Sim Results: Bird+Jordan vs. James+Curry

[SilentA]

"Killer instinct, alpha mentality, and sheer will" stuff in theory probably can be measured tbh, it just has too many variables compared to many traditional stats, and it means different things to different people because people use these terms loosely. But I wouldn't say the idea in itself is completely useless or made up.

It would probably involve some combination of these, to different levels depending on the player:

- Overall playoff improvement relative to competition
- Clutch stats (those 4th quarter/final 5 minutes/game within a few points stats)
- Hustle stats
- Increased tough shotmaking at a better-than-expected % in either close/competitive regular season games, clutch moments, or playoffs
- Increased volume scoring or defensive stops to lead comebacks
- Evidence of playing when hurt or ill (and playing well regardless)

Sadly there's no agreed upon "DAWG" advanced metric that combines all these things. One day hopefully.

The harder one is teammate intangibles and leadership, where you have to rely on mostly qualitative and far more limited information.

[Franco]

Simulating something like this can be fun, but it being used for anything other than pure entertainment/**** and giggles is just... lol. Kinda feels out of place on the PC Board.

[The Explorer]

The level of cringe I get from posts like this is only surpassed by the likes of Skip.

Actually, its posts like this that are cringe-worthy. Are you suggesting intangibles have no place in basketball discussion and analysis?

Actual analysis requires actually analyzing outcomes instead of assuming something is better cause other people said so lol

Who's assuming 'something is better cause other people said so'?

Analysis includes many things in addition to analyzing outcomes such as:
- how and why those outcomes took place
- what the conditions were when the outcomes took place
- the time, place, environment of the outcomes
- the alternative outcomes that were possible, but didn't occur

Since you didn't directly answer my question, it seems you are indeed suggesting intangibles have no place in basketball discussion and analysis.

[OhayoKD]

Actually, its posts like this that are cringe-worthy. Are you suggesting intangibles have no place in basketball discussion and analysis?

Actual analysis requires actually analyzing outcomes instead of assuming something is better cause other people said so lol

Who's assuming 'something is better cause other people said so'?

Anyone arguing Jordan has a real "will to win" case here:

Spoiler:

According to one official, Hughes was explicitly told by Jordan to get him the ball if he wanted to play. When Hughes began passing it to Stackhouse as much as to Jordan, he was soon benched. Point guard Tyronn Lue, the official said, obliged and began finding Jordan every time he played. ''He was scared to death of what would happen to him in his career if he didn't,'' the player said of Lue. ''He was always looking at the bench at Michael.''

Late last fall, Richard Hamilton and Jordan got into an ugly shouting match. The two officials said it began when Hamilton told Jordan he was tired of being a ''Jordannaire,'' the term used for Jordan's role players in Chicago. ''Rip was a young, brash guy who threatened the idea of Michael being the guy here,'' the official said. ''He was promptly gotten rid of for Stackhouse.'' A person close to Jordan denied Hamilton was traded because of a personality conflict. He insisted contractual issues led to the Stackhouse deal.

In the season's final weeks, players openly complained about the double standards for Jordan. Promptly dressed and ready to speak with reporters after games, they were forced to wait in the locker room for 15 or 20 minutes while Jordan showered and dressed in a private room.

asically I was planning to ask Michael, who had won his third scoring title in a row the previous season, to reduce the number of shots he took so that other members of the team could get more involved in the offense. I knew this would be a challenge for him: Michael was only the second player to win both a scoring title and the league MVP award in the same year, the first being Kareem Abdul-Jabbar in 1971.
I told [Michael] that I was planning to implement the triangle and, as a result, he probably wouldn’t be able to win another scoring title. “You’ve got to share the spotlight with your teammates,” I said, “because if you don’t, they won’t grow.”
"Okay, I guess I could average thirty-two points,” he said. “That’s eight points a quarter. Nobody else is going to do that.”
“Well, when you put it that way, maybe you can win the title,” I said. “But how about scoring a few more of those points at the end of the gbame?”
Looking back, Michael says that he liked this approach because it “allowed me to be the person I needed to be.” Sometimes I would tell him that he needed to be aggressive and set the tone for the team. Other times I’d say, “Why don’t you try to get Scottie going so that the defenders will go after him and then you can attack?”
In general, I tried to give Michael room to figure out how to integrate his personal ambitions with those of the team. “Phil knew that winning the scoring title was important to me,” Michael says now, “but I wanted to do it in a way that didn’t take away from what the team was doing.”

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[The Explorer]

Actual analysis requires actually analyzing outcomes instead of assuming something is better cause other people said so lol

Who's assuming 'something is better cause other people said so'?

Anyone arguing Jordan has a real "will to win" case here:

Spoiler:

According to one official, Hughes was explicitly told by Jordan to get him the ball if he wanted to play. When Hughes began passing it to Stackhouse as much as to Jordan, he was soon benched. Point guard Tyronn Lue, the official said, obliged and began finding Jordan every time he played. ''He was scared to death of what would happen to him in his career if he didn't,'' the player said of Lue. ''He was always looking at the bench at Michael.''

Late last fall, Richard Hamilton and Jordan got into an ugly shouting match. The two officials said it began when Hamilton told Jordan he was tired of being a ''Jordannaire,'' the term used for Jordan's role players in Chicago. ''Rip was a young, brash guy who threatened the idea of Michael being the guy here,'' the official said. ''He was promptly gotten rid of for Stackhouse.'' A person close to Jordan denied Hamilton was traded because of a personality conflict. He insisted contractual issues led to the Stackhouse deal.

In the season's final weeks, players openly complained about the double standards for Jordan. Promptly dressed and ready to speak with reporters after games, they were forced to wait in the locker room for 15 or 20 minutes while Jordan showered and dressed in a private room.

asically I was planning to ask Michael, who had won his third scoring title in a row the previous season, to reduce the number of shots he took so that other members of the team could get more involved in the offense. I knew this would be a challenge for him: Michael was only the second player to win both a scoring title and the league MVP award in the same year, the first being Kareem Abdul-Jabbar in 1971.
I told [Michael] that I was planning to implement the triangle and, as a result, he probably wouldn’t be able to win another scoring title. “You’ve got to share the spotlight with your teammates,” I said, “because if you don’t, they won’t grow.”
"Okay, I guess I could average thirty-two points,” he said. “That’s eight points a quarter. Nobody else is going to do that.”
“Well, when you put it that way, maybe you can win the title,” I said. “But how about scoring a few more of those points at the end of the gbame?”
Looking back, Michael says that he liked this approach because it “allowed me to be the person I needed to be.” Sometimes I would tell him that he needed to be aggressive and set the tone for the team. Other times I’d say, “Why don’t you try to get Scottie going so that the defenders will go after him and then you can attack?”
In general, I tried to give Michael room to figure out how to integrate his personal ambitions with those of the team. “Phil knew that winning the scoring title was important to me,” Michael says now, “but I wanted to do it in a way that didn’t take away from what the team was doing.”

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You didn't answer anything in my post. With your cited examples, it seems you are inferring Jordan had terrible intangibles, therefore implying that intangibles do matter.

[NbaAllDay]

Actually, its posts like this that are cringe-worthy. Are you suggesting intangibles have no place in basketball discussion and analysis?

Actual analysis requires actually analyzing outcomes instead of assuming something is better cause other people said so lol

Who's assuming 'something is better cause other people said so'?

Analysis includes many things in addition to analyzing outcomes such as:
- how and why those outcomes took place
- what the conditions were when the outcomes took place
- the time, place, environment of the outcomes
- the alternative outcomes that were possible, but didn't occur

Since you didn't directly answer my question, it seems you are indeed suggesting intangibles have no place in basketball discussion and analysis.

To the bolded: Right so you are confirming intangibles don't have a place in analysis since can't have measurable outcomes using intangibles.

The rest is literally making a case for context. Which is definitely important.

[ShotCreator]

I'm banned for a month and I come back to this as a thread on the PC Board...Guess I'll be leaving for another month.

As someone who believes in 2K as a determinator of hypothetical scenarios, I appreciated it.