Zach Edey, 7-4

[King Ken]

Lopez is more impactful now than he was then because he changed his game. I don't think anyone is arguing that Edey can't put up some empty offensive stats - Boban can, too.

He's an NBA vet so he knows the game in and out but that's partially due to Giannis. He wasn't anywhere near this good defensively in Brooklyn. Giannis makes life a lot easier for anyone defensively.

They wouldn't be empty stats even in limited minutes. You are talking about a massive gap in talent, ability, and feel when you bring someone like Boban into the convo. Boban is ass. He's not even a gadget player.

I guess I am confused about how Edey could be an MVP caliber player in one system, but a 15 minute a game player in another. Either he's an MVP caliber player or he's not - I can certainly buy "he'd be more effective here", we see that all the time - but you are talking about a guy being a top 5 talent and teams not choosing to adapt their systems to him?

Teams don't use centers as a base of their offense outside of heliocentric teams like Atlanta. Denver, Philly, and Sacramento do but they use their centers as the primary hub. Minnesota used to do this and they had so much trouble doing it effectively to the point where they stopped it altogether after many years of trying. Houston should fully move to this style of play with Sengun which they are starting to do. That's completely different. Other than that, no one uses centers like that beyond rim running, stretch spacing, and being versatile screeners. Teams don't use 5s offensively like that anymore like they did in the 90s and 2000s when it was critical. You even had post defenders like Jason Collins and Perk.

I don't know how many times I got to say this. The game is just a lot different.

I think what you are trying to ask me is what's so good about Edey where he's a MVP candidate.

Elite feel for the game, a tremendous feel for where to be even when the play dies.
Elite awareness
Elite movement big but that's not a big deal. Capela is also this.
Tremendous POA screener, and his ability for screen assists is elite
Elite IQ roller who has fantastic hands and strength. He's also a flexible finisher as well. This is what gets rollers in trouble but he's tremendous at it. Not explosive in traffic but has some explosiveness in space when finishing.
Limited wasted movements, this is extremely hard to find for centers and plays at a nice pace. Not really fast but he's always moving and his stamina is really good.
Elite base, the people who think he's just big confuse his base strength as a strength and think it's just his size when it's really his base.
Good post up player. I don't believe he's anywhere near as good at it as he did in college but he's still a bucket back to the basket and draws doubles and will draw doubles like he did in college. I don't believe he's good enough to be an offensive hub if that's what you are asking that Jokic or Embiid is but I do think he has tremendous value that might be not valued everywhere.

He's a big who will do most of his damage in movement, PnR, crashing the glass offensively, quick hit post-ups, and just overall BBIQ in terms of movement. He's a helper far more than a hub.

[babyjax13]

He's an NBA vet so he knows the game in and out but that's partially due to Giannis. He wasn't anywhere near this good defensively in Brooklyn. Giannis makes life a lot easier for anyone defensively.

They wouldn't be empty stats even in limited minutes. You are talking about a massive gap in talent, ability, and feel when you bring someone like Boban into the convo. Boban is ass. He's not even a gadget player.

I guess I am confused about how Edey could be an MVP caliber player in one system, but a 15 minute a game player in another. Either he's an MVP caliber player or he's not - I can certainly buy "he'd be more effective here", we see that all the time - but you are talking about a guy being a top 5 talent and teams not choosing to adapt their systems to him?

Teams don't use centers as a base of their offense outside of heliocentric teams like Atlanta. Denver, Philly, and Sacramento do but they use their centers as the primary hub. Minnesota used to do this and they had so much trouble doing it effectively to the point where they stopped it altogether after many years of trying. Houston should fully move to this style of play with Sengun which they are starting to do. That's completely different. Other than that, no one uses centers like that beyond rim running, stretch spacing, and being versatile screeners. Teams don't use 5s offensively like that anymore like they did in the 90s and 2000s when it was critical. You even had post defenders like Jason Collins and Perk.

I don't know how many times I got to say this. The game is just a lot different.

I think what you are trying to ask me is what's so good about Edey where he's a MVP candidate.

Elite feel for the game, a tremendous feel for where to be even when the play dies.
Elite awareness
Elite movement big but that's not a big deal. Capela is also this.
Tremendous POA screener, and his ability for screen assists is elite
Elite IQ roller who has fantastic hands and strength. He's also a flexible finisher as well. This is what gets rollers in trouble but he's tremendous at it. Not explosive in traffic but has some explosiveness in space when finishing.
Limited wasted movements, this is extremely hard to find for centers and plays at a nice pace. Not really fast but he's always moving and his stamina is really good.
Elite base, the people who think he's just big confuse his base strength as a strength and think it's just his size when it's really his base.
Good post up player. I don't believe he's anywhere near as good at it as he did in college but he's still a bucket back to the basket and draws doubles and will draw doubles like he did in college. I don't believe he's good enough to be an offensive hub if that's what you are asking that Jokic or Embiid is but I do think he has tremendous value that might be not valued everywhere.

He's a big who will do most of his damage in movement, PnR, crashing the glass offensively, quick hit post-ups, and just overall BBIQ in terms of movement. He's a helper far more than a hub.

I'm responding to this:

So my take is that Edey will likely be a good rotational backup big, think Hartenstein. But if he ends up in Atlanta, I think he's a future MVP candidate.

If you think he is that kind of player, why would he ever be a backup, anywhere? If a player has a talent to be a MVP, teams are going to build around them.

[King Ken]

I'm responding to this:

So my take is that Edey will likely be a good rotational backup big, think Hartenstein. But if he ends up in Atlanta, I think he's a future MVP candidate.

If you think he is that kind of player, why would he ever be a backup, anywhere? If a player has a talent to be a MVP, teams are going to build around them.

Because he's not an elite offensive player. He's a very good offensive player who is good defensively at things most teams don't do anymore and very bad at what everyone in the modern NBA wants from a 5. He just doesn't have a place for most teams beyond being a key reserve in limited minutes.

There isn't a need for offensive helpers like that. Even then, defense is key for offensive helpers. Gafford is a good offensive helper who is a very good defender, not an excellent defender like prime Capela and he didn't get much money in FA. He didn't get much love but now that he's in Dallas, his value has skyrocketed with Luka and Dallas has massively improved. Lively is a limited but promising offensive helper and he's averaging more in the NBA than he had in college. Why? Because of the style of offense and Luka helio style.

Let me make this easy. Edey is essentially, Draymond Green. It's clear he's an excellent ball player but most teams wouldn't know what to do with him. Hell, GS didn't even know what to do with him till Kerr came and was like, oh, I got it. Wow!

[babyjax13]

I'm responding to this:

So my take is that Edey will likely be a good rotational backup big, think Hartenstein. But if he ends up in Atlanta, I think he's a future MVP candidate.

If you think he is that kind of player, why would he ever be a backup, anywhere? If a player has a talent to be a MVP, teams are going to build around them.

Because he's not an elite offensive player. He's a very good offensive player who is good defensively at things most teams don't do anymore and very bad at what everyone in the modern NBA wants from a 5. He just doesn't have a place for most teams beyond being a key reserve in limited minutes.

There isn't a need for offensive helpers like that. Even then, defense is key for offensive helpers. Gafford is a good offensive helper who is a very good defender, not an excellent defender like prime Capela and he didn't get much money in FA. He didn't get much love but now that he's in Dallas, his value has skyrocketed with Luka and Dallas has massively improved. Lively is a limited but promising offensive helper and he's averaging more in the NBA than he had in college. Why? Because of the style of offense and Luka helio style.

Let me make this easy. Edey is essentially, Draymond Green. It's clear he's an excellent ball player but most teams wouldn't know what to do with him. Hell, GS didn't even know what to do with him till Kerr came and was like, oh, I got it. Wow!

So, is it fair to say, then, that you see Edey as an MVP-caliber talent that teams are going to be too dumb to use?

[King Ken]

I'm responding to this:



If you think he is that kind of player, why would he ever be a backup, anywhere? If a player has a talent to be a MVP, teams are going to build around them.

Because he's not an elite offensive player. He's a very good offensive player who is good defensively at things most teams don't do anymore and very bad at what everyone in the modern NBA wants from a 5. He just doesn't have a place for most teams beyond being a key reserve in limited minutes.

There isn't a need for offensive helpers like that. Even then, defense is key for offensive helpers. Gafford is a good offensive helper who is a very good defender, not an excellent defender like prime Capela and he didn't get much money in FA. He didn't get much love but now that he's in Dallas, his value has skyrocketed with Luka and Dallas has massively improved. Lively is a limited but promising offensive helper and he's averaging more in the NBA than he had in college. Why? Because of the style of offense and Luka helio style.

Let me make this easy. Edey is essentially, Draymond Green. It's clear he's an excellent ball player but most teams wouldn't know what to do with him. Hell, GS didn't even know what to do with him till Kerr came and was like, oh, I got it. Wow!

So, is it fair to say, then, that you see Edey as an MVP-caliber talent that teams are going to be too dumb to use?

I don't believe he's an MVP-caliber talent on most teams. As I told many Hawk fans in the past when JC was averaging 23.8ppg per36, it's never going to matter because defense>offense unless you are elite offensively at the 5. Only elite offense > elite defense at the 5. Meaning Jokic and Embiid > Gobert. Very good defense is massively greater than very good offense at the 5 in the modern NBA.

The reason he would be for the Hawks is extremely situational similar to Draymond. Before you bring up Draymond and MVP-caliber, tremendous offensive numbers will always be more valued by MVP voters than elite defense. One thing you and I can agree with, prime Draymond had MVP impact on winning.

[clyde21]

11+ pages for a guy that will cap at 10 mpg in the NBA

What are we doing here?

This is a unique kid..

Is he? how's he that much different than say Clingan

[NO-KG-AI]

Damn, MVP Edey in Atlanta. What could have been, Atlanta was also the only team that was gonna make Cam Reddish the best player in the league. We’re gonna miss out on a dynasty now.

[King Ken]

11+ pages for a guy that will cap at 10 mpg in the NBA

What are we doing here?

This is a unique kid..

Is he? how's he that much different than say Clingan

Big difference. The thing they are both is offensive helpers but their much different.

Clingan is a tremendous athletic for his size. His foot injury has slowed him down some this year but Clingan can score transition baskets. He got legit speed when healthy.

Clingan will be a better post player in the NBA. He's just much more athletic in the paint and his rebounding radius is better. He doesn't really have many post moves but for what he has, it will be effective on any level.

Not as good at screening but he's pretty good considering his age

He's a really good passer and outside of Flip, the best passing big in this class. I actually like Donovan passing more because his post up will actually translate well unlike Flip.

Issues
The reason why as a helper, Clingan is capped at good

Feel for the game, still rely too much on athleticism for his size. Offensive awareness is good not great which is fine considering his age.

Pace is poor, he stands around too much and wastes movement. I would like to see him develop into a better movement player

Stamina is a massive issue which could explain the pace issue. His stamina is really bad but he exerts a lot of energy so it's not due to lack of effort or hustle.

Defensively,

I like a lot

Good awareness

Hard to score on due to length and athleticism

While he can give up on plays when he's tired, he's legit when he has energy.

Can switch and defend smaller player decently.

Has decent lateral mobility for the next level and he's terrific for his massive size.

He's a good helper and is a good defender who projects well on both ends potentially.

Health, stamina, and pace especially on offense is his major concerns.

Clingan is definitely a better prospect in general but he has work to do on the health and stamina side. I don't see anyone investing a top 10 pick with his health concerns.

[babyjax13]

Because he's not an elite offensive player. He's a very good offensive player who is good defensively at things most teams don't do anymore and very bad at what everyone in the modern NBA wants from a 5. He just doesn't have a place for most teams beyond being a key reserve in limited minutes.

There isn't a need for offensive helpers like that. Even then, defense is key for offensive helpers. Gafford is a good offensive helper who is a very good defender, not an excellent defender like prime Capela and he didn't get much money in FA. He didn't get much love but now that he's in Dallas, his value has skyrocketed with Luka and Dallas has massively improved. Lively is a limited but promising offensive helper and he's averaging more in the NBA than he had in college. Why? Because of the style of offense and Luka helio style.

Let me make this easy. Edey is essentially, Draymond Green. It's clear he's an excellent ball player but most teams wouldn't know what to do with him. Hell, GS didn't even know what to do with him till Kerr came and was like, oh, I got it. Wow!

So, is it fair to say, then, that you see Edey as an MVP-caliber talent that teams are going to be too dumb to use?

I don't believe he's an MVP-caliber talent on most teams. As I told many Hawk fans in the past when JC was averaging 23.8ppg per36, it's never going to matter because defense>offense unless you are elite offensively at the 5. Only elite offense > elite defense at the 5. Meaning Jokic and Embiid > Gobert. Very good defense is massively greater than very good offense at the 5 in the modern NBA.

The reason he would be for the Hawks is extremely situational similar to Draymond. Before you bring up Draymond and MVP-caliber, tremendous offensive numbers will always be more valued by MVP voters than elite defense. One thing you and I can agree with, prime Draymond had MVP impact on winning.

I think your comments about where you see him being most valuable are insightful, but that wide of variance is a commitment I wouldn't be willing to make. Not sure I would say Draymond had an MVP impact on winning, but very important player nonetheless.

[CptCrunch]

MVP talent on one team is an all star even in Detroit. Edey would be a clear top 3 pick if he had that kind of talent.

Edey is closer to G-League than all-star.

[ConSarnit]

Damn, MVP Edey in Atlanta. What could have been, Atlanta was also the only team that was gonna make Cam Reddish the best player in the league. We’re gonna miss out on a dynasty now.

Absolute insanity. I can’t believe he’s making these types of proclamations again, even after being proven dead wrong the first time.

[raleigh]

Teams don't use centers as a base of their offense outside of heliocentric teams like Atlanta.

The irony here is that Atlanta doesn't use a center as the base of the offense anymore either.

[King Ken]

Teams don't use centers as a base of their offense outside of heliocentric teams like Atlanta.

The irony here is that Atlanta doesn't use a center as the base of the offense anymore either.

We still run our offense through the actions of the 5. That hasn't changed. We run a lot more plays than spamming the 1-5 PnR with Quin but most of our plays still heavily involved the 5 and always will. That's generally the case with most heliocentric teams with guy like Luka or Trae who's the most extreme of the Harden prototype.

I really don't like taking about a single team unless I am on a team page and this isn't that. So this is my last post addressing the Hawks on this sub.

[King Ken]

Damn, MVP Edey in Atlanta. What could have been, Atlanta was also the only team that was gonna make Cam Reddish the best player in the league. We’re gonna miss out on a dynasty now.

Absolute insanity. I can’t believe he’s making these types of proclamations again, even after being proven dead wrong the first time.

I've posted for many years, made many claims but it's funny, the haters just focus on what they want. At the end of the day, if you want to hang your hat on my miss you are free to do so. That said, you are clown for doing so especially when for years, I've been doing exceptionally well on my tiers. Do i have misses, sure but few and few by each year and my hits like Jalen Williams have been major coups but of course, when you hit, no one cares. Just the misses. Even when you own the misses, that's what the haters value.

Do better. I expect the hater to hate, he's been a hoe for years and will die a hoe but you should do better. I don't even know who you are. I don't recall interacting with you in the past unless you are an older poster with a different name. Do better

I literally said in the Jarrett Culver thread, why spend a top 10 pick drafting an obvious bust. Did anyone quote me and say, damn, you were spot on. How? No but let me speak positively of Cam as a prospect based on God given talent, Bol Bol without knowing the healthy details or R.J. and of course this is what the haters remember.

The haters gotta do better. They gotta grow. Get smarter. Watch film. Pray to God to do more with their lives than becoming a PAB.

I take risk. I believe in what I watch and what I review. I track movements, pace, everything. Am I perfect, hell no but I do enough work to be confident in what I say. It takes work to do that. You have to be able to watch a single possession for 10 minutes to explain why this possession was perfect while having the skill to pick it up while watching it in real time the first time. That's not easy to do. Also you gotta be willing to learn from your mistakes. We all make them. We can't always trust our instincts so we have to do the homework to make sure the person is the worker and mentally ready to take that leap.

[NO-KG-AI]

There is a big difference between hitting and missing, and saying stuff like Zach Edey is a bench warmer on most teams, but an MVP candidate on the Hawks and that Cam Reddish could be a scrub, but could be the best player in the league in the Hawks "system" lol.

[King Ken]

[quote="NO-KG-AI"]There is a big difference between hitting and missing, and saying stuff like Zach Edey is a bench warmer on most teams, but an MVP candidate on the Hawks and that Cam Reddish could be a scrub, but could be the best player in the league in the Hawks "system" lol.[/quote]

I don't recall saying anything specific to the Hawks on Cam on this sub. I was high on Cam in general. 3.5 tier. I flat out missed on Cam and for the reasons we even saw at Duke. Effort, motor, lack of concentration, lack of feel for the game, lack of movement outside of the occasional flash of short movement when it comes to cutting. Inconsistency with his mechanics, shooting motion changed consistently, weak hands, poor explosiveness in traffic, weak core which likely hurt him the most.

Cam had insane God-given talent. It didn't take a genius to see that. Everyone saw that. His peers in particular. But when the game became far more complex than the standard AAU and HS game, he struggled the adjust and even worse. Mentally, he just wasn't cut out for it. He never had the brain that most hoopers who start in this league have.

I still remember it may have been the 3rd or 4th game against the Nets. Cam had two good games back to back against them. Instead of having it in his mind that Prince can't guard me going right or no one can handle my dribble pull up against this team, he played them each time like it's a brand new game. Most hoopers have it in their mind this is how this team defends me, I have their number. This defender likes to do this. They don't even truly need a scouting report because they already have it in their minds based on previous experiences. They know the coverages, knows the tendencies and they feel comfortable. Cam was like a baby deer every time he stepped on the court. It was like he didn't learn ****.

Cam failed himself. Bagley failed himself. Bamba failed himself. 2nd contract Ayton failed himself. There is nothing I could have projected without getting close to Cam because sometimes, you gotta project that they will eventually find a level of professionalism but sometimes that never comes.

So when you bring up Cam Reddish, let's be clear. You are just trying to disrespect me and instead of questioning my take and asking questions, you are basically trying to say, he don't know what he's talking about, why, because he was high on Cam Reddish. You know who does things like that, Bihs! Don't be a bih. Be a man.

Stand on ****. If you find it to be questionable. Ask questions mfer. Don't be a hater. I hate to come out of character but I don't take to grown men wanting to be teenage girls well.

Quick points:

1. I am high on Edey in general. Unique prospect. He's not even the only one in this class. Oso I is another one that if he goes to the right situation, in five years, he could make a team really happy.

2. If you got questions, just ask.

3. Edey ain't dominating college basketball because he's big as hell. He's dominating because he's good as hell and he's a really good basketball player. His size is an obvious strength but it's not his sole strength.

4. Edey defensive issues are massively higher just due to his defensive pace for the next level. His offensive pace is tremendous at any level and I find it to be better than a lot of bigs right now in the NBA and like young Jokic, he doesn't get super tired. His stamina is elite for his size as is his movement and IQ. A lot of his scores literally come from what he did before he got in post position.

[azcatz11]

I think the fact that Boban exists kills the Edey argument. Boban is more talented than Edey, better hands, better shooter. Flat out better offensive player. I would say they are equally as mobile.

[raleigh]

I really don't like taking about a single team unless I am on a team page and this isn't that. So this is my last post addressing the Hawks on this sub.

The Hawks are the core of your argument, so if you're not going to address them, you're conceding the argument.

And I'm sure that's fine with everyone else here.

[King Ken]

I really don't like taking about a single team unless I am on a team page and this isn't that. So this is my last post addressing the Hawks on this sub.

The Hawks are the core of your argument, so if you're not going to address them, you're conceding the argument.

And I'm sure that's fine with everyone else here.

Quote your post and move it to the Hawks forum in the Edey thread there.

What's so hard about that?

Your post had nothing to do with Edey. It was based on the Hawks. What are you talking about? Stop arguing just to argue.

[Saints14]

I kinda like him as a backup to Jokic in Denver. Doesn't preclude them from going small when Jokic sits in the playoffs but would allow them to run the same type of stuff in the RS. Even if Edey is unplayable in the postseason if he can just help their bench in the RS when Jokic sits on a cost controlled contract for 4 years that's worth a late first