PG: Good Game, Acceptable Loss

[bballsparkin]

He makes great cuts. Nice passes. But many posters just see the missed lay ups and bad offensive decisions. I think people are hard on him because he was the biggest name to came to Toronto in the Pascal trade.

People are hard on him because he tries to go iso all the time and throws up a terrible floater that usually misses.

He doesn't try to go iso all the time but when he does it has been ugly in general. Agreed. Looking at the stats the main problem is he's not hitting threes. He's shooting .257, while he shot .358 with the Nuggets last year. Hopefully he can lift that number up by the end of the season. Besides his three point shooting and iso bloopers he's not playing that badly. Should he improve upon his current struggles by the end of the year he might be a valuable chip this off-season or at the deadline. At worst he's a vet to have around in the time being. He can tell stories of winning with Jokic and set an example to the younger guys.

He has been disappointing but, in my mind, not nearly as bad as many are claiming.

[Scase]

Playing isn't the only way to develop Grady should be your example for that. What exactly does Ochai give you over the names you mentioned? remember the nba is a grown mans league nothing is given.

I never said it was the only way, it is one of many. Gradey has shown large improvements and should be getting more instances to showcase that, and see what starting lineup defences are like. As for Ochai, I'm not sold on him in the slightest, but the point is, if you are trading away a pick to get the player, maybe give him some burn.

You want to throw around silly little adages like it's a "grown mans league"?

Gary is putting up 11ppg on 27mpg, what is he earning exactly? He's had 4, 20+ point games since Dec 30th.
Brown is putting up 9ppg in 26mpg, what is he earning exactly? He's a -124 since joining the Raptors. Being a good POA defender doesn't mean squat if you are a massive negative.

This is supposed to be a developmental year, we know exactly what and who GTJ is, and we definitely know that Brown is playing the worst basketball of his career. So maybe we should be seeing what the other young players can do instead.

The only real argument for continuing to give Brown minutes despite being abysmal, is keeping his trade value as high as possible.

I have a sneaking suspicion that it is having the opposite effect

[YogurtProducer]

The only real argument for continuing to give Brown minutes despite being abysmal, is keeping his trade value as high as possible.

Well that, and the fact that he has a much larger sample of being a plus player than a negative one.

Add to that, he has not been nearly as bad as what people are trying to make it out to be. People pointing to +/- in such a small sample is stupid, and the claims that he constantly goes iso is also crazy (he is taking 10.9FGA per 36, and is taking 0.6 ISO shots per game).

I am not gonna judge a mid-season acquisition really ever. IQ didnt look that great for his first bit either. RJ has been an exception.

No, no he doesn't. He's been in the NBA for 6 seasons now and in 3 of those 6 seasons he's posted a positive VORP topping out at 1.2 one season with Brooklyn, which is adequate starter or solid reserve level. He also only has one season where he's posted a positive BPM of 0.7, that same season with Brooklyn where he posted the VORP of 1.2, otherwise he's posted a negative BPM every season.

About 100 players a year have a positive BPM. What a ridiculously high and (frankly) stupid bar to hold guys to.

Just think about that - 33% of the leagues starters have negatives BPM.

Not to mention, your numbers are wrong. He’s had positive VORP in 4/6 seasons, and this season is his first negative since he was a rookie.

So yeah… just entirely and utterly false to say he hasn’t had sufficient evidence of being a positive player.

But hey - 18 games is more important.

[Reeko]

Well that, and the fact that he has a much larger sample of being a plus player than a negative one.

Add to that, he has not been nearly as bad as what people are trying to make it out to be. People pointing to +/- in such a small sample is stupid, and the claims that he constantly goes iso is also crazy (he is taking 10.9FGA per 36, and is taking 0.6 ISO shots per game).

I am not gonna judge a mid-season acquisition really ever. IQ didnt look that great for his first bit either. RJ has been an exception.

No, no he doesn't. He's been in the NBA for 6 seasons now and in 3 of those 6 seasons he's posted a positive VORP topping out at 1.2 one season with Brooklyn, which is adequate starter or solid reserve level. He also only has one season where he's posted a positive BPM of 0.7, that same season with Brooklyn where he posted the VORP of 1.2, otherwise he's posted a negative BPM every season.

About 100 players a year have a positive BPM. What a ridiculously high and (frankly) stupid bar to hold guys to.

Just think about that - 33% of the leagues starters have negatives BPM.

Not to mention, your numbers are wrong. He’s had positive VORP in 4/6 seasons, and this season is his first negative since he was a rookie.

So yeah… just entirely and utterly false to say he hasn’t had sufficient evidence of being a positive player.

But hey - 18 games is more important.

Sorry I thought it was -0.3 in his second season. It was actually 0.3. I agree with you now. Bruce Brown is awesome, can’t believe we stole him from the Pacers lol. And it’s not just 18 games he’s been bad, it’s 51. The Pacers traded him for a reason. I think he’s a useful player in the right situation, which the Raptors are not.

[Los_29]

Bruce Brown is a nice complimentary piece to a good team. The guy averaged 27mpg in the playoffs last year for a team that won the championship. He’s been great in both Denver and Brooklyn. It’s not surprising that he would be less effective here and in Indiana. We are lacking top end talent and don’t have anyone that can elevate players like Jokic can.

[YogurtProducer]

No, no he doesn't. He's been in the NBA for 6 seasons now and in 3 of those 6 seasons he's posted a positive VORP topping out at 1.2 one season with Brooklyn, which is adequate starter or solid reserve level. He also only has one season where he's posted a positive BPM of 0.7, that same season with Brooklyn where he posted the VORP of 1.2, otherwise he's posted a negative BPM every season.

About 100 players a year have a positive BPM. What a ridiculously high and (frankly) stupid bar to hold guys to.

Just think about that - 33% of the leagues starters have negatives BPM.

Not to mention, your numbers are wrong. He’s had positive VORP in 4/6 seasons, and this season is his first negative since he was a rookie.

So yeah… just entirely and utterly false to say he hasn’t had sufficient evidence of being a positive player.

But hey - 18 games is more important.

Sorry I thought it was -0.3 in his second season. It was actually 0.3. I agree with you now. Bruce Brown is awesome, can’t believe we stole him from the Pacers lol. And it’s not just 18 games he’s been bad, it’s 51. The Pacers traded him for a reason. I think he’s a useful player in the right situation, which the Raptors are not.

There’s a whole range of outcomes between being a net negative and being awesome.

Brown has firmly been a quality 6th/7th man for almost his entire career.

If you don’t understand why Pacers traded Brown (or to go further, why they even signed him), that’s on you for just ignoring the facts of the situation.

They didn’t trade him because he suck. They traded him as he signed for the purpose of being salary filler. Hes currently overpaid, but he’s still a useful player 30/30 NBA teams would take.

[pingpongrac]

No, no he doesn't. He's been in the NBA for 6 seasons now and in 3 of those 6 seasons he's posted a positive VORP topping out at 1.2 one season with Brooklyn, which is adequate starter or solid reserve level. He also only has one season where he's posted a positive BPM of 0.7, that same season with Brooklyn where he posted the VORP of 1.2, otherwise he's posted a negative BPM every season.

About 100 players a year have a positive BPM. What a ridiculously high and (frankly) stupid bar to hold guys to.

Just think about that - 33% of the leagues starters have negatives BPM.

Not to mention, your numbers are wrong. He’s had positive VORP in 4/6 seasons, and this season is his first negative since he was a rookie.

So yeah… just entirely and utterly false to say he hasn’t had sufficient evidence of being a positive player.

But hey - 18 games is more important.

Sorry I thought it was -0.3 in his second season. It was actually 0.3. I agree with you now. Bruce Brown is awesome, can’t believe we stole him from the Pacers lol. And it’s not just 18 games he’s been bad, it’s 51. The Pacers traded him for a reason. I think he’s a useful player in the right situation, which the Raptors are not.

Pointing to Brown's BPM and VORP for his career as evidence to him not being a positive impact player is a bit murky considering ~75% of the league (including quite a few starters) would grade out as a neutral or negative-impact player if you used those same standards for everyone. He was a key contributor for a Championship team last season while also being a good spot starter / 6th man for the KD+Kyrie Nets in 20/21 and 21/22. He is at his best as a glue guy alongside some all-star caliber players, but he's also a guy that should be able to produce and be impactful for a team like us. His +/- in Toronto is abysmal so far, but the team as a whole has been terrible for the most part and there were/are a few players with similar bad +/- numbers in the same stretch. Brown (-7.9 per game) has come off the bench in most of his appearances since the trade where Schroder (-7.6) and Olynyk (-7.0) were/are big negatives as well while Barrett (-6.2) who plays a lot of minutes with the bench has also been a big negative.

I think Brown is playing too many minutes and I'd rather see Gradey and/or Agbaji getting 3-5 more MPG, but he hasn't been near as bad as the +/- leads one to believe. Considering the team as a whole has been outscored by ~8 PPG since the trade, it's pretty inconsequential. Those extra 2-3 points that we're getting outscored by when Brown is on the court in ~25 MPG isn't the difference between us being 6-11 and 11-6.

[YogurtProducer]

About 100 players a year have a positive BPM. What a ridiculously high and (frankly) stupid bar to hold guys to.

Just think about that - 33% of the leagues starters have negatives BPM.

Not to mention, your numbers are wrong. He’s had positive VORP in 4/6 seasons, and this season is his first negative since he was a rookie.

So yeah… just entirely and utterly false to say he hasn’t had sufficient evidence of being a positive player.

But hey - 18 games is more important.

Sorry I thought it was -0.3 in his second season. It was actually 0.3. I agree with you now. Bruce Brown is awesome, can’t believe we stole him from the Pacers lol. And it’s not just 18 games he’s been bad, it’s 51. The Pacers traded him for a reason. I think he’s a useful player in the right situation, which the Raptors are not.

Pointing to Brown's BPM and VORP for his career as evidence to him not being a positive impact player is a bit murky considering ~75% of the league (including quite a few starters) would grade out as a neutral or negative-impact player if you used those same standards for everyone. He was a key contributor for a Championship team last season while also being a good spot starter / 6th man for the KD+Kyrie Nets in 20/21 and 21/22. He is at his best as a glue guy alongside some all-star caliber players, but he's also a guy that should be able to produce and be impactful for a team like us. His +/- in Toronto is abysmal so far, but the team as a whole has been terrible for the most part and there were/are a few players with similar bad +/- numbers in the same stretch. Brown (-7.9 per game) has come off the bench in most of his appearances since the trade where Schroder (-7.6) and Olynyk (-7.0) were/are big negatives as well while Barrett (-6.2) who plays a lot of minutes with the bench has also been a big negative.

I think Brown is playing too many minutes and I'd rather see Gradey and/or Agbaji getting 3-5 more MPG, but he hasn't been near as bad as the +/- leads one to believe. Considering the team as a whole has been outscored by ~8 PPG since the trade, it's pretty inconsequential. Those extra 2-3 points that we're getting outscored by when Brown is on the court in ~25 MPG isn't the difference between us being 6-11 and 11-6.

Yeah just because you have a negative BPM does not mean you are a negative player. The reality of the NBA is that BPM is skewed towards the top of the league. 104 players this year have a positive BPM. That means there is at least 20% of the leagues starters that are negative.

It is just a horrible take to try and act like Brown does not have a significantly bigger sample of being a good player than being a poor one. Just awful.