Curry vs Shaq

[rrravenred]

They had to reinforce basket stanchions league-wide to stop him from breaking them with his power dunks

In a literal sense, they did change the rules and standards applying to NBA baskets because of him.

In what way would you say that has changed the way in which the game is played going forward?

[EmpireFalls]

They had to reinforce basket stanchions league-wide to stop him from breaking them with his power dunks

In a literal sense, they did change the rules and standards applying to NBA baskets because of him.

In what way would you say that has changed the way in which the game is played going forward?

They had to reinforce basket stanchions league-wide to stop him from breaking them with his power dunks

In a literal sense, they did change the rules and standards applying to NBA baskets because of him.

Yeah, that’s not transforming the game though.

I’m just being pedantic.

Steph hasn’t changed a single rule nor has he changed the way the game is played either, obviously.

[PistolPeteJR]

What rules were changed because of Shaq?

The main thing I’m aware of is rules being changed to make hack-a-Shaq less effective at the end of a game. I wouldn’t exactly say it’s all that flattering to have the rules be changed to make exploitation of your *weaknesses* less effective. I know they also changed how the hoops were made because of Shaq, but that’s not a rule change.

I guess maybe you’re referring to zone defenses being allowed again? Shaq was at least partly an impetus for that and was affected by it, though I wouldn’t go so far as to say the rules were changed “because of Shaq.” Even if we decided to give Shaq primary credit for that rule change, though, I don’t think it leads to a conclusion that Shaq transformed the game as much as Steph.

They had to reinforce basket stanchions league-wide to stop him from breaking them with his power dunks

In a literal sense, they did change the rules and standards applying to NBA baskets because of him.

Yeah, that’s not transforming the game though.

Illegal defense was definitely impacted largely by him. Hack-a is another thing. In addition to that, Richard Jefferson has come out and said teams would literally fill their rosters with bodies just to go at Shaq, despite lack of skill. If all of that doesn’t change the game from a strategic standpoint and rule standpoint, I don’t know what does.

[rrravenred]

I’m just being pedantic.

Steph hasn’t changed a single rule nor has he changed the way the game is played either, obviously.

Fair enough. My sarcasm meter ain't what it used to be.

It's arguable the Warriors pioneered the distributed pace-and-space offence that's dominant today, and Steph is the unicorn piece within that team. Which doesn't necessarily disprove your point.

YMMV.

[EmpireFalls]

I’m just being pedantic.

Steph hasn’t changed a single rule nor has he changed the way the game is played either, obviously.

Fair enough. My sarcasm meter ain't what it used to be.

It's arguable the Warriors pioneered the distributed pace-and-space offence that's dominant today, and Steph is the unicorn piece within that team. Which doesn't necessarily disprove your point.

YMMV.

It’s not arguable whatsoever, to me, unless we’re talking about a tenuous link.

The Morey Rockets are the avatar for the majority of modern offenses. What are you watching when you say pace-and-space, that defines the Warriors and other teams, exactly? Other than “they take lot of 3s”? Serious question, to both you and Jake.

To me, the Dubs motion offense placing their best scorers in off ball roles sprinting around endless screens is very unlike today’s average modern NBA offense.

If other players who play a style like Curry existed, then we’d have a relevant example. But they don’t exist, and no one really plays like him. If anything, Draymond’s usage in the high post as the playmaking fulcrum of an offense with hand offs and high PnRs is the more copied part of their offense.

James Harden and the Morey Rockets offense has far more disciples than Steph Curry and the Warriors offense does.

And again, I say this not as an insult of Curry but in fact as deference to his unique ability. No one really plays like him because no one can.

[OhayoKD]

Doesn’t Shaq have the best all time PO Offensive+ in a five year span?

No?

Shaq's best 5-year span IIRC is +8.8

Nash is +10.1
Lebron is +9.9

Fwiw, Magic is 8.7

[OhayoKD]

Shaq. His peak in the playoffs/finals are goat level.

Curry not so much.

If we ignore actual goat-level playoffs/finals maybe.

also make sure to forget that defense, playmaking, floor generalship, and ball-handling is a thing...

[Johnny Tomala]

Shaq. Better in the playoffs. Shaq 10th all time, Curry not in top 15 for me.

[f4p]

I’m just being pedantic.

Steph hasn’t changed a single rule nor has he changed the way the game is played either, obviously.

Fair enough. My sarcasm meter ain't what it used to be.

It's arguable the Warriors pioneered the distributed pace-and-space offence that's dominant today, and Steph is the unicorn piece within that team. Which doesn't necessarily disprove your point.

YMMV.

It’s not arguable whatsoever, to me, unless we’re talking about a tenuous link.

The Morey Rockets are the avatar for the majority of modern offenses. What are you watching when you say pace-and-space, that defines the Warriors and other teams, exactly? Other than “they take lot of 3s”? Serious question, to both you and Jake.

yeah, i've never understood this idea that curry changed how the game is played. analytics was pushing 3's big time before the warriors won in 2016 and, while the rate of increase in 3's did go up a little in the few years after 2016, we're talking the difference in like 1 three per game when teams were already taking 30+ 3's and it only took a few years for 3's to level back off, meaning at best they slightly accelerated a trend that would have happened with or without them.

now, you can say the warriors popularized the switch everything defense with versatile defenders which, whether they foresaw this or not, became seen to be the way to guard the warriors themselves. and that seemingly killed off the unswitchable big man (though the famous "can't play kanter" moment was also against morey's rockets, who took iso-hunting to the next level). so
i would say they certainly affected the types of players on the court, but since most people mean "teams shoot 3's" to say curry changed the game, i would say they are way off.

[MacGill]

Shaq for me! Top 5 player of all-time. Aside from LBJ, there is no player altering my current top 10 who played in the past 20 years. Giannis/Jokic are on watch.

Not even Duncan?

TD is already comfortably in my top 10. To confirm, no drafted player post-2003, aside from LBJ, is in my current top 10.

[EmpireFalls]

Fair enough. My sarcasm meter ain't what it used to be.

It's arguable the Warriors pioneered the distributed pace-and-space offence that's dominant today, and Steph is the unicorn piece within that team. Which doesn't necessarily disprove your point.

YMMV.

It’s not arguable whatsoever, to me, unless we’re talking about a tenuous link.

The Morey Rockets are the avatar for the majority of modern offenses. What are you watching when you say pace-and-space, that defines the Warriors and other teams, exactly? Other than “they take lot of 3s”? Serious question, to both you and Jake.

now, you can say the warriors popularized the switch everything defense with versatile defenders which, whether they foresaw this or not, became seen to be the way to guard the warriors themselves. and that seemingly killed off the unswitchable big man (though the famous "can't play kanter" moment was also against morey's rockets, who took iso-hunting to the next level)

I would actually give the Heatles era Heat more credit for changing the NBA in this respect than the Warriors. Bosh at the 5 and James sized up at the 4 with their aggressive defensive scheme happened 3 years before the Warriors stopped starting a traditional center in Bogut.

[parsnips33]

The trend started by Steph is not the general increase of 3 point shooting within a team's offense - it's the increasing volume in off-the-dribble pull up jumpers behind the 3 point line. Steph (and to a lesser extent Dame Lillard) made that a part of every single offense in the league

[trex_8063]

Steph's career plus-minus is better than Shaq's.

I'll take your word for it, though we have better metrics than raw plus-minus, if that's what you reference.

J.E. recently released career ['97-'24] RAPM's, and Curry is ahead, though only barely (+7.8 to +7.2).
Bear in mind that for Shaq that sample both:
a) misses some prime years; years where, for example, he finished top-10 in regular-season AuPM in all three of '94-'96 [as high as 3rd], while also having very impressive playoff runs in both '95 and '96. And....
b) it INCLUDES all of his post-prime and twilight (at least five years worth: '07-'11 [even '06 is only on the fringes of what might be called prime]).

Will Curry's remain ahead if he continues to play until, say......2028? Or will those post-prime years drag it down?

I speak semi-rhetorically; obviously we'll have to wait and see. However, I think it's fairly for-certain assumption that yes: subsequent years will drag his figure downward.


I also don't know if the figures he used to arrive at the career number were year-to-year scaled (his prior yearly sheets were not). However, I note that Steph perhaps hasn't rated quite as impressively in yearly RAPM rank.

Below is Steph from '13 through '19 rank:
37th, 6th, 2nd, 4th, 1st, 2nd, 4th

On the heels of Shaq's finishes of 10th, 3rd, and 7th in rs AuPM ['94-'96], here are his league rank in RAPM from '97 through '06 [full decade]:
17th, 1st, 2nd, 1st, 2nd, 1st, 3rd, 2nd, 3rd, 12th

That's eight consecutive years where he's never worse than 3rd (3x #1).
It's the years AFTER '06 that are dragging his career RAPM down [below Curry's]: Shaq was tied for 50th in the league in '07, 33rd in '08, and then plummets from there (tied for 86th in '09, a substantial negative in '10, and a negligible positive in '11).



The game has changed a fair bit, but Shaq was a monster in his league environment. I remember genuinely questioning if '00 Shaq was the most dominant relative to league ever.
Broad strokes of that year, just note that he made a clean sweep of each box-amalgamated metrics: 1st in the league in PER, WS/48, and BPM, and did so while playing >40 mpg (4th in league). Then in the playoffs [en route to title] he was 1st in PER and WS/48, 3rd in BPM (while playing 43.5 mpg [1st and 2nd place in playoff BPM were 5 and 4-game samples, respectively, at around 39 mpg).
And he was #1 in league in RAPM, as well.

I don't feel like Steph had a year where he crushed everything (rs AND playoffs) to such a definitive degree as this. I think he matches it or even marginally exceeds it during the rs in '16, but then falls off a fair bit in the playoffs.
'17 might be a better all-around year, honestly, but it doesn't quite match the '00 Shaq template of total dominance, imo.


And yeah: Shaq's prime and career are longer.

So idk; it's still Shaq pretty clearly ahead for me.