creaming in your pants about that team. Don’t forget that team has been brutal for like 5 years already and even with this core it looks pretty mediocre to me and most likely a treadmill team. So fast forward to 2029 and we are 10 years in with that line up and even maybe a few more late to mid lottery picks. Not really sure it’s anything to be too excited about if Wemby wasn’t in the picture.

Let's say we don't luck into Barnes? Then we don't have him or any assets and we traded our first this year to SA.

Not a great thought experiment.

And then, the assets they have in the next 2-3 years are just way better for their rebuild. Also - they tanked the right way and got Wemby, the luck really was us getting the fourth pick and Barnes.

Look at OKC and their tanking and what is developing there, or the Pelicans rebuild, or the Wolves. Top 5 picks galore.

[YogurtProducer]

I tend to disagree. Ochai was a heck of a college player and someone our team scouted and probably felt could develop into a better player.

Look at Precious. I was a bit of a hater of his inconsistency but the dude has been fricking balling for the Knicks lately.

Important to remember Precious' stats look crazy cause he is playing like 42mpg

[Lord_Zedd]

I think it's splitting hairs cause I doubt either Ochai or the prospective pick ever really amount to much. But, I would prefer drafting say a 19/20 year old that shows promise in the 3+D areas that we want Ochai to grow in, and develop them vs a guy who is 2 years into his rookie contract and a 4 year college player.

More time on a team friendly deal + younger player with more time to develop + picking from a multitude of players > Less time on a team friendly deal + older player + restricted to what Ainge would give us.

I tend to disagree. Ochai was a heck of a college player and someone our team scouted and probably felt could develop into a better player.

Look at Precious. I was a bit of a hater of his inconsistency but the dude has been fricking balling for the Knicks lately.

****, all they had to do with Precious was narrow the scope of his role. Something both Nurse and Darko seemed incapable of doing.

I mean, part of it that too was surrounding Precious with a bunch of high BBIQ players. There isn't anyone on that Knicks roster that's preceived as a low-IQ player. We were surrounding him with Boucher and Flynn where just one of the two pairing was a disaster waiting to happen.

[YogurtProducer]

San Antonio's assets will come to fruition in 2-5 years.

They trade Dejonte for maximum value, they traded Jak for maximum value, they traded Thad for maximum value.

All these people are claiming patience with this group but not for SA? They have pick swaps until 2027 and options regarding first rounders until then as well.

The Demar trade who was a sign and trade was protected better by Chicago than Poeltl.

Let’s say SA didn’t get Wemby would you guys still all be praising this SA model? They could have very well got Scoot instead. If that’s the case Scoot, Vassel, Johnson, Sochan are you seriously creaming in your pants about that team. Don’t forget that team has been brutal for like 5 years already and even with this core it looks pretty mediocre to me and most likely a treadmill team. So fast forward to 2029 and we are 10 years in with that line up and even maybe a few more late to mid lottery picks. Not really sure it’s anything to be too excited about if Wemby wasn’t in the picture.

Let's say we don't luck into Barnes? Then we don't have him or any assets and we traded our first this year to SA.

Not a great thought experiment.

And then, the assets they have in the next 2-3 years are just way better for their rebuild. Also - they tanked the right way and got Wemby, the luck really was us getting the fourth pick and Barnes.

Look at OKC and their tanking and what is developing there, or the Pelicans rebuild, or the Wolves. Top 5 picks galore.

If we do not have Barnes we probably don't ever end up in a position to even think about trading our first.

So really it is a useless thought experiment.

Reality is if we don't draft Barnes and took like... Suggs or something we do not get anywhere near 48 wins in 2021 and we probably trade Siakam and OG in 2021 or 2022 rather than 2024.

[Duffman100]

San Antonio's assets will come to fruition in 2-5 years.

They trade Dejonte for maximum value, they traded Jak for maximum value, they traded Thad for maximum value.

All these people are claiming patience with this group but not for SA? They have pick swaps until 2027 and options regarding first rounders until then as well.

The Demar trade who was a sign and trade was protected better by Chicago than Poeltl.

Let’s say SA didn’t get Wemby would you guys still all be praising this SA model? They could have very well got Scoot instead. If that’s the case Scoot, Vassel, Johnson, Sochan are you seriously creaming in your pants about that team. Don’t forget that team has been brutal for like 5 years already and even with this core it looks pretty mediocre to me and most likely a treadmill team. So fast forward to 2029 and we are 10 years in with that line up and even maybe a few more late to mid lottery picks. Not really sure it’s anything to be too excited about if Wemby wasn’t in the picture.

Let's say we don't luck into Barnes? Then we don't have him or any assets and we traded our first this year to SA.

Not a great thought experiment.

And then, the assets they have in the next 2-3 years are just way better for their rebuild. Also - they tanked the right way and got Wemby, the luck really was us getting the fourth pick and Barnes.

Look at OKC and their tanking and what is developing there, or the Pelicans rebuild, or the Wolves. Top 5 picks galore.

LOL we got lucky for Barnes, but they tanked the 'right way' and didn't get lucky for Wemby.

[Scase]

I tend to disagree. Ochai was a heck of a college player and someone our team scouted and probably felt could develop into a better player.

Look at Precious. I was a bit of a hater of his inconsistency but the dude has been fricking balling for the Knicks lately.

****, all they had to do with Precious was narrow the scope of his role. Something both Nurse and Darko seemed incapable of doing.

I mean, part of it that too was surrounding Precious with a bunch of high BBIQ players. There isn't anyone on that Knicks roster that's preceived as a low-IQ player. We were surrounding him with Boucher and Flynn where just one of the two pairing was a disaster waiting to happen.

High IQ players don't stop him from taking stupid shots. The fact that he knows that if he tries that **** with thibs, his ass is nailed to the bench. Duff is right, this is on Darko/Nurse not being able to reign him in.

[pharring]

I think it's splitting hairs cause I doubt either Ochai or the prospective pick ever really amount to much. But, I would prefer drafting say a 19/20 year old that shows promise in the 3+D areas that we want Ochai to grow in, and develop them vs a guy who is 2 years into his rookie contract and a 4 year college player.

More time on a team friendly deal + younger player with more time to develop + picking from a multitude of players > Less time on a team friendly deal + older player + restricted to what Ainge would give us.

I tend to disagree. Ochai was a heck of a college player and someone our team scouted and probably felt could develop into a better player.

Look at Precious. I was a bit of a hater of his inconsistency but the dude has been fricking balling for the Knicks lately.

****, all they had to do with Precious was narrow the scope of his role. Something both Nurse and Darko seemed incapable of doing.

I have a side theory on this. I think some players are more willing to stick to a "scope of role" on prestige teams (LAL, MIA, NYK, GS, etc.) than they are when they arrive at a smaller market spot (and Toronto is treated as if it were a smaller market).

I go all the way back to Mike James on this. He arrives on the Raptors and suddenly deems himself to be a #1 option. He wouldn't do that in a larger US market but if he has to play a season in the North, he's going to play it his way. Skip and Jalen were similar.

I wonder whether this was true of Precious. He was a role player in MIA. He comes to Toronto and decides he wants to expand his game and show everyone he is more (which he kinda is not). He goes to NY and he's back to filling a role.

I'd be willing to modify this theory to say "winning" teams as opposed to "prestige" teams.

I'd also be willing to modify if there is a correlation between strong existing vets and incoming players accepting their roles.

But I think there are situations where a player decides that when they are on a certain team, they are not going to accept being just a role player. And after Kyle et al left, there were not enough strong voices (or enough prestige) for Precious to conclude that he had to accept just a role.

[mdenny]

It's pretty bizarre to see the Pensare/Messiah crowd whine about the biased media coverage regarding Scotty and the ridiculous hypocrisy.

Pensare has like 20 or 30 videos that are so bizarrely toxic about Fred Vanvleet. He actually gained a substantial following the past couple years based on the hate click-bait and it's absolutely relevant regarding the nature of the raptors fanbase on social media. Of course...now his little empire is falling apart and ppl are turning against him. That was inevitable.

It justifies a much longer discussion that I'm not prepared to start here. But it's not hard to find examples wherein the toxicity and hate coming from that crowd are from a completely different universe compared to Will Lou and Blake saying 'Maybe Scotty has to mature a bit".

When the rockets signed Fred....Pensare was FURIOUS because he envisioned Fred having to go play in China or something. So when Fred got the 80 million....he published this video. I even had to skip over a bunch of crazy stuff to find an inpoint because the rant is over an hour long. Listen to his voice. Listen to how crazy he sounds. Listen to how laughably wrong he was. Listen to him referring to 'putting a gun to fred's head'. This guy was (and is) a big influence on some posters who participate on this board.

THERE IS NO EQUIVALENT to what Pensare and his crowd call 'scotty haters'. That's also part of the whole gas-lighting social media strategy employed. The same ppl who consumed and supported the content linked here are now saying 'the scotty haters are toxic'.

This is a problem in the fanbase and we need to talk about it. I know that raptors media ppl talk about it behind closed doors.

https://youtu.be/JTq0SFrbZDw?t=2148

[Duffman100]

I think this thread has really hit it's max value. Maybe it already did before the pages of me debating with Scase.