How good Domantas Sabonis really is?

[boomershadow]

I think this is an example of someone having unusual strengths and weaknesses and people being very rigid on what is necessary to win at high level.
It was the same with Jokic, who though is so good that totally broke some analysts thinking process.
But I feel that those same people have not been challenging their own approach but just look at Nikola as an exception.

Same as it ever was.

[codydaze]

He's exceptionally strong physically and has very solid fundamentals.

He's on the longest double-double streak on a team which had Chris Webber, Vlade and Boogie on the roster.

Read on Twitter

Wasn’t he in during big deficit garbage time against the Nuggets to try and keep his record alive? And didn’t he get hurt for doing it?

No, he was pulled from the game because his face was bleeding and then came back into the game and got this 10th board.

[Woodsanity]

Still disgusted how he didnt get all star....

[zero rings]

Is Sabonis really that bad on defense? He is not shot blocker, he is just not, but he seems so strong and agile and has great stamina. I don't think he is exactly Kanter or Valančiūnas even. I get that C who does not block shots is a huge flaw, but it seems a bit overblown in this case, no?

no he isn't, this is mostly a matter of prejudice.
you can build a very good playoff defense with Sabonis the same way you can do it with Jokic.
But you need the right personnel to complement him.

Eh, I’m not sure about that. This isn’t a Jokic situation where all the stats say he’s a good defender, but people just assume he sucks because of the way he looks. Sabonis is very much a liability on that end and it shows up in his impact stats.

[BoogieTime]

Is Sabonis really that bad on defense? He is not shot blocker, he is just not, but he seems so strong and agile and has great stamina. I don't think he is exactly Kanter or Valančiūnas even. I get that C who does not block shots is a huge flaw, but it seems a bit overblown in this case, no?

no he isn't, this is mostly a matter of prejudice.
you can build a very good playoff defense with Sabonis the same way you can do it with Jokic.
But you need the right personnel to complement him.

Eh, I’m not sure about that. This isn’t a Jokic situation where all the stats say he’s a good defender, but people just assume he sucks because of the way he looks. Sabonis is very much a liability on that end and it shows up in his impact stats.

no it doesn't. his advanced stats are fine

[pillwenney]

I like this video that dropped yesterday:

Watch on YouTube

I think this is an example of someone having unusual strengths and weaknesses and people being very rigid on what is necessary to win at high level.
It was the same with Jokic, who though is so good that totally broke some analysts thinking process.
But I feel that those same people have not been challenging their own approach but just look at Nikola as an exception.
I think Domas can be the same at a much lower level, but he will need some good breaks to show it.
What I like the most that it's shown here is that this kind of player can enable up to four other players to be always in attack mode as he's the one making most of the decisions. And all these guys can play two man games with him or cut off ball with good chance of success.

is he Jokic? No, not even close, but he's a solid all NBA player.

This sums up a point I've been trying to make on here for a while. Jokic is an all-time talent, sure. But there are other all-time talents playing right now as well--ones that fit much more into the dogmatic conventions of "what you need to win a ring." There absolutely should be a bigger undercurrent of the basketball nerd hivemind that's questioning their preconceived notions about what you supposedly need to win a ring.

Yes, Jokic is an all-time offensive player, but citing that as the reason he's some kind of "exception to the rule" would imply that Denver rolled through the playoffs with a series of shootouts where they just outscored everyone, and that's not reality. It's also true that Denver had an excellent defense in their finals run last season, despite not just Jokic not being a conventional rim protector, but Murray and Porter generally being defensive targets. Part of that is of course their offensive excellence. Part of it is that our preconceived notions of what can make for a championship-level defense is at best outdated, and we all simply don't know as much as we think we do.

I like his ability to grab a rebound and run on fast break right away, I think its a real advantage some bigger players now can have. Domantas' handle seem lose, but it works, he is very comfotable with it. I do however think he is not the passer or playmaker as his stats suggest, he gets a lot of assists from hand off screen action, and his teammates are just good shooters in those situations. He is not Jokić, where the guy finds and creates stuff from scratch entirely. You can teach other guys what Domantas does, I feel. But you can't teach them what Jokić does, with him it is natural basketball genius.

To me, this dismissal misses a primary point of the video. It's not as much about the passing skill (though it often is that as well) as it is about the orchestration. He's deciding in the moment every time on those DHOs where the possession is going to go, adjusting screen angles, pulling the DHO back for a keeper drive to the hoop, reading where the help is coming at super advanced levels that really only one other C can do.

Perhaps my favorite part of this video is the part pointing out how Sabonis allows teammates to be in attack mode. There's a lot made of how hard it is to build around him, and this is partially true in some ways to be sure. It's also true that you're able to build a team with worse decision-makers (relatively speaking) because he takes that burden off of them. Fox is frankly not an elite floor general, but he is an elite attacker. Sabonis' presence allows him to play to his strengths. It's similar for Monk. He constantly starts scorers off with advantages due to his elite screening and decision-making so that the only decision-making they really need to do is pretty basic drive and kick stuff.

[Marrrcuss]

I dunno but AD better get some getback tonight!!! We are Sac's b*tch if we dont win this game, lol

[CIN-C-STAR]

He's become pretty underrated for some reason.
I guess cuz he hasn't done it in the playoffs, but he was injured in the postseason last year, and in Indy was just on a bad-to-mediocre team that was a clumsy fit of talent.
I think he's an excellent player, and I expect him to have an excellent playoffs if healthy. The one tjing he has going for him is he gets a playoff whistle all season for whatever reason, so there won't be much adjustment for him lol

[dhsilv2]

Is Sabonis really that bad on defense? He is not shot blocker, he is just not, but he seems so strong and agile and has great stamina. I don't think he is exactly Kanter or Valančiūnas even. I get that C who does not block shots is a huge flaw, but it seems a bit overblown in this case, no?

no he isn't, this is mostly a matter of prejudice.
you can build a very good playoff defense with Sabonis the same way you can do it with Jokic.
But you need the right personnel to complement him.

Eh, I’m not sure about that. This isn’t a Jokic situation where all the stats say he’s a good defender, but people just assume he sucks because of the way he looks. Sabonis is very much a liability on that end and it shows up in his impact stats.

Just looked at RAPTOR and LEBRON, both paint him as an ok to completely neutral defender year by year.

[pillwenney]

no he isn't, this is mostly a matter of prejudice.
you can build a very good playoff defense with Sabonis the same way you can do it with Jokic.
But you need the right personnel to complement him.

Eh, I’m not sure about that. This isn’t a Jokic situation where all the stats say he’s a good defender, but people just assume he sucks because of the way he looks. Sabonis is very much a liability on that end and it shows up in his impact stats.

Just looked at RAPTOR and LEBRON, both paint him as an ok to completely neutral defender year by year.

This checks out. He doesn't protect the rim much, but he's pretty good at defending other bigs, he's generally in the right places, moves his feet better than he's given credit for, along with his obviously elite defensive rebounding. Building an elite defense around that is a challenge, but it's not impossible.

[LessEyeTest]

He's exceptionally strong physically and has very solid fundamentals.

He's on the longest double-double streak on a team which had Chris Webber, Vlade and Boogie on the roster.

Read on Twitter

Wasn’t he in during big deficit garbage time against the Nuggets to try and keep his record alive? And didn’t he get hurt for doing it?

No, he was pulled from the game because his face was bleeding and then came back into the game and got this 10th board.

Yeah, so Sabonis re-entered a game where the score was 109-83 in favor of Denver with 6:40 left in the game. He got an assist, turnover and rebound in the following minute before leaving at 5:23.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/pbp/202402280DEN.html#q4

My point is why did he re-enter a game that was well beyond over just to stat pad and keep his streak alive?

[SNPA]

Wasn’t he in during big deficit garbage time against the Nuggets to try and keep his record alive? And didn’t he get hurt for doing it?

No, he was pulled from the game because his face was bleeding and then came back into the game and got this 10th board.

Yeah, so Sabonis re-entered a game where the score was 109-83 in favor of Denver with 6:40 left in the game. He got an assist, turnover and rebound in the following minute before leaving at 5:23.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/pbp/202402280DEN.html#q4

My point is why did he re-enter a game that was well beyond over just to stat pad and keep his streak alive?

Odd obsession.

[LessEyeTest]

No, he was pulled from the game because his face was bleeding and then came back into the game and got this 10th board.

Yeah, so Sabonis re-entered a game where the score was 109-83 in favor of Denver with 6:40 left in the game. He got an assist, turnover and rebound in the following minute before leaving at 5:23.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/pbp/202402280DEN.html#q4

My point is why did he re-enter a game that was well beyond over just to stat pad and keep his streak alive?

Odd obsession.

It isn't an "obsession" it was just bizarre and I happened to remember it as Denver steamrolled over Sacramento. That's the difference between an MVP caliber player like Jokic getting his numbers organically and another guy stat padding to keep their numbers alive. (No hate, 99% of players do it - Jokic is the exception)

[SNPA]

Yeah, so Sabonis re-entered a game where the score was 109-83 in favor of Denver with 6:40 left in the game. He got an assist, turnover and rebound in the following minute before leaving at 5:23.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/pbp/202402280DEN.html#q4

My point is why did he re-enter a game that was well beyond over just to stat pad and keep his streak alive?

Odd obsession.

It isn't an "obsession" it was just bizarre and I happened to remember it as Denver steamrolled over Sacramento. That's the difference between an MVP caliber player like Jokic getting his numbers organically and another guy stat padding to keep their numbers alive. (No hate, 99% of players do it - Jokic is the exception)

You think Sabonis put himself back into that game to get more stats?

[sackings916]

Wasn’t he in during big deficit garbage time against the Nuggets to try and keep his record alive? And didn’t he get hurt for doing it?

No, he was pulled from the game because his face was bleeding and then came back into the game and got this 10th board.

Yeah, so Sabonis re-entered a game where the score was 109-83 in favor of Denver with 6:40 left in the game. He got an assist, turnover and rebound in the following minute before leaving at 5:23.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/pbp/202402280DEN.html#q4

My point is why did he re-enter a game that was well beyond over just to stat pad and keep his streak alive?

Even if this were the case, which we don’t know for sure, Mike Brown has always kept his starters in late in blowouts both ways, does it really matter? Sabonis is a proven double double guy,whether it’s for 60 straight games or 59 out of 60 games.

[sackings916]

Is Sabonis really that bad on defense? He is not shot blocker, he is just not, but he seems so strong and agile and has great stamina. I don't think he is exactly Kanter or Valančiūnas even. I get that C who does not block shots is a huge flaw, but it seems a bit overblown in this case, no?

no he isn't, this is mostly a matter of prejudice.
you can build a very good playoff defense with Sabonis the same way you can do it with Jokic.
But you need the right personnel to complement him.

Eh, I’m not sure about that. This isn’t a Jokic situation where all the stats say he’s a good defender, but people just assume he sucks because of the way he looks. Sabonis is very much a liability on that end and it shows up in his impact stats.

Which metric paints him as a bad defender? Not being sarcastic, I’m curious because everything I’ve seen shows him at about average or above average.

[Shock Defeat]

He needs to stop getting pwned by Looney or else is reputation is going to be in the doo doo

[Ryoga Hibiki]

Yeah, so Sabonis re-entered a game where the score was 109-83 in favor of Denver with 6:40 left in the game. He got an assist, turnover and rebound in the following minute before leaving at 5:23.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/pbp/202402280DEN.html#q4

My point is why did he re-enter a game that was well beyond over just to stat pad and keep his streak alive?

Odd obsession.

It isn't an "obsession" it was just bizarre and I happened to remember it as Denver steamrolled over Sacramento. That's the difference between an MVP caliber player like Jokic getting his numbers organically and another guy stat padding to keep their numbers alive. (No hate, 99% of players do it - Jokic is the exception)

this happens only when guys get attached to streaks or round numbers like triple doubles.
averages are a bit more legit

[dk1115]

Sabonis, imo, is probably the third or fourth best center in the NBA behind Jokic, Embiid and Towns. Next season he'll likely be behind Wemby too but that's to be seen.

[dk1115]

No, he was pulled from the game because his face was bleeding and then came back into the game and got this 10th board.

Yeah, so Sabonis re-entered a game where the score was 109-83 in favor of Denver with 6:40 left in the game. He got an assist, turnover and rebound in the following minute before leaving at 5:23.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/pbp/202402280DEN.html#q4

My point is why did he re-enter a game that was well beyond over just to stat pad and keep his streak alive?

Even if this were the case, which we don’t know for sure, Mike Brown has always kept his starters in late in blowouts both ways, does it really matter? Sabonis is a proven double double guy,whether it’s for 60 straight games or 59 out of 60 games.

I honestly don't know what the standard is anymore for garbage time. So even 10 years ago, if a team had a 20 point lead at the beginning of the quarter, you really wouldn't see any starters in the game, but 20 points these days just feels like 10. I wouldn't be comfortable putting in my 3rd string players til 3 minutes left in the game with a 20 point lead.