Official Summer 2024 Magic Free Agency and Trade Ideas Thread 3.0

[eyriq]

Suggs may not have it offensively every night, but he brings it defensively every night.

Franz is a better player who takes some games off.

I would put Suggs and Franz at the same value, but I have always had Suggs at a very high value.

Franz is arguably our best player. Defensive anchor (his defense is underrated), and a better second option than Paolo is a first option.

I'm surprised you think he takes nights off. I've never thought his poor performances were due to effort.

[fendilim]

I’d have Suggs as King’s ransom for now. But have to move him down after a few years, at the rate he plays, that body gonna take a toll, imo.

But the guy is valuable. His low offensive points isn’t that attractive, but he makes up for it with his elite defensive skill and his motor changes the game, imo

[byeganyo]

Franz had a great sophomore year, he was legitimately in consideration for the best player in his class, but his 3rd year has been timid compared to other players, Sengun and Barnes for instance have made a considerable jump in quality. The road is long of course, but he should find a new level in the summer.

[pepe1991]

Suggs this year, his "incredible leap year" is 12 ppg, with a nicely increased 39% from 3. But that isnt Kings Ransom type of stats. as a shooting guard, he is ranked #111. Grayson Allen who many people want here is putting up more ppg as the 3rd-4th option in Phoenix. Im not saying make a trade
just to get rid of him, and I did say that I had him higher than Cole and WCJ. But he isnt as valuable to me as Franz yet.

Suggs shooting improved. But it's pretty much spot up shooting, mostly off catch, while being wide open.

He shoots 36% on wide open jumpshot ( make 61% of all his made 3s) and 42% on open 3s ( make 32%) of all his 3s.
Basically, he is only makes 3s when he is very open. Matter of fact, whole season long he only made 7 contested threes.


Among 109 mades, 81 were made without any dribble taken. (74%). Additional 12 with 1 or 2 dribbles.

This isn't bad thing, you want players who don't overcomplicate things, but having two players with same skillset, who aren't doing much off ball , nor are potent scorers nor are advanced playmakers, is simply overkill.

But isn't that part of the plan? Like if Black or Suggs or anyone is "open" then they shoot. If they aren't open, then in theory Paolo or Franz are likely able to get a favorable high percentage shot.

Like I am one of "the guys" saying lacking a 3rd option on offense is costing us a lot of games. Yet having this duplicity in skill set helps and doesn't hurt.

It's still all theory. In playoffs those players won't see that many wide open looks, and what happends to our spacing if they get covered?

This is why making playoffs this year is so important. We need that test to see how we stack agianst defense that gameplans against our gameplan. Where in regular season you meet bunch of random teams with portion of players skipping games, including your own ones.

And guard play is very important. You can really count on finger of your one hand all nba teams that won a title without star guards. Even somebody as good as Lebron couldn't won a title until he matched himself with D Wade, later Kyrie.

[JoshuaPotter]

Suggs shooting improved. But it's pretty much spot up shooting, mostly off catch, while being wide open.

He shoots 36% on wide open jumpshot ( make 61% of all his made 3s) and 42% on open 3s ( make 32%) of all his 3s.
Basically, he is only makes 3s when he is very open. Matter of fact, whole season long he only made 7 contested threes.


Among 109 mades, 81 were made without any dribble taken. (74%). Additional 12 with 1 or 2 dribbles.

This isn't bad thing, you want players who don't overcomplicate things, but having two players with same skillset, who aren't doing much off ball , nor are potent scorers nor are advanced playmakers, is simply overkill.

But isn't that part of the plan? Like if Black or Suggs or anyone is "open" then they shoot. If they aren't open, then in theory Paolo or Franz are likely able to get a favorable high percentage shot.

Like I am one of "the guys" saying lacking a 3rd option on offense is costing us a lot of games. Yet having this duplicity in skill set helps and doesn't hurt.

It's still all theory. In playoffs those players won't see that many wide open looks, and what happends to our spacing if they get covered?

This is why making playoffs this year is so important. We need that test to see how we stack agianst defense that gameplans against our gameplan. Where in regular season you meet bunch of random teams with portion of players skipping games, including your own ones.

And guard play is very important. You can really count on finger of your one hand all nba teams that won a title without star guards. Even somebody as good as Lebron couldn't won a title until he matched himself with D Wade, later Kyrie.

No I totally agree that it is theory. Again, unless Paolo hits a wall against an amazing 1 on 1 defense the kid is straight up almost unstoppable down there.

But that is the point isn't it. Defenses will be improved. We will get to see by how much and if Black / Suggs will be left wide open or respected.

[bigdogdylan5]

Suggs may not have it offensively every night, but he brings it defensively every night.

Franz is a better player who takes some games off.

Spicy

He does not “take games off”. That is flat out insane. He has bad games which is not unexpected as the nba is **** hard and he is still in the infancy of his nba career. Just watch him, he really cares and busts his ass. Just lunacy that having bad games = must not be trying. This is what I am talking about with some posters…

[AaronB]

Suggs may not have it offensively every night, but he brings it defensively every night.

Franz is a better player who takes some games off.

Spicy

He does not “take games off”. That is flat out insane. He has bad games which is not unexpected as the nba is **** hard and he is still in the infancy of his nba career. Just watch him, he really cares and busts his ass. Just lunacy that having bad games = must not be trying. This is what I am talking about with some posters…

Nope.

If Franz had his brother's consistent high-level effort, he would be an all-star today.

He is still better than most players effort, but it does not compare to Moe's, Suggs or JI in terms of consistent effort.

Franz just has much more talent offensively than them.

[AaronB]

Franz had a great sophomore year, he was legitimately in consideration for the best player in his class, but his 3rd year has been timid compared to other players, Sengun and Barnes for instance have made a considerable jump in quality. The road is long of course, but he should find a new level in the summer.

We are seeing the same thing and I think most people see it.

You are calling it being timid; I am calling it an inconsistency in intense effort.

[bigdogdylan5]

Spicy

He does not “take games off”. That is flat out insane. He has bad games which is not unexpected as the nba is **** hard and he is still in the infancy of his nba career. Just watch him, he really cares and busts his ass. Just lunacy that having bad games = must not be trying. This is what I am talking about with some posters…

Nope.

If Franz had his brother's consistent high-level effort, he would be an all-star today.

He is still better than most players effort, but it does not compare to Moe's, Suggs or JI in terms of consistent effort.

Franz just has much more talent offensively than them.

Ok well I have a totally different view. I think Franz effort on defense is where it needs to be. Maybe we could get a consensus from other people unless this brand new revolutionary metric was invented to judge a players effort lol.

For someone who doesn’t give effort it’s pretty impressive he leads the team in defensive win shares and has a better defensive rating then Goga, Mo (even though he plays more against second units), Suggs, Banchero, and WCJ

[Knightro]

Franz had a great sophomore year, he was legitimately in consideration for the best player in his class, but his 3rd year has been timid compared to other players, Sengun and Barnes for instance have made a considerable jump in quality. The road is long of course, but he should find a new level in the summer.

I don't agree with this at all. Sengun and Barnes are stuffing the box scores more than Franz, but their impact on winning basketball games has been much lower than Franz's.

The only thing different from last year to this year for Franz is that his 3PT shooting is worse (36% down to 31%). Otherwise, he's basically up across the board.

PTS is up
2PT% is up
REB is up
AST is up
STL is up
BLK is up
TOV are down

Think about that. Franz is using more possessions than ever before (23% to 26% jump in USG%), yet his assists have gone up and his turnovers have gone down. Sengun and Barnes have both seen their turnovers increase as they've taken on bigger roles offensively.

He's seen tangible improvement in his shooting percentages from floater/runner/short hook range 46% from 3-10 FT (42% last year), 46% from 10-16 FT (41% last year).

His BPM is up. His WS/48 are up. VORP is up.

Franz Wagner is the 28th best player in the league according to EPM. Ahead of Sengun (44th) and well ahead of Barnes (89th).

He's a really good basketball player who is progressing nicely. I think collectively we've gotten lost in the sauce a little bit because of his struggles with the three point shot.

[AaronB]

He does not “take games off”. That is flat out insane. He has bad games which is not unexpected as the nba is **** hard and he is still in the infancy of his nba career. Just watch him, he really cares and busts his ass. Just lunacy that having bad games = must not be trying. This is what I am talking about with some posters…

Nope.

If Franz had his brother's consistent high-level effort, he would be an all-star today.

He is still better than most players effort, but it does not compare to Moe's, Suggs or JI in terms of consistent effort.

Franz just has much more talent offensively than them.

Ok well I have a totally different view. I think Franz effort on defense is where it needs to be. Maybe we could get a consensus from other people unless this brand new revolutionary metric was invented to judge a players effort lol.

For someone who doesn’t give effort it’s pretty impressive he leads the team in defensive win shares and has a better defensive rating then Goga, Mo (even though he plays more against second units), Suggs, Banchero, and WCJ

Where did I say "he does not give effort"?

Exactly nowhere did I say that. I said his consistency of effort is not on par with JI, Moe or Suggs.

This is obvious to the most casual observer.

There is an ancient Chinese proverb that says Seek first to understand before trying to be understood.

I recommend that you listen to that advice.

[pepe1991]

Franz had a great sophomore year, he was legitimately in consideration for the best player in his class, but his 3rd year has been timid compared to other players, Sengun and Barnes for instance have made a considerable jump in quality. The road is long of course, but he should find a new level in the summer.

I don't agree with this at all. Sengun and Barnes are stuffing the box scores more than Franz, but their impact on winning basketball games has been much lower than Franz's.

The only thing different from last year to this year for Franz is that his 3PT shooting is worse (36% down to 31%). Otherwise, he's basically up across the board.

PTS is up
2PT% is up
REB is up
AST is up
STL is up
BLK is up
TOV are down

Think about that. Franz is using more possessions than ever before (23% to 26% jump in USG%), yet his assists have gone up and his turnovers have gone down. Sengun and Barnes have both seen their turnovers increase as they've taken on bigger roles offensively.

He's seen tangible improvement in his shooting percentages from floater/runner/short hook range 46% from 3-10 FT (42% last year), 46% from 10-16 FT (41% last year).

His BPM is up. His WS/48 are up. VORP is up.

Franz Wagner is the 28th best player in the league according to EPM. Ahead of Sengun (44th) and well ahead of Barnes (89th).

He's a really good basketball player who is progressing nicely. I think collectively we've gotten lost in the sauce a little bit because of his struggles with the three point shot.

With all that said, you would still anonymously, take Segun over him

I like Franz a lot, he is easly one of young players i enjoy watching the most, but when you watch Segun, and figure he should have been sophmore, not third year player due age ( younger than Chet, only 3 months older than Paolo) , and see his numbers, it's unreal.

Guy has upside that very few players have. Guys who are 7 foot tall normally don't have vision & passing chops Alp has, and by just looking at Jokic, it's not hard to understand how player with that unique skillset can transform whole team.
Franz is special player in his own right, but to me, feels more like complimentary peace next to your star player than actual star player. Where i have no dubt in my mind that in 2-3 years Alperen will be a star player. He already kind a is. If only he does not have to suffer through playing other failed Houston draft picks , but everybody needs to carry their own burden

[bigdogdylan5]

Nope.

If Franz had his brother's consistent high-level effort, he would be an all-star today.

He is still better than most players effort, but it does not compare to Moe's, Suggs or JI in terms of consistent effort.

Franz just has much more talent offensively than them.

Ok well I have a totally different view. I think Franz effort on defense is where it needs to be. Maybe we could get a consensus from other people unless this brand new revolutionary metric was invented to judge a players effort lol.

For someone who doesn’t give effort it’s pretty impressive he leads the team in defensive win shares and has a better defensive rating then Goga, Mo (even though he plays more against second units), Suggs, Banchero, and WCJ

Where did I say "he does not give effort"?

Exactly nowhere did I say that. I said his consistency of effort is not on par with JI, Moe or Suggs.

This is obvious to the most casual observer.

There is an ancient Chinese proverb that says Seek first to understand before trying to be understood.

I recommend that you listen to that advice.

I don’t know you so yea I am going to do my thing. You presented your argument with no corroborating evidence to say Franz (let me rephrase and listen to your perspective) has a lack of consistent effort. I disagree that’s fine I think your perspective is based on nothing except I feel this way. Maybe mine is too. Because we’re talking about something that can’t be measured. Maybe we can do an x ray and see if he has that dawg in him to decide who is right?

[KillMonger]

Franz had a great sophomore year, he was legitimately in consideration for the best player in his class, but his 3rd year has been timid compared to other players, Sengun and Barnes for instance have made a considerable jump in quality. The road is long of course, but he should find a new level in the summer.

I don't agree with this at all. Sengun and Barnes are stuffing the box scores more than Franz, but their impact on winning basketball games has been much lower than Franz's.

The only thing different from last year to this year for Franz is that his 3PT shooting is worse (36% down to 31%). Otherwise, he's basically up across the board.

PTS is up
2PT% is up
REB is up
AST is up
STL is up
BLK is up
TOV are down

Think about that. Franz is using more possessions than ever before (23% to 26% jump in USG%), yet his assists have gone up and his turnovers have gone down. Sengun and Barnes have both seen their turnovers increase as they've taken on bigger roles offensively.

He's seen tangible improvement in his shooting percentages from floater/runner/short hook range 46% from 3-10 FT (42% last year), 46% from 10-16 FT (41% last year).

His BPM is up. His WS/48 are up. VORP is up.

Franz Wagner is the 28th best player in the league according to EPM. Ahead of Sengun (44th) and well ahead of Barnes (89th).

He's a really good basketball player who is progressing nicely. I think collectively we've gotten lost in the sauce a little bit because of his struggles with the three point shot.

Leonardo Dicaprio pointing gif...... This post is it

Sent from my [Hands] using RealGM mobile app

[RookieStar]

no, i think its right. Suggs for the right deal. now the "right deal" is higher than what you might get for Cole or WCJ, but he hasnt done enough for me to place him too high yet.

What’s an example of right deal?

Example of the right deal is a King’s ransom.

Suggs needs his own tier and is closest to King’s ransom. Suggs is a good to great fit next to Franz and Paolo.

THIS.
Some example I would think is
Suggs + 2 FRP + filler = Booker
Suggs = Brunson ( if we are confident AB can take Suggs place already )
Siggs = Sharpe + picks

I knot these are homerish trade but he is in that categoru where he really is THAT important in our team.

Other teams when they face superstar guards like DON, Hali , Booker , Brunson, Trae etc don't have the luxury of confidently slowing them down like us when we send Sugg to sic on them

[RookieStar]

Suggs may not have it offensively every night, but he brings it defensively every night.

Franz is a better player who takes some games off.

Spicy

Well... I wouldn't say take games off but more of bitten by that " there are some games where you can't buy a bucket "

[RookieStar]

Suggs shooting improved. But it's pretty much spot up shooting, mostly off catch, while being wide open.

He shoots 36% on wide open jumpshot ( make 61% of all his made 3s) and 42% on open 3s ( make 32%) of all his 3s.
Basically, he is only makes 3s when he is very open. Matter of fact, whole season long he only made 7 contested threes.


Among 109 mades, 81 were made without any dribble taken. (74%). Additional 12 with 1 or 2 dribbles.

This isn't bad thing, you want players who don't overcomplicate things, but having two players with same skillset, who aren't doing much off ball , nor are potent scorers nor are advanced playmakers, is simply overkill.

But isn't that part of the plan? Like if Black or Suggs or anyone is "open" then they shoot. If they aren't open, then in theory Paolo or Franz are likely able to get a favorable high percentage shot.

Like I am one of "the guys" saying lacking a 3rd option on offense is costing us a lot of games. Yet having this duplicity in skill set helps and doesn't hurt.

It's still all theory. In playoffs those players won't see that many wide open looks, and what happends to our spacing if they get covered?

This is why making playoffs this year is so important. We need that test to see how we stack agianst defense that gameplans against our gameplan. Where in regular season you meet bunch of random teams with portion of players skipping games, including your own ones.

And guard play is very important. You can really count on finger of your one hand all nba teams that won a title without star guards. Even somebody as good as Lebron couldn't won a title until he matched himself with D Wade, later Kyrie.

I dunno... granted they are face of the NBA even after 50 years from now BUT Jokic won without a star guard( I cant consider Murray a star ) LBJ won with Caruso , GA won with only Jrue who isnt really a star... then past decade we had TD and Admiral winning with Derek Fisher???

Im not sure but as long as your main piece is handling the job as your guard, you can get away with it.

[tiderulz]

Franz had a great sophomore year, he was legitimately in consideration for the best player in his class, but his 3rd year has been timid compared to other players, Sengun and Barnes for instance have made a considerable jump in quality. The road is long of course, but he should find a new level in the summer.

I don't agree with this at all. Sengun and Barnes are stuffing the box scores more than Franz, but their impact on winning basketball games has been much lower than Franz's.

The only thing different from last year to this year for Franz is that his 3PT shooting is worse (36% down to 31%). Otherwise, he's basically up across the board.

PTS is up
2PT% is up
REB is up
AST is up
STL is up
BLK is up
TOV are down

Think about that. Franz is using more possessions than ever before (23% to 26% jump in USG%), yet his assists have gone up and his turnovers have gone down. Sengun and Barnes have both seen their turnovers increase as they've taken on bigger roles offensively.

He's seen tangible improvement in his shooting percentages from floater/runner/short hook range 46% from 3-10 FT (42% last year), 46% from 10-16 FT (41% last year).

His BPM is up. His WS/48 are up. VORP is up.

Franz Wagner is the 28th best player in the league according to EPM. Ahead of Sengun (44th) and well ahead of Barnes (89th).

He's a really good basketball player who is progressing nicely. I think collectively we've gotten lost in the sauce a little bit because of his struggles with the three point shot.

With all that said, you would still anonymously, take Segun over him

I like Franz a lot, he is easly one of young players i enjoy watching the most, but when you watch Segun, and figure he should have been sophmore, not third year player due age ( younger than Chet, only 3 months older than Paolo) , and see his numbers, it's unreal.

Guy has upside that very few players have. Guys who are 7 foot tall normally don't have vision & passing chops Alp has, and by just looking at Jokic, it's not hard to understand how player with that unique skillset can transform whole team.
Franz is special player in his own right, but to me, feels more like complimentary peace next to your star player than actual star player. Where i have no dubt in my mind that in 2-3 years Alperen will be a star player. He already kind a is. If only he does not have to suffer through playing other failed Houston draft picks , but everybody needs to carry their own burden

i just dont see it from Sengun. all offense no defense. reminds me of old school center.

[SOUL]

Barnes in terms of metrics is technically better. Not sure he's a #1 or not and he is weirdly touch and go some games, but he does a lot out there. Doesn't matter though since he was picked before us and we got Suggs + Wagner in the draft which is a great haul.

Sengun is very interesting but Houston is having problems with his inability to shoot threes and weak defense. Great offensive player but you need a specific skillset around him.

Ironically, Isaac would be the perfect complementary piece to him.

[byeganyo]

Franz had a great sophomore year, he was legitimately in consideration for the best player in his class, but his 3rd year has been timid compared to other players, Sengun and Barnes for instance have made a considerable jump in quality. The road is long of course, but he should find a new level in the summer.

I don't agree with this at all. Sengun and Barnes are stuffing the box scores more than Franz, but their impact on winning basketball games has been much lower than Franz's.

The only thing different from last year to this year for Franz is that his 3PT shooting is worse (36% down to 31%). Otherwise, he's basically up across the board.

PTS is up
2PT% is up
REB is up
AST is up
STL is up
BLK is up
TOV are down

Think about that. Franz is using more possessions than ever before (23% to 26% jump in USG%), yet his assists have gone up and his turnovers have gone down. Sengun and Barnes have both seen their turnovers increase as they've taken on bigger roles offensively.

He's seen tangible improvement in his shooting percentages from floater/runner/short hook range 46% from 3-10 FT (42% last year), 46% from 10-16 FT (41% last year).

His BPM is up. His WS/48 are up. VORP is up.

Franz Wagner is the 28th best player in the league according to EPM. Ahead of Sengun (44th) and well ahead of Barnes (89th).

He's a really good basketball player who is progressing nicely. I think collectively we've gotten lost in the sauce a little bit because of his struggles with the three point shot.

My claim is not they are better than him, but they have improved more than him in their 3rd season. I think thats pretty clear - no one was going to take Sengun over Franz at the start of the season.. and nowadays it is debatable at least.
And i realize most of his numbers are up, but they are marginally up... and his shooting is down. He is a better player now, but i expected more of a jump... see Suggs for instance.
Anyway i'm not giving up on Franz of course, he definitely is a very good player, but usually if you are not a star in this league by your 4th season, most likely you wont be...