NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2023-24 (Part 4: MVP Thread's Revenge)

[RB34]

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This is really just a two horse race between SGA and Jokic barring a miracle run by Giannis or Tatum or an injury

Tatum over Luka.

I can't take anyone seriously who rates Tatum this high just because his team improved.

He is worse than last season.... Improved record is due to adding Porzingis and Jrue....

Tatum is better than last year. You’d know that if you watched him.

[RB34]

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This is really just a two horse race between SGA and Jokic barring a miracle run by Giannis or Tatum or an injury

Thoughts on why there is a big gap between SGA and Giannis?

[Woodsanity]

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This is really just a two horse race between SGA and Jokic barring a miracle run by Giannis or Tatum or an injury

Tatum over Luka.

I can't take anyone seriously who rates Tatum this high just because his team improved.

He is worse than last season.... Improved record is due to adding Porzingis and Jrue....

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Please figure out how +/- works before you make posts like this.

Guess what?

The starters are: Jrue, Brown, Porzingis, Derrick White, Tatum.

Give SGA that roster and its probably a high 60s win team. Who cares.

[Woodsanity]

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This is really just a two horse race between SGA and Jokic barring a miracle run by Giannis or Tatum or an injury

Tatum over Luka.

I can't take anyone seriously who rates Tatum this high just because his team improved.

He is worse than last season.... Improved record is due to adding Porzingis and Jrue....

Tatum is better than last year. You’d know that if you watched him.

Based on? Your personal biase?
Give me proof of your delusion.

At best he is marginally better but no major improvement. Certainly nothing close to the leap SGA took from last year to this year.

[RB34]

Tatum over Luka.

I can't take anyone seriously who rates Tatum this high just because his team improved.

He is worse than last season.... Improved record is due to adding Porzingis and Jrue....

Tatum is better than last year. You’d know that if you watched him.

Based on? Your personal biase?
Give me proof of your delusion.

At best he is marginally better but no major improvement. Certainly nothing close to the leap SGA took from last year to this year.

I’m deluded but you just admitted he’s better than last year in your next sentence.

His passing, playmaking and defence has improved as well as his timing. He’s always been a good defender but he’s a lot more locked in.

I didn’t say he took a bigger leap than SGA, I said he is better than he was last year, which he is.If you watch him.

It sounds like you’re the one with the bias.

[Exp0sed]

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This is really just a two horse race between SGA and Jokic barring a miracle run by Giannis or Tatum or an injury

Tatum over Luka.

I can't take anyone seriously who rates Tatum this high just because his team improved.

He is worse than last season.... Improved record is due to adding Porzingis and Jrue....

Read on Twitter

?s=46&t=2r3K1qCL2UmIu9zb8OVdDw

I don't get it, say the Mavs are +225 with Luka compared to without and the C's are +339, considering all the noise involved I wouldn't regard it as such a huge gap

Luka has played half the season without Kyrie and was the sole focus of defenses, whenever he sits - the best defender\s take a breather on the bench. is it like that for Tatum too? ofc not..

i'm not impressed by this margin, if that's supposed to convince me Tatum is having a better individual season than Luka I can say personally that it really doesn't have the desired effect

[Woodsanity]

Swap Tatum with a player like Donovan Mitchell and do the Cavs improve record wise? My answer is no.

People should learn to separate the individual from the team. This is the Most Valuable Player award not very good player on most stacked team award.

[Archx]

Tatum over Luka.

I can't take anyone seriously who rates Tatum this high just because his team improved.

He is worse than last season.... Improved record is due to adding Porzingis and Jrue....

Read on Twitter

?s=46&t=2r3K1qCL2UmIu9zb8OVdDw

I don't get it, say the Mavs are +225 with Luka compared to without and the C's are +339, considering all the noise involved I wouldn't regard it as such a huge gap

Luka has played half the season without Kyrie and was the sole focus of defenses, whenever he sits - the best defender\s take a breather on the bench. is it like that for Tatum too? ofc not..

i'm not impressed by this margin, if that's supposed to convince me Tatum is having a better individual season than Luka I can say personally that it really doesn't have the desired effect

It just means that Celtics have an insanely strong team. Given how Mavs had horrible luck with injuries and Doncic's On/Off climbing from -3.6 to + 6.1 in just two and a half months, just proves what we have been saying about the Mavs all year long.

[Exp0sed]

Swap Tatum with a player like Donovan Mitchell and do the Cavs improve record wise? My answer is no.

People should learn to separate the individual from the team. This is the Most Valuable Player award not very good player on most stacked team award.

Tatum is a better defender and they probably do improve but it'll be maybe 2-3 wins tops

[Exp0sed]

Jayson Tatum leads the Celtics in points, rebounds, assists and steals. He's efficient. And the C's are significantly better when he's on the court.

3 players have had Tatum's stats for a team that won 75% of its games - Giannis, Malone and Kareem. All 3 won MVP.

which stats are u refering to?

[dygaction]

I think it has been factored in. If Judging by this, Jokic should have won the past 5 and next 10 in a row.

If Gordon and Porter "go ham" it's usually because Jokic is feeding them or drawing players. They're both finishers.

Exactly.

Career Assist %, all Centers, NBA History, Min 20000 MP (This is HILARIOUS):



Playoffs, Career:

[bisme37]

Jayson Tatum leads the Celtics in points, rebounds, assists and steals. He's efficient. And the C's are significantly better when he's on the court.

3 players have had Tatum's stats for a team that won 75% of its games - Giannis, Malone and Kareem. All 3 won MVP.

which stats are u refering to?

Tatum is the 4th player to have at least 27/8/4 and 60 TS% for a team with a .750 win percentage. The previous 3 won MVP.

I'm not ambitious enough but it would be interesting to go back over the years and think about which MVP awards would have gone to different players if we'd had access to all of today's advanced stats. Seems like watching games and rewarding winning has taken a backseat to weird rating formulas with clever acronyms. I'm still old school I guess and not fully on board with all that.

[bisme37]

Tatum is better than last year. You’d know that if you watched him.

Based on? Your personal biase?
Give me proof of your delusion.

At best he is marginally better but no major improvement. Certainly nothing close to the leap SGA took from last year to this year.

I’m deluded but you just admitted he’s better than last year in your next sentence.

His passing, playmaking and defence has improved as well as his timing. He’s always been a good defender but he’s a lot more locked in.

I didn’t say he took a bigger leap than SGA, I said he is better than he was last year, which he is.If you watch him.

It sounds like you’re the one with the bias.

I almost made a thread about this recently but I couldn't figure out how to word what I was trying to say.

People dismiss fans of a team as homers, but fans of a team are the ones actually watching that team.

So should we put more stock in "homer" takes, or takes from people who don't watch the team/player and thus have little to no idea what they're even talking about?

I tend to listen to fans of a team/player when I want to learn about a team/player. And then just filter out some of the more hyperbolic homer stuff if needed.

[yannisk]

Tatum is the 4th player to have at least 27/8/4 and 60 TS% for a team with a .750 win percentage. The previous 3 won MVP.

I am sorry but this reminded me the following



I am sure we can similarly choose other combinations of stats for the other mvp candidates

[bisme37]

Tatum is the 4th player to have at least 27/8/4 and 60 TS% for a team with a .750 win percentage. The previous 3 won MVP.

I am sorry but this reminded me the following



I am sure we can similarly choose other combinations of stats for the other mvp candidates

That's not the same thing. I said the 3 previous players who've had Tatum's stats for a team that won 75% of its games all won MVP. Which is not arbitrary or random at all.

Then someone asked me what the stats are, so I basically just added detail and put numbers on it. Apparently this is too nuanced for people to actually think about though.

[Kurtz]

Tatum is the 4th player to have at least 27/8/4 and 60 TS% for a team with a .750 win percentage. The previous 3 won MVP.

I am sorry but this reminded me the following



I am sure we can similarly choose other combinations of stats for the other mvp candidates

That's not the same thing. I said the 3 previous players who've had Tatum's stats for a team that won 75% of its games all won MVP. Which is not arbitrary or random at all.

Then someone asked me what the stats are, so I basically just added detail and put numbers on it. Apparently this is too nuanced for people to actually think about though.

There's not much nuance here, you're simply applying an arbitrary collection of stats and percentages to make an argument. The image provided demonstrates the folly of this perfectly.

27/8/4 is an off-night for the actual MVP contenders in the year 2024.

[Exp0sed]

Jayson Tatum leads the Celtics in points, rebounds, assists and steals. He's efficient. And the C's are significantly better when he's on the court.

3 players have had Tatum's stats for a team that won 75% of its games - Giannis, Malone and Kareem. All 3 won MVP.

which stats are u refering to?

Tatum is the 4th player to have at least 27/8/4 and 60 TS% for a team with a .750 win percentage. The previous 3 won MVP.

I'm not ambitious enough but it would be interesting to go back over the years and think about which MVP awards would have gone to different players if we'd had access to all of today's advanced stats. Seems like watching games and rewarding winning has taken a backseat to weird rating formulas with clever acronyms. I'm still old school I guess and not fully on board with all that.

that's a terrible criteria tho
scoring is at an all time explosion, teams and the league is a whole more efficient than ever. who had 60 TS% at all 10 years or 20 years ago and how many are now?

same goes for 27 ppg, how many 27+ ppg scorers are now compared to 15 years ago or 30?

here's the reality of it - when Giannis, Malone and Kareem led their teams to 75%+ winrate, they were clearly the best players who had the best raw stats (and advanced). Tatum's 27/8/4 on 60 TS% doesn't even come close, indvidually to multiple other MVP candidates, just like Booker a few years back

I think ur reaching if the only case u can make surrounds an arbitrary (and very misleading since it doesn't account for the scoring inflation) stat as the best argument for Tatum's MVP case

an already elite team (who was just in the finals with a similar core two years back) and is led by two supermax players, adds a top 30-40 player in KP (whose basically the ultimate stretch 5) and a championship level and extremely savvy vet PG (albeit a little over the hill) and they go on to win a ton of games...that's not gonna get anyone an MVP, not on 27\8\4 when the competition is far better

it's also disingenious to compare efficiencies imo, which former wing superstars played with the amount of spacing Tatum is playing with? where you can't cheat help off anyone and prime Tatum is basically on an island all day long?

he should be at like 67 TS% to impress me with the space he's got to operate in. he's been the benefciary of some excellent rosters for the majority of his career, give him a season with say Kleber and Bullock and we'll see how his efficiency looks then

even without KP etc. just having a supemax co-star whose basically a top 20 player himeslf should be a recipe for an automatic 60 wins, can you see why Tatum has to really do something special to even be considered? even 8 more team wins in this particular context won't do the trick, srry but that doesn't bridge the invdividual gap imo

i'm aware of his impact stats consistently painting him as the main driver of the C's success and he is obviously a top 10 player but he's not the MVP. he's got 0.190 WS with 27\8\4 when his co-star is averging 22.5\5.5\3.5 on a similar 58 TS% on slightly lower usage

there's like 10 teams in the league that don't have anyone averging more than the 22.3 JB is averging..even some playoff teams and KP is averging over 20 ppg himself. it is what it is

no terror watchlists, ur opinion is valid and relevant (regardless of being a homer) - personally I don't see it at all, if i'm being honest

[Johnny Tomala]

Tatum over Luka is ridiculous.

1. Doncić
2. Jokić
3. SGA
4. Giannis
5. Tatum

[dygaction]

Jayson Tatum leads the Celtics in points, rebounds, assists and steals. He's efficient. And the C's are significantly better when he's on the court.

3 players have had Tatum's stats for a team that won 75% of its games - Giannis, Malone and Kareem. All 3 won MVP.

which stats are u refering to?

Tatum is the 4th player to have at least 27/8/4 and 60 TS% for a team with a .750 win percentage. The previous 3 won MVP.

I'm not ambitious enough but it would be interesting to go back over the years and think about which MVP awards would have gone to different players if we'd had access to all of today's advanced stats. Seems like watching games and rewarding winning has taken a backseat to weird rating formulas with clever acronyms. I'm still old school I guess and not fully on board with all that.

That's so customized cook. Last player to have 34/8/8 was, en, nobody in the history. Luka is having 34.4/8.8/9.7, not just 34/8/8.

[bisme37]

I am sorry but this reminded me the following

Spoiler:

I am sure we can similarly choose other combinations of stats for the other mvp candidates

That's not the same thing. I said the 3 previous players who've had Tatum's stats for a team that won 75% of its games all won MVP. Which is not arbitrary or random at all.

Then someone asked me what the stats are, so I basically just added detail and put numbers on it. Apparently this is too nuanced for people to actually think about though.

There's not much nuance here, you're simply applying an arbitrary collection of stats and percentages to make an argument. The image provided demonstrates the folly of this perfectly.

27/8/4 is an off-night for the actual MVP contenders in the year 2024.

It's not at all arbitrary lol. You guys just don't want to hear it. I was asked for stats so I basically posted Tatum's stats and rounded them down since I was referring to a threshold. I didn't make anything up, and point/rebounds/assists/ts% are not random stats.

If you read my initial post, my case for Tatum is not stats based. Only a small part of my post got quoted. I listed stats only in response to a question I got.

My case is I value winning in the MVP race and I think the guy who leads the best team in every category and makes the team substantially better should be a strong candidate for MVP. And I said straight away that most people seem to have a different criteria than I do and would likely not agree.

I don't think Tatum is going to win MVP this season. I've said it at least 5 times in the last week. I just think he's strong candidate and it's reasonable to say so. And I don't really care about the LEBRONS or DARKOS or whatever people look at these days instead of basketball. My criteria puts the most value on winning.

One more thing while I'm at it... last year for, I dunno, maybe the first 75% of the season people in this thread were mocking Sixers fans for even mentioning Embiid as an MVP candidate and reporting them as trolls. Then Embiid won MVP.

Which kinda goes to my point about there being no defined criteria for MVP. The posters in this thread aren't always on the same page as the actually MVP voters and I think some folks here are really closed minded about things that go against their preconceived notions. Which reminds me of how this thread is not and has never been my favorite haha.