2023-24 NBA Season Discussion

[PooledSilver]

OKC is often depicted as a deep young team with several reasons behind their meteoric rise. But looking at the net ratings for their three most important players in comparison, I can't help but wonder: how reliant is OKC on SGA to be a very strong team at this point? Is he more/less/roughly as important to his team compared to the average MVP-level player on a HCA playoff team?

SGA ON, Chet ON: +10.6 (1306 minutes)
SGA ON, Chet OFF: +14.3 (726 minutes)
SGA OFF, Chet ON: +2.1 (503 minutes)

SGA ON, J-Dub ON: +11.5 (1119 minutes)
SGA ON, J-Dub OFF: +12.3 (915 minutes)
SGA OFF, J-Dub ON: -1.0 (608 minutes)

SGA ON, Chet OFF, J-Dub OFF: +12.3 (545 minutes)
SGA OFF, Chet ON, J-Dub ON: -2.6 (438 minutes)

(numbers do not yet include last night's game)

I’d say Shai is playing at a pretty clear MVP level so far, his RAPM is #1 so far and all the advanced data paints him as a best in the league contender

I wouldn’t mind Shai getting MVP this year at all even though there’s no shot

[Peregrine01]

Celtics versus the west are only 15-7. 33-7 against the east. Really shows just how weak the east is again.

Timberwolves versus the east are only 14-9. 30-10 against the west.

Good catch. Probably the better way to show it is that the East is .44 against the west this year while the west is .56 against the east. Most lopsided since 2015.

[sp6r=underrated]

The NBA has to start suspending players who accuse refs of fixing games. Fines doesn't work. It is an outrageous accusation. Anytime a player makes the accusation they should be required to prove the charge. And if they can't you get a month suspension.

[PooledSilver]

The NBA has to start suspending players who accuse refs of fixing games. Fines doesn't work. It is an outrageous accusation. Anytime a player makes the accusation they should be required to prove the charge. And if they can't you get a month suspension.

Refs have been pretty bad lately anyways and some of these techs are ridiculous

[sp6r=underrated]

The NBA has to start suspending players who accuse refs of fixing games. Fines doesn't work. It is an outrageous accusation. Anytime a player makes the accusation they should be required to prove the charge. And if they can't you get a month suspension.

Refs have been pretty bad lately anyways and some of these techs are ridiculous

NBA refs are very, very good at their jobs. Way better than the average person is at his or her job.

And for sake of discussion if you're right that NBA refs are bad that doesn't justify accusing refs of fixing games. That is a completely different accusation. It implies watching the NBA is like watching the WWE. Players or coaches who make that accusation should be suspended if they can't support it.

[AEnigma]

The NBA has to start suspending players who accuse refs of fixing games. Fines doesn't work. It is an outrageous accusation. Anytime a player makes the accusation they should be required to prove the charge. And if they can't you get a month suspension. NBA refs are very, very good at their jobs. Way better than the average person is at his or her job. And for sake of discussion if […] NBA refs are bad that doesn't justify accusing refs of fixing games. That is a completely different accusation. It implies watching the NBA is like watching the WWE. Players or coaches who make that accusation should be suspended if they can't support it.

Tough call between this and Jay Bilas’s “arrest court stormers” for most comically out of touch sports take of 2024.

[HeartBreakKid]

The NBA has to start suspending players who accuse refs of fixing games. Fines doesn't work. It is an outrageous accusation. Anytime a player makes the accusation they should be required to prove the charge. And if they can't you get a month suspension.

Refs have been pretty bad lately anyways and some of these techs are ridiculous

Way better than the average person is at his or her job.

Average person is terrible at their job or has a job that is useless. Not really saying much.

[sp6r=underrated]

The NBA has to start suspending players who accuse refs of fixing games. Fines doesn't work. It is an outrageous accusation. Anytime a player makes the accusation they should be required to prove the charge. And if they can't you get a month suspension. NBA refs are very, very good at their jobs. Way better than the average person is at his or her job. And for sake of discussion if […] NBA refs are bad that doesn't justify accusing refs of fixing games. That is a completely different accusation. It implies watching the NBA is like watching the WWE. Players or coaches who make that accusation should be suspended if they can't support it.

Tough call between this and Jay Bilas’s “arrest court stormers” for most comically out of touch sports take of 2024.

I work in an accounting department. Accusing refs of fixing games because you don't like their calls would be like a colleague of mine accusing me of embezzlement because I denied them a purchase order. It is an outrageous accusation.

And anyone who makes it should be required to substantiate their charge with proof or face suspension. It is highly damaging to the NBA's image and it shouldn't be tolerated.

[eminence]

I'm fine with the NBA hitting Rudy with a suspension for that one if they want to (though it needs to be small, as they've let other players get away with it in the recent past - notably Luka).

But they also need to finish the Donaghy investigation (or really the FBI needs to finish it) - this is what you were always going to get when you squash something like that and let the adjacent guy just keep going. All the while cranking the gambling adds/association up to 11.

Letting Scott Foster have a job without finishing that investigation (and publicizing the results) is hurting the NBAs image.

[sp6r=underrated]

Refs have been pretty bad lately anyways and some of these techs are ridiculous

Way better than the average person is at his or her job.

Average person is terrible at their job or has a job that is useless. Not really saying much.

You need to set a baseline for acceptable referee performance. When you compare NBA refs to the average person or referees in other basketball leagues they look great.

The issue is fans irrationally want perfectly called games and are incapable of accepting that referees will miss calls just as NBA players miss 1 in 5 free throws.

[AEnigma]

Oh no not the image. Won’t someone please think about the image.

Your accounting department is subject to government audits. Who oversees league refereeing?

[sp6r=underrated]

I think all the gambling ads in the NBA are gross. This old post sums how I feel about it:

I'm going to table Maverick to make a larger point.

I watched a Sixers game prior to Thanksgiving. The sixers game has Betway, betmgm and crypto on the court. The Sixers are heavily committed to making sure their fans wrack up massive amounts of gambling debts. And the Sixers are in no way unique on this. I've seen other local broadcasts where the commentators encourage fans to bet on how many points will be scored in a quarter which is basically betting on a coin toss.

You watch NBA broadcasts now you're just hammered with gambling ads. Same with any national sports broadcast. I remember seeing one ad where they said we'll give you 100-200 (can't remember what) to sign up if you deposit $5. There is no way that is economically feasible unless a ton of people who open accounts are giving away 4-5 figures yearly.

I strongly suspect that in 20 yrs the NBA and other sports leagues will find this as embarrassing as the old school cigarette ads were at baseball stadiums.

We're going to have a lot of gambling addicts and I'd imagine there is going to be a huge backlash when that happens.

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2336599&hilit=betway#p109612564

That said I don't think the NBA's embrace of gambling risks refereeing. If anything it puts more pressure on the NBA to have a better called game because they don't want complaints from gamblers.

A subtext with some ref bashers, and I'm not attacking people in this thread, is that they are bettors. And a few are heavy bettors. And when they see a missed call they're bashing the ref for all the money they've lost rather than look in the mirror and think about whether betting $50 on a Monday Night, February basketball game is sensible.

All the while cranking the gambling adds/association up to 11.

[sp6r=underrated]

Oh no not the image. Won’t someone please think about the image.

Are you 12? Public perception is very important for major businesses.

Your accounting department is subject to government audits. Who oversees league refereeing?[/quote]

[quote="AEnigma"]After every game, referees should be audited. And if a referee fails to hit an acceptable error rate he/she should be fired.

The NBA already does this. And referees are let go. They don't think missed calls are acceptable.

[AEnigma]

Oh no not the image. Won’t someone please think about the image.

Are you 12?

Are you? Because you are the one with a childish naïveté on the subject and a blind commitment to “authority”.

Public perception is very important for major businesses.

Oh, okay, well, since you are so committed to substantiation, surely you must have some hard data on how much lack of suspensions is hurting the NBA’s profit.

Your accounting department is subject to government audits. Who oversees league refereeing?

After every game, referees should be audited. And if a referee fails to hit an acceptable error rate he/she should be fired.

The NBA already does this. And referees are let go. They don't think missed calls are acceptable.

Yeah if the only source of oversight for your business’s accounting is that business itself, then embezzlement would very much be in play — and that is without even touching on the obvious gambling incentives.

[sp6r=underrated]

Are you? Because you are the one with a childish naïveté on the subject and a blind commitment to “authority”.

Extreme cynics such as yourself are as naive as the overly pollyannaish. You see conspiracies where none exist because you can't accept that refs will miss calls just as players miss free throws or flipping a fair coin 3 times in a row will occasionally result in all heads.

Oh, okay, well, since you are so committed to substantiation, surely you must have some hard data on how much lack of suspensions is hurting the NBA’s profit.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brand

Good summary article on how branding and public perception of branding matters. Companies invest a ton of money in branding, advertising to ensure the public has a good impression of it. They hire legal and PR teams to defend their brand from accusations. They wouldn't do these things if it didn't matter.

Yeah if the only source of oversight for your business’s accounting is that business itself, then embezzlement would very much be in play — and that is without even touching on the obvious gambling incentives.

Why do you watch NBA games if you think ref fixing is an active problem?

[eminence]

Semi aside, but good god is the line of 'proof' for white collar crime insane.

Donaghy had an absurd hit rate (88% at one point, though I'm unsure on total), confessed to betting on games he was reffing, made people 100s of millions of dollars by passing on that info, and they still couldn't get him on fixing games. Because he wouldn't outright say he was fixing games.

[AEnigma]

Are you? Because you are the one with a childish naïveté on the subject and a blind commitment to “authority”.

Extreme cynics such as yourself are as naive as the overly pollyannaish. You see conspiracies where none exist because you can't accept that refs will miss calls just as players miss free throws or flipping a fair coin 3 times in a row will occasionally result in all heads.

Remarkable ability to make a strawman despite having your head in the sand. Why does “conspiracy” always need to be an empty and dismissive buzz word rather than something that happens pretty regularly and as a specific concept?

The reason NBA referees have a bad reputation is well known. It is not some unfair tragedy produced because of mere imperfection. Do you also go around telling people to stop complaining about bad doctors and lawyers because, well, they do better than an average person off the street would, and there are boards which can sanction them if they ever get truly bad!

When recognising reality looks “cynical”, you need to reassess what the word actually means.

Oh, okay, well, since you are so committed to substantiation, surely you must have some hard data on how much lack of suspensions is hurting the NBA’s profit.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brand

Good summary article on how branding and public perception of branding matters. Companies invest a ton of money in branding, advertising to ensure the public has a good impression of it. They hire legal and PR teams to defend their brand from accusations. They wouldn't do these things if it didn't matter.

Seeing absolutely nothing to support your stance that the NBA would be more successful if they suspended more players. You are trying to pretend this is about investment, when really it is just about you wanting certain optics enforced militantly. The NBA does not care at all about having a “brand” that is personally distasteful to scattered pearl-clutchers if it means profit for them anyway — and you already knew that, so why hide behind this façade.

Yeah if the only source of oversight for your business’s accounting is that business itself, then embezzlement would very much be in play — and that is without even touching on the obvious gambling incentives.

Why do you watch NBA games if you think ref fixing is an active problem?

What? Why do you if you are going to take this puritan approach that entertainment only justifies itself by being wholly neutral and decided exclusively by the quality of those participating in it. Hell, why consume any media. “You know, I was reading this book the other day, and it felt awfully scripted.”

[PooledSilver]

The NBA has to start suspending players who accuse refs of fixing games. Fines doesn't work. It is an outrageous accusation. Anytime a player makes the accusation they should be required to prove the charge. And if they can't you get a month suspension. NBA refs are very, very good at their jobs. Way better than the average person is at his or her job. And for sake of discussion if […] NBA refs are bad that doesn't justify accusing refs of fixing games. That is a completely different accusation. It implies watching the NBA is like watching the WWE. Players or coaches who make that accusation should be suspended if they can't support it.

Tough call between this and Jay Bilas’s “arrest court stormers” for most comically out of touch sports take of 2024.

I work in an accounting department. Accusing refs of fixing games because you don't like their calls would be like a colleague of mine accusing me of embezzlement because I denied them a purchase order. It is an outrageous accusation.

And anyone who makes it should be required to substantiate their charge with proof or face suspension. It is highly damaging to the NBA's image and it shouldn't be tolerated.

My sources tell me Gobert saying this hurt the NBAs image so much actually is going to lead to the cancellation of the current season where they will have to resume the season in universal studios in 5-6 months

You hate to see it

[PooledSilver]

Are you? Because you are the one with a childish naïveté on the subject and a blind commitment to “authority”.

Extreme cynics such as yourself are as naive as the overly pollyannaish. You see conspiracies where none exist because you can't accept that refs will miss calls just as players miss free throws or flipping a fair coin 3 times in a row will occasionally result in all heads.

Remarkable ability to make a strawman despite having your head in the sand. Why does “conspiracy” always need to be an empty and dismissive buzz word rather than something that happens pretty regularly and as a specific concept?

The reason NBA referees have a bad reputation is well known. It is not some unfair tragedy produced because of mere imperfection. Do you also go around telling people to stop complaining about bad doctors and lawyers because, well, they do better than an average person off the street would, and there are boards which can sanction them if they ever get truly bad!

When recognising reality looks “cynical”, you need to reassess what the word actually means.

Oh, okay, well, since you are so committed to substantiation, surely you must have some hard data on how much lack of suspensions is hurting the NBA’s profit.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brand

Good summary article on how branding and public perception of branding matters. Companies invest a ton of money in branding, advertising to ensure the public has a good impression of it. They hire legal and PR teams to defend their brand from accusations. They wouldn't do these things if it didn't matter.

Seeing absolutely nothing to support your stance that the NBA would be more successful if they suspended more players. You are trying to pretend this is about investment, when really it is just about you wanting certain optics enforced militantly. The NBA does not care at all about having a “brand” that is personally distasteful to scattered pearl-clutchers if it means profit for them anyway — and you already knew that, so why hide behind this façade.

Yeah if the only source of oversight for your business’s accounting is that business itself, then embezzlement would very much be in play — and that is without even touching on the obvious gambling incentives.

Why do you watch NBA games if you think ref fixing is an active problem?

What? Why do you if you are going to take this puritan approach that entertainment only justifies itself by being wholly neutral and decided exclusively by the quality of those participating in it. Hell, why consume any media. “You know, I was reading this book the other day, and it felt awfully scripted.”

This is as hilarious as someone thinking the refs are justified in giving techs when they make a ridiculous cal on and a player complains lol

[sp6r=underrated]

The reason NBA referees have a bad reputation is well known.

Yes,
1. Fans have unrealistic expectations for what error rate is attainable.
2. Fans are extremely biased towards their team
3. Some fans on bet on games and blame the refs for them losing money.
4. The tin foil hat crowd exists

Which basketball league has better refs than the NBA?

And for all the conspiracy theorists in this thread, either stop watching the NBA or stop complaining. After all you've figure out going in the refs are fixing games