In a draft: Chris Paul vs Kawhi Leonard

[70sFan]

What are we counting as prime Paul because I definitely see the Lob City Clippers as comparably talented to the 2019 Raptors.

I don't see that. Blake was an excellent 2nd option, although injury-prone. Other than him, the team was nothing special. Their third best player was either defensive liability Redick or extremely overrated Jordan. Toronto had an extremely deep roster, you can argue that Jordan wouldn't be in top 5 Raptors players.

[HeartBreakKid]

What are we counting as prime Paul because I definitely see the Lob City Clippers as comparably talented to the 2019 Raptors.

I don't see that. Blake was an excellent 2nd option, although injury-prone. Other than him, the team was nothing special. Their third best player was either defensive liability Redick or extremely overrated Jordan. Toronto had an extremely deep roster, you can argue that Jordan wouldn't be in top 5 Raptors players.

Toronto had a much better coach also.

[The Master]

What are we counting as prime Paul because I definitely see the Lob City Clippers as comparably talented to the 2019 Raptors. I'm also not saying it's impossible for Paul to lead a team to a title just because he never did, I just personally don't think it'd be very likely for him to do it. It's not even about Paul himself as much as we've never seen a player of CP3's archetype (6 foot tall floor general) even come particularly close to leading a team to a title. Nash couldn't do it and he has a legit argument as the most impactful offensive player ever, Stockton couldn't do it despite his unmatched consistency for well over a decade, I just don't see why Paul would be the one to break that narrative.

Volume scoring (and overall playoff resilience due to that) is sometimes underrated on this board. But it's more about peak discussion in this case as the biggest disparity between these two is their longevity (so far).

I don't agree on this Clippers' part though: considering Blake was injured in 2013, 2016 and 2017 - that leaves you with 2012, 2014 and 2015 as legit playoff chances.

In 2012, CP3 was injured (and these postseason injuries are something he definitely should've been blamed of in terms of his career value, but that's another story) - I don't think these 2014 and 2015 teams are near Raptors depth and talent wise. Clippers had no depth nor perimeter defense and even with Griffin and CP3 actually playing well, they always lacked those. Not to mention coaching difference as well. You can blame players' leadership for this collapse against Rockets in 2015, but it was pretty straightforward awful display of defense, coaching and role players' slump - and this is not necessarily something that Paul can be crticised for. Unless you really believe in DeAndre being actually a DPOTY-level defender - from time perspective, core of DeAndre-Redick-Crawford as 3rd-5th best players on a championship-level team looks ... weak. Especially considering lack of depth from the bench and CP3-Griffin not being a bigger star power than leaders of the teams that they match up against at that time sometimes (OKC 2014, for example).

Raptors could've had offensive problems here and there due to lack of 1b offensive option, but their defense was fantastic post-Gasol trade, their depth was outstanding and they still had Lowry who could organize HCO. These were perfect conditions for a player like Kawhi (two-way player, volume scoring, lacking playmaking skills) to thrive, Kobe would/ve been amazing within these conditions as well. I don't think of any prime CP3s team in the same way (pre-Rockets trade).

[Dutchball97]

Hmm I think I forgot how much roster turnover the Clippers had in a relatively short time. In any given year they did not have as many valuable contributors as the Raptors did in the 2019 season.

[trex_8063]

What are we counting as prime Paul because I definitely see the Lob City Clippers as comparably talented to the 2019 Raptors. I'm also not saying it's impossible for Paul to lead a team to a title just because he never did, I just personally don't think it'd be very likely for him to do it. It's not even about Paul himself as much as we've never seen a player of CP3's archetype (6 foot tall floor general) even come particularly close to leading a team to a title. Nash couldn't do it and he has a legit argument as the most impactful offensive player ever, Stockton couldn't do it despite his unmatched consistency for well over a decade, I just don't see why Paul would be the one to break that narrative.

There was that guy Isiah Thomas, who many tout as the unquestioned leader of a 2-time champion.
Some would say Chauncey Billups was the best player on another champion [probably a 1b at worst].

Save for dirty hip-check by Robert Horry, Steve Nash very well might have.
Save for a two atrociously blown shotclock calls [both in Chicago's favour], John Stockton likely would have.


And personally, I don't think I'd rate the Lob City supporting cast as quite as good as that Toronto cast, not when look at depth down the bench.

For instance, looking beyond what might be called the "big three" for each team......

Toronto
Serge Ibaka
Danny Green
aging Marc Gasol
burgeoning Fred VanVleet
young OG Anunoby
Norman Powell
then some other odds and ends,

the best ones in LAC
JJ Redick
aging Jamal Crawford
aging Matt Barnes, and.....
....well, mostly a rotating door of odds and ends after that; guys of a quality like Austin Rivers (decent player in Darren Collison ONE year).

idk, to me that just doesn't really compare.

That Toronto squad was a team that just the year before Kawhi's arrival had won 59 games with a +7.29 SRS. The only major changes from the '18 squad to '19 was a young Jakob Poeltl left replaced with [peakish] Danny Green (small upgrade, imo), and a bunch of their young/promising players improved (e.g. Pascal Siakam, FVV, OG Anunoby).......
.......and then DeMar DeRozan was swapped for Kawhi.

In other words, Kawhi got a cast that was SIGNIFICANTLY BETTER THAN the cast DeMar DeRozan was able to win 59 games with. One might even suggest that a big contributing factor to Kawhi actually being healthy in the post-season was because he was a on a team that was so good he had the luxury of sitting out 22 games (almost never actual "injuries", just resting the fragile body), and often coasting when he did play, and they still nabbed the #2 seed.

In the playoffs they then got lucky that the a potential monster team in their way (faced in the Finals) was decimated by injuries: Klay Thompson and Kevon Looney both missed one game [which Toronto won], and Kevin Durant basically missed the entire series. Still took the Raps 6 games to close it.

EDIT: Whoops, not trying to pile it on (I see someone else raised some of these same points).

[Dutchball97]

I'm a big fan of Paul but there's a lot of would've, could've, should've going on here. Like was there any season where people legitimately thought he was going to lead his team to a title, if only he didn't get injured again, if only he had a little bit more help, if only a call or two went his way? Probably more seasons for Kawhi where this is the case tbh.

My point is I don't think there is a reality where Paul gives you better chances at winning a title than Kawhi. If people do feel this way I don't want to **** on them or anything but I can't really entertain it.

[ShotCreator]

I'm a big fan of Paul but there's a lot of would've, could've, should've going on here. Like was there any season where people legitimately thought he was going to lead his team to a title, if only he didn't get injured again, if only he had a little bit more help, if only a call or two went his way? Probably more seasons for Kawhi where this is the case tbh.

My point is I don't think there is a reality where Paul gives you better chances at winning a title than Kawhi. If people do feel this way I don't want to **** on them or anything but I can't really entertain it.

What about the reality where they just switch teams for their whole careers.

How many titles is prime Paul racking up in SA, Toronto, and LAC?

I'm high on Kawhi Peak in 17 but he has been on preposterously loaded teams his entire career. His worst cast will probably be the 23 Clippers. And by far so. His worst team before that is the 17 Spurs? A team that blew the Harden Rockets out when he missed a game 6 and closed the series to make the WCF.

Kawhi in Paul's place doesn't have a shot at anything until a Clippers trade well into his career. And by that time he has the degenerative leg condition.
Chris Paul was in his prime by his 3rd year. Wouldn't leave it until his 13th. I could see CP3 getting 4 titles in his spot. 14, 15, both peak Pop spurs years coinciding with prime Paul. 19 - Raptors - Give em somebody like current late prime PG instead of late prime lowry and Kawhi. Easy title replacement. That would've been 15 Paul on the Raptors. 17 Paul was fantastic, and highly skilled as his speed slipped a bit - he got more skilled. 17 Paul on the space and pace 21 Clippers would've been deadly. Weaker west. Beatable bucks.

6 titles. All as the man. No better as a player.


Hmm.....Then again 19 Kawhi was extremely, extremely good in the ECSF. I could see Paul lighting up the Sixers too, in his own way of course - Not the way Kawhi did it - However Embiid was extremely dominant defensively. There used to be on/off stats on NBA.COM. Embiid shut Kawhi down when on court, Kawhi simply did something like 50 pts per 36 without him on the floor on ridiculously high efficiency.. 15 Paul and drop schemes don't mix. CP3 just sustaining his regular level of play while on court with Embiid would be enough to pull that series. If I had to bet my life on nearly peak CP3 vs. Embiid's defense in a playoff series, I'm going CP3. But again, Embiid as extremely effective. Even the final shot Kawhi made. Actually look at how hard Embiid made that shot for him. Completely trailing him even though Simmons was in front and got a strong, strong contest on the baseline.


3 maybe 4 titles as the man.