NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2023-24 (Part 4: MVP Thread's Revenge)

[CobraCommander]

Luka making a push for the mvp

Not from 8th in the west- playing great but too many other guys are playing better and winning. Right now I think the consensus he 4th

https://www.nba.com/news/kia-mvp-ladder-updates-2023-24

[dygaction]

Yeah it will take that - but I don’t see how any votes against Jokic considering he is the reining champ and the best player on earth by a mile -

The number two player (Giannis) and the number 3 player (Embiid) are either hurt or while great not as great as jokic.

Sga is having a great year but Jokic having a great decade

It is a season award, Embiid hurt or Giannis not having as a great season makes SGA number two or potentially number 1, not Giannis.
If Jordan or LeBron not loading MVPs year after year, there is reasonable case for SGA. There are not necessarily stans for SGA, but plenty of voters worrying about Joran or LeBron, or other top 10 ATGs legacy. Like Celtics homers would rather Jokic not getting his 3rd MVP to threaten Bird...

I still think Lebron and Jordan definitely should have more MVPs.

The argument against more MVPs for Lebron is guys actually had better years...that’s not the case with SGA vs Jokic

If you compare adv and counting stats, 2011 mvp
Rose: PER23.5/.208ws/48/6.8BPM; 25.0p/4.1r/7.7a/1.0s
LeBron: 27.3/.244ws/48/8.1BPM; 26.7p/7.5r/7.0a/1.6s

Bulls #1 and Heat #2. SGA and Jokic have MUCH closer in adv and counting stats

[CobraCommander]

It is a season award, Embiid hurt or Giannis not having as a great season makes SGA number two or potentially number 1, not Giannis.
If Jordan or LeBron not loading MVPs year after year, there is reasonable case for SGA. There are not necessarily stans for SGA, but plenty of voters worrying about Joran or LeBron, or other top 10 ATGs legacy. Like Celtics homers would rather Jokic not getting his 3rd MVP to threaten Bird...

I still think Lebron and Jordan definitely should have more MVPs.

The argument against more MVPs for Lebron is guys actually had better years...that’s not the case with SGA vs Jokic

If you compare adv and counting stats, 2011 mvp
Rose: PER23.5/.208ws/48/6.8BPM; 25.0p/4.1r/7.7a/1.0s
LeBron: 27.3/.244ws/48/8.1BPM; 26.7p/7.5r/7.0a/1.6s

Bulls #1 and Heat #2. SGA and Jokic have MUCH closer in adv and counting stats

Good point....that’s a decent comparison

[ty 4191]

[LessEyeTest]

I wonder how rough Jokic's decline will be as he ages... looking at the video from NBA.com that shows his early years vs now, it's a night and day difference in quickness and athleticism as a whole. Although Jokic might have better stamina now...

He's put on significant weight (and strength) but is also dealing with back injuries...

Watch on YouTube

[zero rings]

It is a season award, Embiid hurt or Giannis not having as a great season makes SGA number two or potentially number 1, not Giannis.
If Jordan or LeBron not loading MVPs year after year, there is reasonable case for SGA. There are not necessarily stans for SGA, but plenty of voters worrying about Joran or LeBron, or other top 10 ATGs legacy. Like Celtics homers would rather Jokic not getting his 3rd MVP to threaten Bird...

I still think Lebron and Jordan definitely should have more MVPs.

The argument against more MVPs for Lebron is guys actually had better years...that’s not the case with SGA vs Jokic

If you compare adv and counting stats, 2011 mvp
Rose: PER23.5/.208ws/48/6.8BPM; 25.0p/4.1r/7.7a/1.0s
LeBron: 27.3/.244ws/48/8.1BPM; 26.7p/7.5r/7.0a/1.6s

Bulls #1 and Heat #2. SGA and Jokic have MUCH closer in adv and counting stats

Lebron had an all-time bad narrative that season. People hated him for The Decision, and both he and the Heat were disappointing relative to expectations. His numbers were down across the board and the Heat fell way short of the 70+ wins people expected.

Jokic doesn’t have any of those things working against him. His numbers are as good as ever, and people are looking to validate him coming off the championship.

If the Thunder finish 4-5 games up on the Nuggets, SGA will probably win it. But if it’s just 1 or 2 games, most voters will default to the guy they feel is the best player in the game.

[Doctor MJ]

It is a season award, Embiid hurt or Giannis not having as a great season makes SGA number two or potentially number 1, not Giannis.
If Jordan or LeBron not loading MVPs year after year, there is reasonable case for SGA. There are not necessarily stans for SGA, but plenty of voters worrying about Joran or LeBron, or other top 10 ATGs legacy. Like Celtics homers would rather Jokic not getting his 3rd MVP to threaten Bird...

I still think Lebron and Jordan definitely should have more MVPs.

The argument against more MVPs for Lebron is guys actually had better years...that’s not the case with SGA vs Jokic

If you compare adv and counting stats, 2011 mvp
Rose: PER23.5/.208ws/48/6.8BPM; 25.0p/4.1r/7.7a/1.0s
LeBron: 27.3/.244ws/48/8.1BPM; 26.7p/7.5r/7.0a/1.6s

Bulls #1 and Heat #2. SGA and Jokic have MUCH closer in adv and counting stats

So just on that Rose season:

It was a super-weird season but it wasn't random LeBron hate that held him back. There were several things going on:

1. The Heat started off quite disappointing compared to the hype. They were supposed to be a GOAT team, instead they looked worse than LeBron's Cavs.

2. This despite the fact that Wade looked like Wade, and while Bosh got mocked for playing a lower primacy role, he did it well.

3. And all of this happening after LeBron's last games with Cleveland made him look like a choker/quitter/etc and as such there was no consensus that LeBron was actually the clear cut best player in the world at this time.

The team would rally of course by season's end, but not to such degree that it shut down the arguments for other candidates.

You can certainly still argue that LeBron deserved it more than the other candidates, who were themselves quite flawed, but when people talk about '10-11 as if LeBron's issues were simply about "narrative", it sounds like people were finding excuses not to continue to choose the best player in the world every year, when in reality LeBron was a young player with some playoff struggles who was struggling to mesh with the team he chose because he chose it not based on fit but based on fellow star power.

[EmpireFalls]

Dwight Howard is the real snub for the 2010-11 MVP imo.

[Doctor MJ]

Dwight Howard is the real snub for the 2010-11 MVP imo.

Howard was my choice at that time, but he's a flawed candidate too.

From a +/- impact perspective he looks like an MVP...but the team got worse than in previous years because the team traded away depth (Gortat in particular) with a desperate hope that building better around Howard would make the team better...which the team did because Howard was already making noises that he was dissatisfied with the franchise despite them doing a pretty dang fantastic job of designing a scheme around him. We can now look back and see that there was literally nothing Orlando could have done to make Howard happy - he wanted both to win a championship and be a volume scorer from the post, and these two things could not happen together.

In the end I think it goes into the realm of philosophy:

If you see 'value' as what impact you can have on your current roster, I think Howard was the MVP.
If you see 'value' as a broader evaluation of your franchise player and the effect he's having on your franchise, I don't think he was.

For LeBron you might say it's the opposite.

[CobraCommander]

For the unintiated - a negative number means you gotta pay more than 1 dollar to win 1 dollar… barring injury it’s Jokic -

[CobraCommander]

I wonder how rough Jokic's decline will be as he ages... looking at the video from NBA.com that shows his early years vs now, it's a night and day difference in quickness and athleticism as a whole. Although Jokic might have better stamina now...

He's put on significant weight (and strength) but is also dealing with back injuries...

Watch on YouTube

You could say this for everyone not named LeBron James.

Jokic still gonna be big and smart and can shoot from everywhere -

I think it bodes well that he doesn’t have to score to be effective. If Jokic does everything at a lower level he would still be a top 10 player lol

[Special_Puppy]

For the unintiated - a negative number means you gotta pay more than 1 dollar to win 1 dollar… barring injury it’s Jokic -

Odds with the Vig removed are
Jokic= 52%
SGA = 27%
Luka= 11%
Giannis = 6%
Tatum = 2%
Kawhi = 0.9%
Brunson = 0.5%
Edwards = 0.3%
Mitchell = 0.4%
Curry = 0.3%

Jokic is the favorite over the field, but his lead isn't super secure. SGA is very close to him

[Oscar9992]

Tatum is favoured by NBA?

[Woodsanity]

Brunson PER: 22.1, BPM: 5.3
Tatum PER: 22.2, BPM: 5.2

Their stats are near identical. The only difference is supporting cast....

[dygaction]

Luka making a push for the mvp

Not from 8th in the west- playing great but too many other guys are playing better and winning. Right now I think the consensus he 4th

https://www.nba.com/news/kia-mvp-ladder-updates-2023-24

lol at "too many" and there is no concensus if you use one blog... Majority sites have Luka ahead of Giannis most of the season including now, not particularly after a Feb when Bucks went 5w-5l whereas Mavs were 7w-2l. I am ok with him above luka actually but you have been always campaigning him above SGA, which has no reasonable base whatso ever.

[iggymcfrack]

For the unintiated - a negative number means you gotta pay more than 1 dollar to win 1 dollar… barring injury it’s Jokic -

Jokic was a much bigger favorite before the Perk noise started last year. If the Thunder get the 1 seed, I think SGA still has a very good shot. I think it’s fair to say that barring injury, it’s SGA or Jokic though.

[dygaction]

Tatum will be in top 3 if not getting it at the end, with recent media strong push and Celtics winning. ESPN and sports media has been wanting to have a US player to be in the discussion. Embiid becomes eligible for Team USA but got injured.

[MyTake_1]

What Luka is doing is crazy, he is the only one who can upset Jokic for MVP, it is just remarkable what he can do.

[5IVE5TAR5]

Another Luka MVP game tonight. What more can you ask for. It's him or Jokic.

[dygaction]

Another Luka MVP game tonight. What more can you ask for. It's him or Jokic.

but his chance is only getting smaller... GSW and LAL are red hot coming from behind, 7w-3l is the worst for 8-10 seeds now