NBA 75 vs 2023 RealGM 75 (of 100)

Moderators: Clyde Frazier, Doctor MJ, trex_8063, penbeast0, PaulieWal

Doctor MJ
Senior Mod
Senior Mod
Posts: 53,190
And1: 22,201
Joined: Mar 10, 2005
Location: Cali
     

NBA 75 vs 2023 RealGM 75 (of 100) 

Post#1 » by Doctor MJ » Sun Feb 25, 2024 1:28 am

We're now 3/4ths of the way through the Top 100 project and so I thought it made sense to compare our 75 with the NBA's 75.

Players on their list but not ours:
Carmelo Anthony
Nate Archibald
Dave Bing
Bob Cousy
Billy Cunningham
Dave DeBusschere
Hal Greer
Allen Iverson
Sam Jones
Jerry Lucas
Pete Maravich
Bob McAdoo
Earl Monroe
Dennis Rodman
Bill Sharman
Bill Walton
Lenny Wilkens
Dominique Wilkins
James Worthy

And on ours but not theirs:
Chauncey Billups
Jimmy Butler
Vince Carter
Joel Embiid
Pau Gasol
Paul George
Artis Gilmore
Manu Ginobili
Draymond Green
Dwight Howard
Nikola Jokic
Bobby Jones
Bob Lanier
Tracy McGrady
Alonzo Mourning
Dikembe Mutombo
Ben Wallace
Rasheed Wallace

On both:
Spoiler:
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Ray Allen
Giannis Antetokounmpo
Paul Arizin
Charles Barkley
Rick Barry
Elgin Baylor
Larry Bird
Kobe Bryant
Wilt Chamberlain
Dave Cowens
Steph Curry
Anthony Davis
Clyde Drexler
Tim Duncan
Kevin Durant
Julius Erving
Patrick Ewing
Walt Frazier
Kevin Garnett
George Gervin
James Harden
John Havlicek
Elvin Hayes
LeBron James
Magic Johnson
Michael Jordan
Jason Kidd
Damian Lillard
Karl Malone
Moses Malone
Kevin McHale
George Mikan
Reggie Miller
Steve Nash
Dirk Nowitzki
Hakeem Olajuwon
Shaquille O'Neal
Robert Parish
Chris Paul
Gary Payton
Bob Pettit
Paul Pierce
Scottie Pippen
Willis Reed
Oscar Robertson
David Robinson
Bill Russell
Dolph Schayes
John Stockton
Isiah Thomas
Nate Thurmond
Wes Unseld
Dwyane Wade
Jerry West
Russell Westbrook
Getting ready for the RealGM 100 on the PC Board

Come join the WNBA Board if you're a fan!
AEnigma
Assistant Coach
Posts: 4,130
And1: 5,974
Joined: Jul 24, 2022

Re: NBA 75 vs 2023 RealGM 75 (of 100) 

Post#2 » by AEnigma » Sun Feb 25, 2024 1:51 am

On their list, the four names I think would fit best on our list are Rodman, Iverson, Cousy, and Worthy.

On our list, the most “replaceable” to me are Embiid, Jones, maybe one of the Wallaces or the cousins.

Gilmore’s exclusion makes sense with the framework. Bing over Lanier never made sense and has always been indefensible.

Iverson being the only different player on their list to be drafted after 1986 helps explain some of the other more baffling exclusions like Pau or Dwight or the entirety of the 2003-08 Pistons core.
Doctor MJ
Senior Mod
Senior Mod
Posts: 53,190
And1: 22,201
Joined: Mar 10, 2005
Location: Cali
     

Re: NBA 75 vs 2023 RealGM 75 (of 100) 

Post#3 » by Doctor MJ » Sun Feb 25, 2024 2:11 am

AEnigma wrote:On their list, the four names I think would fit best on our list are Rodman, Iverson, Cousy, and Worthy.

On our list, the most “replaceable” to me are Embiid, Jones, maybe one of the Wallaces or the cousins.

Gilmore’s exclusion makes sense with the framework. Bing over Lanier never made sense and has always been indefensible.

Iverson being the only different player on their list to be drafted after 1986 helps explain some of the other more baffling exclusions like Pau or Dwight or the entirety of the 2003-08 Pistons core.


Good observation but I will note they have Carmelo Anthony on their list as well.

It was harder (too hard) for new guys to make the list because of their process...but they still managed to squeeze Melo.

I think it's really quite interesting that Melo made it but Vince Carter did not.
Getting ready for the RealGM 100 on the PC Board

Come join the WNBA Board if you're a fan!
AEnigma
Assistant Coach
Posts: 4,130
And1: 5,974
Joined: Jul 24, 2022

Re: NBA 75 vs 2023 RealGM 75 (of 100) 

Post#4 » by AEnigma » Sun Feb 25, 2024 2:17 am

I think my eyes glazed over all the Knicks by rule. :lol:
One_and_Done
General Manager
Posts: 8,938
And1: 5,525
Joined: Jun 03, 2023

Re: NBA 75 vs 2023 RealGM 75 (of 100) 

Post#5 » by One_and_Done » Sun Feb 25, 2024 2:55 am

The current list, despite many flaws, is clearly a huge upgrade. The lack of Cousy is especially heartwarming
Warspite wrote:Billups was a horrible scorer who could only score with an open corner 3 or a FT.
penbeast0
Senior Mod - NBA Player Comparisons
Senior Mod - NBA Player Comparisons
Posts: 30,286
And1: 9,852
Joined: Aug 14, 2004
Location: South Florida
 

Re: NBA 75 vs 2023 RealGM 75 (of 100) 

Post#6 » by penbeast0 » Sun Feb 25, 2024 4:08 am

One_and_Done wrote:The current list, despite many flaws, is clearly a huge upgrade. The lack of Cousy is especially heartwarming


That's a little cold. I didn't vote Cousy for my top 75 but comments like that should be saved for people who really did things when playing to deserve it like Bill Laimbeer or Ron Artest.
“Most people use statistics like a drunk man uses a lamppost; more for support than illumination,” Andrew Lang.
One_and_Done
General Manager
Posts: 8,938
And1: 5,525
Joined: Jun 03, 2023

Re: NBA 75 vs 2023 RealGM 75 (of 100) 

Post#7 » by One_and_Done » Sun Feb 25, 2024 4:13 am

Cousy would make a fine janitor for a G-League team today.
Warspite wrote:Billups was a horrible scorer who could only score with an open corner 3 or a FT.
User avatar
eminence
RealGM
Posts: 16,908
And1: 11,724
Joined: Mar 07, 2015

Re: NBA 75 vs 2023 RealGM 75 (of 100) 

Post#8 » by eminence » Sun Feb 25, 2024 4:17 am

penbeast0 wrote:
One_and_Done wrote:The current list, despite many flaws, is clearly a huge upgrade. The lack of Cousy is especially heartwarming


That's a little cold. I didn't vote Cousy for my top 75 but comments like that should be saved for people who really did things when playing to deserve it like Bill Laimbeer or Ron Artest.


I'd go a step further and save it for guys off the court (a certain Utah player with a statue). Metta might still qualify.
I bought a boat.
User avatar
eminence
RealGM
Posts: 16,908
And1: 11,724
Joined: Mar 07, 2015

Re: NBA 75 vs 2023 RealGM 75 (of 100) 

Post#9 » by eminence » Sun Feb 25, 2024 4:23 am

Big differences are the NBA being unwilling to remove older players. Which makes it much much harder for the younger guys to get on, there's a few older guys I might keep on a personal top 75, but agree with the general direction of the boards list.

I do think the board tends to move up current MVP type guys a bit faster than I'd like, but the finished career guys I don't have any major issues with the boards era balance.
I bought a boat.
Doctor MJ
Senior Mod
Senior Mod
Posts: 53,190
And1: 22,201
Joined: Mar 10, 2005
Location: Cali
     

Re: NBA 75 vs 2023 RealGM 75 (of 100) 

Post#10 » by Doctor MJ » Sun Feb 25, 2024 7:11 am

eminence wrote:Big differences are the NBA being unwilling to remove older players. Which makes it much much harder for the younger guys to get on, there's a few older guys I might keep on a personal top 75, but agree with the general direction of the boards list.

I do think the board tends to move up current MVP type guys a bit faster than I'd like, but the finished career guys I don't have any major issues with the boards era balance.


Re: forced inclusion of entire previous list. Yup, that's the big sin. I'm still stunned they let that happen given that's not how previous updates to the NBA & WNBA's lists along these lines go. I feel like it's likely nobody told the voters to do this, but because the old voters were biased and the young voters they chose weren't qualified by actual expertise, this became the easy way out.

Re: current MVP guys move up too fast on RealGM. I definitely think this happens sometimes, and it speaks to a certain assumption that a guy's prime status won't age poorly that I don't necessarily object to. While it makes sense to try to be conservative in your assessment to avoid having a guy awkwardly move back down your list, I'm okay with this happening on my personal lists because it just means I changed my assessment about the guy.

Dwight Howard's the guy I think of here. I memory serves I wasn't actually a Top 100 champion for him in any project, but when he made his debut - and to this day peak - in 2011 at #39, I didn't think that was crazy high for him, because at the time I thought more highly of what could be built around him. I did not know at the time that early weirdness in his relationship with the Orlando Magic would bloom into a bizarre situation where he'd bounce from team to team insisting that he wanted to play as a volume post-scorer at a time when NBA teams were realizing that almost no one should be a volume post-scorer. I did not know, in other words, that anything built around Howard was destined to fall apart.

Depending on one's philosophy, one might believe none of this relevant, but I think the reality is that for most, even those who don't want to be swayed by stuff like this probably are.

So yeah, there's a non-zero probability that we'll eventually see how high we placed Giannis or Jokic and cringe at how much we overrated them, but I think documenting the phenomenon behind the cringe is worthwhile.
Getting ready for the RealGM 100 on the PC Board

Come join the WNBA Board if you're a fan!
User avatar
OldSchoolNoBull
General Manager
Posts: 9,075
And1: 4,466
Joined: Jun 27, 2003
Location: Ohio
 

Re: NBA 75 vs 2023 RealGM 75 (of 100) 

Post#11 » by OldSchoolNoBull » Sun Feb 25, 2024 8:03 am

Doctor MJ wrote:
eminence wrote:Big differences are the NBA being unwilling to remove older players. Which makes it much much harder for the younger guys to get on, there's a few older guys I might keep on a personal top 75, but agree with the general direction of the boards list.

I do think the board tends to move up current MVP type guys a bit faster than I'd like, but the finished career guys I don't have any major issues with the boards era balance.


Re: forced inclusion of entire previous list. Yup, that's the big sin. I'm still stunned they let that happen given that's not how previous updates to the NBA & WNBA's lists along these lines go. I feel like it's likely nobody told the voters to do this, but because the old voters were biased and the young voters they chose weren't qualified by actual expertise, this became the easy way out.


It wouldn't surprise me if the NBA did want the whole previous list to carry over - not for any ideological or basketball reasons, but public relations reasons. A majority of those older guys are still alive, and the ones that aren't, their families are probably still around and their teammates might be too. It's a very public list and if some older players who were on the 50 don't make the 75, like Maravich or Monroe or whoever, then it becomes a story. People can get offended. It's one thing to not make a list, it's another to be removed. So it wouldn't surprise me at all if the powers that be in the NBA just decided it wasn't worth the potential headaches.

But that's just pure speculation on my part.

Re: current MVP guys move up too fast on RealGM. I definitely think this happens sometimes, and it speaks to a certain assumption that a guy's prime status won't age poorly that I don't necessarily object to. While it makes sense to try to be conservative in your assessment to avoid having a guy awkwardly move back down your list, I'm okay with this happening on my personal lists because it just means I changed my assessment about the guy.

Dwight Howard's the guy I think of here. I memory serves I wasn't actually a Top 100 champion for him in any project, but when he made his debut - and to this day peak - in 2011 at #39, I didn't think that was crazy high for him, because at the time I thought more highly of what could be built around him. I did not know at the time that early weirdness in his relationship with the Orlando Magic would bloom into a bizarre situation where he'd bounce from team to team insisting that he wanted to play as a volume post-scorer at a time when NBA teams were realizing that almost no one should be a volume post-scorer. I did not know, in other words, that anything built around Howard was destined to fall apart.

Depending on one's philosophy, one might believe none of this relevant, but I think the reality is that for most, even those who don't want to be swayed by stuff like this probably are.

So yeah, there's a non-zero probability that we'll eventually see how high we placed Giannis or Jokic and cringe at how much we overrated them, but I think documenting the phenomenon behind the cringe is worthwhile.


Yeah, I've been fairly vocal about my feelings about certain active players being pushed too early. I've pointed to examples from past lists too, like when LeBron made the 2006 list despite only being in the league for three years and having won nothing at that point.

But to be fair, if you look at the NBA's 50 at 50, which was announced in 1996, they voted Shaq in, who had only played four years at that point and - though he'd been to the 1995 Finals and 1996 ECF - hadn't won anything; likewise they voted David Robinson in, who had seven years at that point and on WCF appearance in 1995. (There wasn't anything quite like that on the 75 - I think the closest was Giannis, who was starting his ninth season and already had a ring when that list was announced.)
Amares
Pro Prospect
Posts: 810
And1: 408
Joined: Aug 29, 2011

Re: NBA 75 vs 2023 RealGM 75 (of 100) 

Post#12 » by Amares » Sun Feb 25, 2024 9:09 am

OldSchoolNoBull wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:
eminence wrote:Big differences are the NBA being unwilling to remove older players. Which makes it much much harder for the younger guys to get on, there's a few older guys I might keep on a personal top 75, but agree with the general direction of the boards list.

I do think the board tends to move up current MVP type guys a bit faster than I'd like, but the finished career guys I don't have any major issues with the boards era balance.


Re: forced inclusion of entire previous list. Yup, that's the big sin. I'm still stunned they let that happen given that's not how previous updates to the NBA & WNBA's lists along these lines go. I feel like it's likely nobody told the voters to do this, but because the old voters were biased and the young voters they chose weren't qualified by actual expertise, this became the easy way out.


It wouldn't surprise me if the NBA did want the whole previous list to carry over - not for any ideological or basketball reasons, but public relations reasons. A majority of those older guys are still alive, and the ones that aren't, their families are probably still around and their teammates might be too. It's a very public list and if some older players who were on the 50 don't make the 75, like Maravich or Monroe or whoever, then it becomes a story. People can get offended. It's one thing to not make a list, it's another to be removed. So it wouldn't surprise me at all if the powers that be in the NBA just decided it wasn't worth the potential headaches.

But that's just pure speculation on my part.



Feel the same. The decision to keep all Top 50 from 1997 on the modern list was either a lazy approach just to add additional names without creating a reasonable list from scratch, or more like a public relations move. Also, the voting panel was mostly old guys with biases or some ex-players/people with no credibility when creating greatness rankings. The result is there's an amount of players in the top 75 which shouldn't be top 100 or even close. Comparing both lists It's very clear NBA's list is overestimating old players to huge degree.
Owly
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,616
And1: 3,133
Joined: Mar 12, 2010

Re: NBA 75 vs 2023 RealGM 75 (of 100) 

Post#13 » by Owly » Sun Feb 25, 2024 11:20 am

AEnigma wrote:On their list, the four names I think would fit best on our list are Rodman, Iverson, Cousy, and Worthy.

On our list, the most “replaceable” to me are Embiid, Jones, maybe one of the Wallaces or the cousins.

Gilmore’s exclusion makes sense with the framework.
Bing over Lanier never made sense and has always been indefensible.

Iverson being the only different player on their list to be drafted after 1986 helps explain some of the other more baffling exclusions like Pau or Dwight or the entirety of the 2003-08 Pistons core.

So I would assume that is based on the idea that it's an NBA list and so considers NBA only, which makes sense, though I don't know if the framework were made explicit off the top of my head ... (I suspect the lists/teams weren't always as such - Erving gets into the 12 man 35th anniversary team decided in 1980 with a small body of NBA work, mostly not his most productive NBA spell - Davies made the 25 team which could suggest NBL included).

The thing is, if one is implicitly highlighting that ... doesn't that assumption make Billy Cunningham's inclusion more odd? I guess he got some NBA award recognition (and a ring) and he doesn't lose that many minutes (but does miss his MVP) ... still he's not in for "us" and now he's on 22406 RS minutes for his NBA career (for 60s and 70s).
Owly
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,616
And1: 3,133
Joined: Mar 12, 2010

Re: NBA 75 vs 2023 RealGM 75 (of 100) 

Post#14 » by Owly » Sun Feb 25, 2024 11:27 am

OldSchoolNoBull wrote:It wouldn't surprise me if the NBA did want the whole previous list to carry over - not for any ideological or basketball reasons, but public relations reasons. A majority of those older guys are still alive, and the ones that aren't, their families are probably still around and their teammates might be too. It's a very public list and if some older players who were on the 50 don't make the 75, like Maravich or Monroe or whoever, then it becomes a story. People can get offended. It's one thing to not make a list, it's another to be removed. So it wouldn't surprise me at all if the powers that be in the NBA just decided it wasn't worth the potential headaches.

Acknowledging that you seem to be hypothesizing about the process of others rather than saying that it is right ...

So, for me, the bolded would be an error in framing. This isn't the 50 list. They aren't "removed" from the 50 list. They don't happen to be included on the new list.

And there's always people that complain. Some publications will respond with critiques or their own list. Some will ask questions to guys they thought were "snubbed" and "Oh Dominique feels he should be on the 50" or "McAdoo says look at the MVP list, I should be on the 50". If you're drawing a line there will always be fringe case and some players perceived as "snubs".

That doesn't mean it might not be "safer" or perceived as such. Would someone compare the lists ... almost certainly.

But the whole idea that well if they're alive (or the converse) seems a silly thing to factor into a greatest players list. And I don't think anyone's booted off anything.

This will trend towards an era bias and tend to be self-perpetuating if the "rule" continues. Fwiw if had been in play on all such lists Bob Davies and Joe Fulks would arguably be somewhat strong locks (NBA Silver Anniversary Team had only 12 spots for 25 years ... now active players weren't eligible so if you want to say functionally it was for the first 20 years or 17.5 years or 15 years [certainly Chamberlain, Robertson, West and Baylor would have been locks] ... they could argue that they are in on a less than one player per year list, how can you boot them now ... now one could argue player pool and expansion ... but now you're arguing with a legend[/their relatives] in public if this real and it's a PR thing if that's the framework.
OhayoKD
Head Coach
Posts: 6,042
And1: 3,932
Joined: Jun 22, 2022

Re: NBA 75 vs 2023 RealGM 75 (of 100) 

Post#15 » by OhayoKD » Sun Feb 25, 2024 11:39 am

Amares wrote:
OldSchoolNoBull wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:
Re: forced inclusion of entire previous list. Yup, that's the big sin. I'm still stunned they let that happen given that's not how previous updates to the NBA & WNBA's lists along these lines go. I feel like it's likely nobody told the voters to do this, but because the old voters were biased and the young voters they chose weren't qualified by actual expertise, this became the easy way out.


It wouldn't surprise me if the NBA did want the whole previous list to carry over - not for any ideological or basketball reasons, but public relations reasons. A majority of those older guys are still alive, and the ones that aren't, their families are probably still around and their teammates might be too. It's a very public list and if some older players who were on the 50 don't make the 75, like Maravich or Monroe or whoever, then it becomes a story. People can get offended. It's one thing to not make a list, it's another to be removed. So it wouldn't surprise me at all if the powers that be in the NBA just decided it wasn't worth the potential headaches.

But that's just pure speculation on my part.



Feel the same. The decision to keep all Top 50 from 1997 on the modern list was either a lazy approach just to add additional names without creating a reasonable list from scratch, or more like a public relations move. Also, the voting panel was mostly old guys with biases or some ex-players/people with no credibility when creating greatness rankings. The result is there's an amount of players in the top 75 which shouldn't be top 100 or even close. Comparing both lists It's very clear NBA's list is overestimating old players to huge degree.

Considering the media landscape of the last few decades has effectively centered around older fans/players gaslighting newer fans/players to convince them their generation is inferior, it's not particularly surprising.
70sFan
RealGM
Posts: 29,797
And1: 25,128
Joined: Aug 11, 2015
 

Re: NBA 75 vs 2023 RealGM 75 (of 100) 

Post#16 » by 70sFan » Sun Feb 25, 2024 11:48 am

OhayoKD wrote:
Amares wrote:
OldSchoolNoBull wrote:
It wouldn't surprise me if the NBA did want the whole previous list to carry over - not for any ideological or basketball reasons, but public relations reasons. A majority of those older guys are still alive, and the ones that aren't, their families are probably still around and their teammates might be too. It's a very public list and if some older players who were on the 50 don't make the 75, like Maravich or Monroe or whoever, then it becomes a story. People can get offended. It's one thing to not make a list, it's another to be removed. So it wouldn't surprise me at all if the powers that be in the NBA just decided it wasn't worth the potential headaches.

But that's just pure speculation on my part.



Feel the same. The decision to keep all Top 50 from 1997 on the modern list was either a lazy approach just to add additional names without creating a reasonable list from scratch, or more like a public relations move. Also, the voting panel was mostly old guys with biases or some ex-players/people with no credibility when creating greatness rankings. The result is there's an amount of players in the top 75 which shouldn't be top 100 or even close. Comparing both lists It's very clear NBA's list is overestimating old players to huge degree.

Considering the media landscape of the last few decades has effectively centered around older fans/players gaslighting newer fans/players to convince them their generation is inferior, it's not particularly surprising.

This is funny to read, media do nothing to center around older generations.
70sFan
RealGM
Posts: 29,797
And1: 25,128
Joined: Aug 11, 2015
 

Re: NBA 75 vs 2023 RealGM 75 (of 100) 

Post#17 » by 70sFan » Sun Feb 25, 2024 1:53 pm

Players I'd probably put in my top 75 from the league list:

Bob Cousy (not sure)
Sam Jones

Players I'd probably put in my top 75 from PC Board list:

Jimmy Butler
Pau Gasol
Paul George
Artis Gilmore
Manu Ginobili
Draymond Green (not sure)
Dwight Howard
Nikola Jokic
Bob Lanier
Alonzo Mourning
Dikembe Mutombo
Rasheed Wallace

Turns out that PC Board list is closer to mine.
Djoker
Starter
Posts: 2,146
And1: 1,877
Joined: Sep 12, 2015
 

Re: NBA 75 vs 2023 RealGM 75 (of 100) 

Post#18 » by Djoker » Sun Feb 25, 2024 7:06 pm

70sFan wrote:Players I'd probably put in my top 75 from the league list:

Bob Cousy (not sure)
Sam Jones

Players I'd probably put in my top 75 from PC Board list:

Jimmy Butler
Pau Gasol
Paul George
Artis Gilmore
Manu Ginobili
Draymond Green (not sure)
Dwight Howard
Nikola Jokic
Bob Lanier
Alonzo Mourning
Dikembe Mutombo
Rasheed Wallace

Turns out that PC Board list is closer to mine.


I'm surprised you wouldn't have McAdoo and Walton from the NBA list.

Anyways worth noting that a couple of years passed since NBA 75 so some names like Embiid, Jokic and Butler have a much better case now. NBA 75 list done in 2024 would probably include those three guys. And even Draymond won another title since then so maybe him too.

Either way, I think both lists are reasonable. The PC Board list has a bit of a modern bias.
Doctor MJ
Senior Mod
Senior Mod
Posts: 53,190
And1: 22,201
Joined: Mar 10, 2005
Location: Cali
     

Re: NBA 75 vs 2023 RealGM 75 (of 100) 

Post#19 » by Doctor MJ » Sun Feb 25, 2024 7:28 pm

OldSchoolNoBull wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:
eminence wrote:Big differences are the NBA being unwilling to remove older players. Which makes it much much harder for the younger guys to get on, there's a few older guys I might keep on a personal top 75, but agree with the general direction of the boards list.

I do think the board tends to move up current MVP type guys a bit faster than I'd like, but the finished career guys I don't have any major issues with the boards era balance.


Re: forced inclusion of entire previous list. Yup, that's the big sin. I'm still stunned they let that happen given that's not how previous updates to the NBA & WNBA's lists along these lines go. I feel like it's likely nobody told the voters to do this, but because the old voters were biased and the young voters they chose weren't qualified by actual expertise, this became the easy way out.


It wouldn't surprise me if the NBA did want the whole previous list to carry over - not for any ideological or basketball reasons, but public relations reasons. A majority of those older guys are still alive, and the ones that aren't, their families are probably still around and their teammates might be too. It's a very public list and if some older players who were on the 50 don't make the 75, like Maravich or Monroe or whoever, then it becomes a story. People can get offended. It's one thing to not make a list, it's another to be removed. So it wouldn't surprise me at all if the powers that be in the NBA just decided it wasn't worth the potential headaches.

But that's just pure speculation on my part.


I think the fact that they were seen as "already on the list" was part of the problem, but I think it's important to recognize that the NBA 75 is just another increment of the type of list the NBA has been doing for forever, and in the past they had no such reluctance. Guys like Bob Davies & Joe Fulks made previous lists, for example.

There's an extra weirdness here for me because honestly I think if there was any pull to keep legacy guys on the list, Davies should have been carried through indefinitely. The idea that there was ever a time when Dave Bing was more worthy than Davies just seems silly to me.

Fulks of course on the other is the type of guy who represents a clear decision path. If it's about who is best at basketball, Fulks deserves no mention, because he really couldn't even compete within his own era once the big boys from the NBL joined the league. If it's about the NBA celebrating its own history from the start, then Fulks should be mentioned.

OldSchoolNoBull wrote:
Re: current MVP guys move up too fast on RealGM. I definitely think this happens sometimes, and it speaks to a certain assumption that a guy's prime status won't age poorly that I don't necessarily object to. While it makes sense to try to be conservative in your assessment to avoid having a guy awkwardly move back down your list, I'm okay with this happening on my personal lists because it just means I changed my assessment about the guy.

Dwight Howard's the guy I think of here. I memory serves I wasn't actually a Top 100 champion for him in any project, but when he made his debut - and to this day peak - in 2011 at #39, I didn't think that was crazy high for him, because at the time I thought more highly of what could be built around him. I did not know at the time that early weirdness in his relationship with the Orlando Magic would bloom into a bizarre situation where he'd bounce from team to team insisting that he wanted to play as a volume post-scorer at a time when NBA teams were realizing that almost no one should be a volume post-scorer. I did not know, in other words, that anything built around Howard was destined to fall apart.

Depending on one's philosophy, one might believe none of this relevant, but I think the reality is that for most, even those who don't want to be swayed by stuff like this probably are.

So yeah, there's a non-zero probability that we'll eventually see how high we placed Giannis or Jokic and cringe at how much we overrated them, but I think documenting the phenomenon behind the cringe is worthwhile.


Yeah, I've been fairly vocal about my feelings about certain active players being pushed too early. I've pointed to examples from past lists too, like when LeBron made the 2006 list despite only being in the league for three years and having won nothing at that point.

But to be fair, if you look at the NBA's 50 at 50, which was announced in 1996, they voted Shaq in, who had only played four years at that point and - though he'd been to the 1995 Finals and 1996 ECF - hadn't won anything; likewise they voted David Robinson in, who had seven years at that point and on WCF appearance in 1995. (There wasn't anything quite like that on the 75 - I think the closest was Giannis, who was starting his ninth season and already had a ring when that list was announced.)


I do think Wade & LeBron making it in 2006 represents a bit of an obsolete viewpoint for this group back when it was more influenced by the NBA 50. The fact that Shaq made the 50 despite not really achieving much to that point spoke to a bit more of a "most outstanding" focus, and in 2006, Wade & LeBron felt outstanding.

I don't think a player analogous to 3-year LeBron would make the 100 today.

On the other hand, we really haven't seen a 3-year player like Wade since Wade, and so I'd stay he still makes the 100 but does so at a lower rank.
Getting ready for the RealGM 100 on the PC Board

Come join the WNBA Board if you're a fan!
70sFan
RealGM
Posts: 29,797
And1: 25,128
Joined: Aug 11, 2015
 

Re: NBA 75 vs 2023 RealGM 75 (of 100) 

Post#20 » by 70sFan » Sun Feb 25, 2024 8:16 pm

Djoker wrote:
70sFan wrote:Players I'd probably put in my top 75 from the league list:

Bob Cousy (not sure)
Sam Jones

Players I'd probably put in my top 75 from PC Board list:

Jimmy Butler
Pau Gasol
Paul George
Artis Gilmore
Manu Ginobili
Draymond Green (not sure)
Dwight Howard
Nikola Jokic
Bob Lanier
Alonzo Mourning
Dikembe Mutombo
Rasheed Wallace

Turns out that PC Board list is closer to mine.


I'm surprised you wouldn't have McAdoo and Walton from the NBA list.

Anyways worth noting that a couple of years passed since NBA 75 so some names like Embiid, Jokic and Butler have a much better case now. NBA 75 list done in 2024 would probably include those three guys. And even Draymond won another title since then so maybe him too.

Either way, I think both lists are reasonable. The PC Board list has a bit of a modern bias.

McAdoo is close and he'd make my top 100. Walton is a big no, I rank players based on career value.

Return to Player Comparisons