Where does Kobe's 10yr prime (01-10) rate in historical rankings?

[rebirthoftheM]

Kobe's prime was arguably between 2001-2010, with his absolute prime being 01-08 and his absolute peak being between 05-08 and lone seasons of 01 and 03.

Stats during 10-yr prime.

2001-2010 RS (775 Games)

28.5 PPG/5.8 RBG/5.2 APG/1.7 SPG on 45.6% Shooting, 55.9% TS (League Average 53.1%, 3.1 TO.

2001-2010 PS (148 Games)

28.8 PPG/5.7 RBG/5.4 APG/1.5 SPG on 45.2% Shooting, 54.8% TS (League Average 52.7%), 3.2 TO.

Average League DRTG during this 10-yr run was 105.62 (ORTG of course 105.6 also).

The average DRTG of the teams Kobe faced in the playoffs during this time was approximately 102.

RS Kobe with Shaq between 01-04 : 27/6/5, 54.9% TS
RS Kobe without Shaq between 05-10: 30/6/5, 56.4% TS

PS Kobe with Shaq between 01-04: 28/6/5, 52.4 % TS
PS Kobe without Shaq between 05-10: 30/6/5, 57.1% TS

Accolades

4X Rings
3X Allstar MVP
2X Finals MVP
1X MVP (8X Top 5, 5X Top 3)
1X Olympic Gold Medal
10X time All-NBA (8x 1st, 1X 2nd, 1X 3rd)
9X Time All-Defense (7X 1st, 2X 2nd)

But there is more.

Rarely do I see this 10-year run of Kobe's properly contextualised, especially by analytic obsessed NBA analysts who severely underrate him and even his supporters who tend to overrate him. I explain below:

1) Quality of Defences Faced

Half of this prime was played in arguably the toughest defensive era of all time, where both zone defense and handchecking was allowed, with Kobe facing 3 of the greatest defenses of all time during this 10 year window and numerous sub 100 DRTG teams. Kobe consistently faced tougher defenses than any modern wing player (including MJ) did, as evidenced by the rules and average DRTG. His offensive output which is already remarkable when contextualised against this defensive backdrop, should be magnified more, especially in comparison to a year such as this with uber spacing and a league average DRTG of 116.

Kobe would have feasted in the small-ball, space heavy, 3 point era.

Indeed he showed signs of it in 2013 (well past his prime) when D'Antoni made him the ball dominant runner on a high octane offense (relative to the year) during the last 20 or so games and he averaged 29/6/7 on 57% TS.

Kobe's resilience facing tough defenses should be of major consideration when ranking him.

2) Playoff Resilience

Kobe showed essentially no drop off in performance and efficiency during the playoffs, a remarkable feat given the all time tough defenses he faced who had ample time to gameplan against. I think it was Chauncey Billups who said Kobe had a counter for everything the defense had due to his GOAT skillset. While this might not impress some, this consistency in RS/PS performance is not too common with several all timers seeing appreciable drop-offs in the playoffs (e.g. KG, Wilt and Malone).

Kobe's resilience in the playoffs is impressive, however rarely mentioned in his favour.

3) Time with Shaq a positive, not a negative

While playing with Shaq helped Kobe in the rings department (with this being to his detriment by his many detractors), far from helping him individually, playing with Shaq actually supressed his output. Kobe upped both his production and efficiency post-Shaq, winning an MVP, numerous All NBA first team accolades and two chips in the process.

There is no reason to say that had Shaq not been there, the Lakers could have created a contender around him (like they did in 08) while allowing Kobe to up his output with equivalent chips to boot, which would have aided his perception among stats obsessed folks. Kobe sacrificed his individual game to cater for Shaq's demands (Shaq insulted him public several times and refused to play defense if he did not receive enough touches) while being the main ball handler and playmaker, showing he could co-exist with another ball-hungry maniac. Thus his time with Shaq should be a positive to his legacy, not a negative, as it shows his flexibility and winning attitude.

4) Kobe elevated those around him

Kobe elevated the status of those players around him. Two examples being Pau Gasol and Lamar Odom, whose statuses were 100% elevated next to Kobe. Both heavily credit Kobe for improving their games and mindset. Indeed, Kobe seamlessly integrated Gasol into the offensive structure in 2008, with the two working like water from the get go. It should also be noted that during these years, Kobe handled the triangle offense on the floor for the lakers and it was his responsibility to ensure it ran well, thus he should get major credit for integrating Gasol so quickly and the offensive output of the team.

With the above stats, accolades and contextualising points in mind, I think this 10-yr run of Kobe isn't bested by many. Many points in his favour are not mentioned often which I have attempted to clear up here. I only have MJ, Kareem and Lebron clearly over this 10-yr prime run, with Kobe's run ranking nicely against Magic, Bird, Curry, Wilt etc.

And to me, a 10-yr run is sufficient to decide on all time rankings.

Where would you rank it?

[Rishkar]

Russell likely has the best 10 year stretch of all time, can see arguments for Jordan or Lebron. I think I'd take Mikan (technically not 10 years but played well enough to make up the gap), Oscar, Hakeem, David Robinson, Kareem, Magic, KG, Shaq, and Duncan as well. I feel Bird, West, Jokic, Giannis, Curry, Moses, Nash might all have a case as well

[rebirthoftheM]

Russell likely has the best 10 year stretch of all time, can see arguments for Jordan or Lebron. I think I'd take Mikan (technically not 10 years but played well enough to make up the gap), Oscar, Hakeem, David Robinson, Kareem, Magic, KG, Shaq, and Duncan as well. I feel Bird, West, Jokic, Giannis, Curry, Moses, Nash might all have a case as well

Explain the following briefly:

1) D-Rob
2) KG
3) Giannis
4) Moses

[Rishkar]

Russell likely has the best 10 year stretch of all time, can see arguments for Jordan or Lebron. I think I'd take Mikan (technically not 10 years but played well enough to make up the gap), Oscar, Hakeem, David Robinson, Kareem, Magic, KG, Shaq, and Duncan as well. I feel Bird, West, Jokic, Giannis, Curry, Moses, Nash might all have a case as well

Explain the following briefly:

1) D-Rob
2) KG
3) Giannis
4) Moses

While I believe that Kobe was a better playoff performer than Robinson, he has a tremendous edge in regular season value that I weight heavily.

KG rates much higher in plus minus data than anyone not named Lebron or (in some models) Duncan. He was a defensive force and I believe his value on that end of the court was greater than what Kobe brought on offense.

Giannis and Moses are in my debatable tier, I would have to look into it further to see how they match up. The argument boils down to better peaks with weaker surrounding years. Both were closer to the top of their respective eras than Kobe was as well (as seen by them having more MVPs). I don't want to die on the hill of arguing them over Kobe, but I think it is very reasonable. And finally, I'm really not intending to bash Kobe, he was a joy to watch. I just can't reasonably rate him as high as most people do

[rebirthoftheM]

Russell likely has the best 10 year stretch of all time, can see arguments for Jordan or Lebron. I think I'd take Mikan (technically not 10 years but played well enough to make up the gap), Oscar, Hakeem, David Robinson, Kareem, Magic, KG, Shaq, and Duncan as well. I feel Bird, West, Jokic, Giannis, Curry, Moses, Nash might all have a case as well

Explain the following briefly:

1) D-Rob
2) KG
3) Giannis
4) Moses

While I believe that Kobe was a better playoff performer than Robinson, he has a tremendous edge in regular season value that I weight heavily.

KG rates much higher in plus minus data than anyone not named Lebron or (in some models) Duncan. He was a defensive force and I believe his value on that end of the court was greater than what Kobe brought on offense.

Giannis and Moses are in my debatable tier, I would have to look into it further to see how they match up. The argument boils down to better peaks with weaker surrounding years. Both were closer to the top of their respective eras than Kobe was as well (as seen by them having more MVPs). I don't want to die on the hill of arguing them over Kobe, but I think it is very reasonable. And finally, I'm really not intending to bash Kobe, he was a joy to watch. I just can't reasonably rate him as high as most people do

Do you take era differences, particularly the tougher defenses Kobe faced into account? Many do not but I think it is highly relevant.

Re D-Rob: You mean mostly in analytic categories? That is true, D-Rob was a box score king and elite in +/-.

Having said that, the goal is to win rings, with RS all about positioning.

What use is that edge when he couldn't replicate it when it matterered? When defenses toughen & game plan against you? 4 sub 47% FG outings over a 10 year run for a big is atrocious. How do we sidestep these flameouts in light of the ultimate goal of winning?

My view is, a 3 ppg, 3% TS drop in the PS just can't be ignored. Also near parity between assists & turnovers is no good. He only mustered 24 PPG in the RS during that period and 21 PPG in the PS. The massive gap in offensive output between the two cannot be handwaved surely?

Re KG: I have two points

First, how do we sidestep KG offensive (particularly scoring) flameouts in the PS in light of the goal of winning a chip? How do we sidestep his scoring issues in the PS, given scoring is the most direct contribution one can make on a team (literally contributing to a score while a shot that was block was never certain to go in)? How do we sidestep his reliance on his inefficient turnaround jumpshots in the PS when he could have attacked the rim more?

Big gap in their PS resilleince. Kobe was consistent while KG fell off. Can't be ignored.


Also I have posed this to KG fans in previous years and I have not yet received a satisfactory response:

KG's +/- fell off between 05-07, in large part due to his defense +/-.

Yet per the eye test and common consensus, KG was still an elite defender these years.

Yet his numbers suffered and his team's defenses terrible (not his fault imo as he was surrounded by trash).

Yet Kobe was surrounded by trash offensive players between 05-07 yet dragged his teams to top 10 offenses all 3 years.

Does this simple example not show that one player's ability to control his team's offense is far greater than one player's ability to control his team's defense? That team defense is far more about the quality of the cast, rules and coaching?

And if this is so, why do we treat both impacts the same in rankings when one should easily be considered more?

Imo the gap between the two on offense is not made up by KG's properly credited defensive impact. Kobe's superior offensive impact weighs heavier, particularly in the playoffs and 05-07.

Also this was not about peaks which last at max 3 years. I recognise Kobe's absolute peak isn't as high as others but this was about a 10-yr prime.

Re Giannis:Excluding this year, Giannis has not yet completed a 10-yr prime. He has two sub 15 ppg seasons during his 10 year stretch. 4 of those playoff runs he failed to crack 26 PPG avergaging less than 59% TS and equal Kobe in APG, a huge offensive output gap when you consider era differences. How do we sidestep this gap?

I'll get back to Moses Malone, however briefly, despite his stats, he was never an elite offensive generator when you consider both scoring and playmaking. And his defensive impact not there.

[One_and_Done]

I have Kobe out of my top 20 all-time probably, so you can infer from that where I rank his prime. Not terribly high.

[70sFan]

I think it's on the lower part of top 20, but I'd have to think about differences between such list and all-time list.

[trelos6]

10 year prime isn’t too far off career value. Especially since I weight peak more heavily.

I’d have guys with clear All-Time level peaks over him: LBJ, MJ, KAJ, Russell, Shaq, Hakeem, Duncan, KG, Wilt, Magic, Bird, Steph, Mikan

You could probably argue him in the next tier, though at the bottom of it, guys with 5+ years of MVP level play. KD, D-Rob, West, Oscar, Kobe.

So I have him around 18th.

[Rishkar]

Explain the following briefly:

1) D-Rob
2) KG
3) Giannis
4) Moses

While I believe that Kobe was a better playoff performer than Robinson, he has a tremendous edge in regular season value that I weight heavily.

KG rates much higher in plus minus data than anyone not named Lebron or (in some models) Duncan. He was a defensive force and I believe his value on that end of the court was greater than what Kobe brought on offense.

Giannis and Moses are in my debatable tier, I would have to look into it further to see how they match up. The argument boils down to better peaks with weaker surrounding years. Both were closer to the top of their respective eras than Kobe was as well (as seen by them having more MVPs). I don't want to die on the hill of arguing them over Kobe, but I think it is very reasonable. And finally, I'm really not intending to bash Kobe, he was a joy to watch. I just can't reasonably rate him as high as most people do

Do you take era differences, particularly the tougher defenses Kobe faced into account? Many do not but I think it is highly relevant.

I view era as something outside of a players control and find it hard to penalize them for it. Additionally, I think the late 60s was an era of considerable talent, eclipsing that of the 70s and 80s; it is comparable competition to what Jordan and Hakeem faced.

Re D-Rob: You mean mostly in analytic categories? That is true, D-Rob was a box score king and elite in +/-.

Having said that, the goal is to win rings, with RS all about positioning.

What use is that edge when he couldn't replicate it when it matterered? When defenses toughen & game plan against you? 4 sub 47% FG outings over a 10 year run for a big is atrocious. How do we sidestep these flameouts in light of the ultimate goal of winning?

My view is, a 3 ppg, 3% TS drop in the PS just can't be ignored. Also near parity between assists & turnovers is no good. He only mustered 24 PPG in the RS during that period and 21 PPG in the PS. The massive gap in offensive output between the two cannot be handwaved surely?

While I agree that Robinson had a significant dropoff, it is important to note that regular season Robinson is a Goat candidate. Despite the dropoff, he was still incredibly good. And the dropoff was mostly offensive as opposing defenses zeroed in on him, he was still an elite defensive force. I value the regular season highly because it gives us bigger sample sizes for data.

Re KG: I have two points

First, how do we sidestep KG offensive (particularly scoring) flameouts in the PS in light of the goal of winning a chip? How do we sidestep his scoring issues in the PS, given scoring is the most direct contribution one can make on a team (literally contributing to a score while a shot that was block was never certain to go in)? How do we sidestep his reliance on his inefficient turnaround jumpshots in the PS when he could have attacked the rim more?

Big gap in their PS resilleince. Kobe was consistent while KG fell off. Can't be ignored.

I think this is a similar situation to above, where the defensive value is a deciding factor. KG was better in the regular season, and he didn't get many chances to perform in the playoffs during his peak. Kobe is one of the most resilient scorers ever, I'll acknowledge that. But, KG is a better rebounder and defender, while being a comparable playmaker.

Also I have posed this to KG fans in previous years and I have not yet received a satisfactory response:

KG's +/- fell off between 05-07, in large part due to his defense +/-.

Yet per the eye test and common consensus, KG was still an elite defender these years.

Yet his numbers suffered and his team's defenses terrible (not his fault imo as he was surrounded by trash).

Yet Kobe was surrounded by trash offensive players between 05-07 yet dragged his teams to top 10 offenses all 3 years.

Does this simple example not show that one player's ability to control his team's offense is far greater than one player's ability to control his team's defense? That team defense is far more about the quality of the cast, rules and coaching?

And if this is so, why do we treat both impacts the same in rankings when one should easily be considered more?

Well, this is certainly an interesting take. While an offensive player has a greater ability to initiate offense upon demand, and is more directly involved in a an offensive possession, I find it a hard sell to say that one half of the game is more important than another. My counter argument is scalability, elite defense slots in with other talent much better than offensively oriented players. Elite defense from a star empowers other players to take more risks on that side of the ball. It's a complimentary skillet, and doesn't reduce the impact of your teammates.

Imo the gap between the two on offense is not made up by KG's properly credited defensive impact. Kobe's superior offensive impact weighs heavier, particularly in the playoffs and 05-07.

Also this was not about peaks which last at max 3 years. I recognise Kobe's absolute peak isn't as high as others but this was about a 10-yr prime.

Re Giannis:Excluding this year, Giannis has not yet completed a 10-yr prime. He has two sub 15 ppg seasons during his 10 year stretch. 4 of those playoff runs he failed to crack 26 PPG avergaging less than 59% TS and equal Kobe in APG, a huge offensive output gap when you consider era differences. How do we sidestep this gap?

I'll get back to Moses Malone, however briefly, despite his stats, he was never an elite offensive generator when you consider both scoring and playmaking. And his defensive impact not there.

I don't weight impact for position, and I don't think Kobe was providing anywhere near the defensive impact of Giannis or Moses. Nor did he provide the same rebounding. Both players were good enough on offense that they seem to just be more valuable than Kobe, who's defense dropped off in about 04-05 right as he started to become an elite offensive player. He just doesn't have the same two way impact, but he's definitely on the same tier as these two in my mind.

[eminence]

Probably not meaningfully different from his career ranking, maybe a slight drop as Kobe had better than average longevity. So still somewhere in the teens.

Just thinking of guards.

No real case against (imo):
MJ
Magic
Curry (for career he'd be with Oscar, also dropping if you don't skip '20)

Has a case, but I prefer the other guy:
Oscar

Has a case, but I prefer Kobe:
West
CP3

So around #5 guard, can see a bit higher or lower, but not much.

[Special_Puppy]

Probably not meaningfully different from his career ranking, maybe a slight drop as Kobe had better than average longevity. So still somewhere in the teens.

Just thinking of guards.

No real case against (imo):
MJ
Magic
Curry (for career he'd be with Oscar, also dropping if you don't skip '20)

Has a case, but I prefer the other guy:
Oscar

Has a case, but I prefer Kobe:
West
CP3

So around #5 guard, can see a bit higher or lower, but not much.

I'd 100% put CP3 over Kobe.

[MiamiBulls]

Only 10 year Prime, IMO would be clearly ahead of Kobe's atp would be Kareem, LeBron, MJ, Hakeem, Shaq, Duncan, Garnett, Russell. Any other names would debatable. So Kobe's 10 Year Prime would be around 9th to 11th.

[onedayattatime]

To be honest, I don't think it's all that special. Kobe has an unusually low peak for ATGs (i.e. Wade arguably has a better peak). And notably during this span, he missed the playoffs despite having a reasonable supporting cast headlined by Odom and Caron Butler. Surely that's better than support that (for example) Garnett, Robinson, and others were able to reach the playoffs with.

[ceiling raiser]

Top 50 all-time 10yr prime. One of the best to ever play.

[canada_dry]

For prime specifically? Top 10.

Sent from my SM-G960W using RealGM mobile app

[Matt15]

Top 10 all time

[Narigo]

Top 15-20

[rk2023]

Non-zero argument for top 10. More likely to say top 15, and I’m failing to see the argument against such.

We’ll see if Luka could surpass this. Feel confident that Giannis (age 24-33) and Joker (age 26-35) will do this as well.

Way too soon to say for Wemby. I think Shai is a sneaky candidate here similar to Luka (pending how he holds up in the playoffs), as I see some very tangible shades of Kobe & Wade in his game.

[Primedeion]

It's easily in the top ten.

Top 3ish player in 2001, 2002, 2003, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, and 2010

Reasonable to strong argument for BITW in multiple seasons (06, 08)

Amazing impact metrics, incredible postseason runs, all-time great peak, ridiculous statistical seasons, etc

He has it all.

[70sFan]

It's easily in the top ten.

I don't think it's"easily" when you can "easily" think about ~12 players with arguably better 10 years prime than him.

Top 3ish player in 2001, 2002, 2003, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, and 2010

I don't think most people have Kobe in top 3 in 2002. 2003, 2006 and 2007 are also arguable.

Amazing impact metrics, incredible postseason runs, all-time great peak, ridiculous statistical seasons, etc

What do you mean by "impact metrics"? The ones derived from plus minus data are far from "amazing" for top 20 caliber player.