How good Domantas Sabonis really is?

[BoogieTime]

Sabonis, imo, is probably the third or fourth best center in the NBA behind Jokic, Embiid and Towns. Next season he'll likely be behind Wemby too but that's to be seen.

Why would you put Towns ahead of him?

Sabonis is 1st in the league in triple-doubles, double-doubles, rebounds, and rebounds per game. 5th in assists, assists per game, win shares, and VORP. 13th in TS%. 6th in PER and box +/-.

All those numbers are better than Towns’s numbers, and Towns has flaws that are just as big as Sabonis’s, if not bigger.

I was actually kind of close on those two. And I actually give Sabonis the edge. But I think Karl Anthony Towns can probably play a lot better than he has been this year. Those BPM numbers have been crazy low since Gobert joined the team and without watching TWolves games that much, I can really only speculate.

Gobert is the reason for Timberwolves turnaround, not empty calorie KAT

[BoogieTime]

Is Sabonis really that bad on defense? He is not shot blocker, he is just not, but he seems so strong and agile and has great stamina. I don't think he is exactly Kanter or Valančiūnas even. I get that C who does not block shots is a huge flaw, but it seems a bit overblown in this case, no?

I always argued that he is better at 4 defensively than 5. When he was the 5 defensively for the Pacers, no one feared him at all. It was a layup line at the basket.

At 4 though? He's smart enough to get into the position he needs to be in. Not quick enough to defend some 4s, but I'll take that disadvantage over not having anyone protect the basket at all.

That is why its so tough to think of a perfect frontcourt mate to pair with Sabonis. On paper, it should have been Myles Turner, but even that didn't work.

? A PF shotblocker, not another center like Turner. Domas is fine at 5

[BoogieTime]

Hes been a top 3 center since hes been in Sactown behind Jokic and Embiid..............but mainly for the Rs

his weaknesses get exploited bad in playoff ball. Hes a horrific paint defender, a bad rim protector and he cant shoot so teams can sag off him

Trey Lyles gave Kings better minutes than Sabonis against Warriors. He was a liability out there w/ his defense and Looney not guarding him at all on the perimeter and only when he was posting up to which he got shut down

He can shoot. He’s developed a good three point shot and has shot mid range decently in his career. Just lacks confidence, and you don’t need to overemphasize the defense

It was one series, a blip in a career

[BoogieTime]

he should be the 3rd best player on a contending team

instead he's been the #1 or #2 guy on teams that have been regular first round exits.

Yep, that's his ideal role. He's more Aaron Gordon than Nikola Jokic in terms of impact even if his stats are closer to Jokic. Once he's in his proper role, I think Sacramento will be more than 1st round fodder and/or perpetual lottery team.

In what world?

What were the Kings before/after him

[Ryoga Hibiki]

Hes been a top 3 center since hes been in Sactown behind Jokic and Embiid..............but mainly for the Rs

his weaknesses get exploited bad in playoff ball. Hes a horrific paint defender, a bad rim protector and he cant shoot so teams can sag off him

Trey Lyles gave Kings better minutes than Sabonis against Warriors. He was a liability out there w/ his defense and Looney not guarding him at all on the perimeter and only when he was posting up to which he got shut down

I think the idea that star players that look great in the RS don't hold value in the playoffs is vastly overrated.
You just don't have the sample size to say that.

[Ryoga Hibiki]

I always argued that he is better at 4 defensively than 5. When he was the 5 defensively for the Pacers, no one feared him at all. It was a layup line at the basket.

At 4 though? He's smart enough to get into the position he needs to be in. Not quick enough to defend some 4s, but I'll take that disadvantage over not having anyone protect the basket at all.

That is why its so tough to think of a perfect frontcourt mate to pair with Sabonis. On paper, it should have been Myles Turner, but even that didn't work.

Take the Nuggets playbook and put lengths in the wings + strong POA defense.
Domas doesn't have same crazy hands and reflexes Jokic, not the same wingspan has but he's more mobile and just as physical.
The fact that he can take a lot of the PG duties facilitates this process.

[UcanUwill]

I agree he's nowhere near Jokic but is a solid player. But I also would have kept Tyrese Haliburton over him if I was the Kings. I don't think Sabonis was worth that much, probably could have had him for a package with De'Aaron Fox instead. Hali+Sabonis is getting somewhere, although the defense might be suspect that way, it's already suspect with Fox too, but the offensive ceiling is higher with Tyrese.

No, Pacers wouldn’t have moved him for Fox who had questionable value at the time

Some claimed Fox is a bad contract, remember that? Not like it ever was true, but it was the narrative. I think Kings knew Haliburton is better asset to have, I mean duh, everyone knew that, but Kings also knew that they do not fit with each other and never would become best versions of themselves together, and sometimes you need to give up more valuable asset to get good value back, and Kings got good value back. It is one of those trades where both teams won and would do it the second time, but some fans still act like Kings were just hosed completely. I get Haliburton is fantastic and in a vacuum I take him over Sabonis every time, but context is everything here.

Atlanta is in similar position right now. They need to give up either Murray or Young. They could give up Murray, but if they give up Young, they will get more from him, simple as that.

[evilution]

Wasn’t he in during big deficit garbage time against the Nuggets to try and keep his record alive? And didn’t he get hurt for doing it?

No, he was pulled from the game because his face was bleeding and then came back into the game and got this 10th board.

Yeah, so Sabonis re-entered a game where the score was 109-83 in favor of Denver with 6:40 left in the game. He got an assist, turnover and rebound in the following minute before leaving at 5:23.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/pbp/202402280DEN.html#q4

My point is why did he re-enter a game that was well beyond over just to stat pad and keep his streak alive?

Alex Len started the fourth quarter, because he was the only backup center available that day.
Alex Len has no conditioning to go a whole quarter, garbage time or not.
Sabonis checked in to give Alex Len a breather and get some actual practice time with backup guys. Checked out after getting hit bloody.
There, mystery solved.
Was he or someone on the team willing to keep his streak going? Yeah, maybe. Is something wrong with that? Where are your comments about LeBron, Luka, SGA, Curry, and others, who definitely came back to the floor in meaningless games/minutes to keep some numbers up? Are they worse players because of that?
Also, Jamal Murray was still on the floor, which stats was he padding there?

[evilution]

I agree he's nowhere near Jokic but is a solid player. But I also would have kept Tyrese Haliburton over him if I was the Kings. I don't think Sabonis was worth that much, probably could have had him for a package with De'Aaron Fox instead. Hali+Sabonis is getting somewhere, although the defense might be suspect that way, it's already suspect with Fox too, but the offensive ceiling is higher with Tyrese.

Nowhere near Jokic describes pretty much all NBA players though. Maybe 5-10 best would be an exception. “Solid“ is an understatement for someone who should be making All-NBA second year in a row, and is in the middle of top10 in statistical MVP models.

Sabonis wasn't available for Fox at that time, it was discussed and denied by sources a zillion times. Also, Kings dumped some bad contracts and got Trey Lyles in the same trade, preparing for a complete roster overhaul during off-season.

Hali is even worse than Fox on defense - at least Fox has another gear he can turn on and become a good defender for a limited time.

[Woodsanity]

he should be the 3rd best player on a contending team

instead he's been the #1 or #2 guy on teams that have been regular first round exits.

You should be more understanding and give Sabonis more leeway. He still didn't choke 6 playoffs in a row like Embiid yet....

[LessEyeTest]

No, he was pulled from the game because his face was bleeding and then came back into the game and got this 10th board.

Yeah, so Sabonis re-entered a game where the score was 109-83 in favor of Denver with 6:40 left in the game. He got an assist, turnover and rebound in the following minute before leaving at 5:23.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/pbp/202402280DEN.html#q4

My point is why did he re-enter a game that was well beyond over just to stat pad and keep his streak alive?

Alex Len started the fourth quarter, because he was the only backup center available that day.
Alex Len has no conditioning to go a whole quarter, garbage time or not.
Sabonis checked in to give Alex Len a breather and get some actual practice time with backup guys. Checked out after getting hit bloody.
There, mystery solved.
Was he or someone on the team willing to keep his streak going? Yeah, maybe. Is something wrong with that? Where are your comments about LeBron, Luka, SGA, Curry, and others, who definitely came back to the floor in meaningless games/minutes to keep some numbers up? Are they worse players because of that?
Also, Jamal Murray was still on the floor, which stats was he padding there?

To give Alex Len a breather? Why not play more than just the 80 seconds it took to grab a rebound and then instantly be taken out?
The hoops some will jump through to deny the stat padding.

[sackings916]

Yeah, so Sabonis re-entered a game where the score was 109-83 in favor of Denver with 6:40 left in the game. He got an assist, turnover and rebound in the following minute before leaving at 5:23.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/pbp/202402280DEN.html#q4

My point is why did he re-enter a game that was well beyond over just to stat pad and keep his streak alive?

Alex Len started the fourth quarter, because he was the only backup center available that day.
Alex Len has no conditioning to go a whole quarter, garbage time or not.
Sabonis checked in to give Alex Len a breather and get some actual practice time with backup guys. Checked out after getting hit bloody.
There, mystery solved.
Was he or someone on the team willing to keep his streak going? Yeah, maybe. Is something wrong with that? Where are your comments about LeBron, Luka, SGA, Curry, and others, who definitely came back to the floor in meaningless games/minutes to keep some numbers up? Are they worse players because of that?
Also, Jamal Murray was still on the floor, which stats was he padding there?

To give Alex Len a breather? Why not play more than just the 80 seconds it took to grab a rebound and then instantly be taken out?
The hoops some will jump through to deny the stat padding.

What is the argument? Sabonis played 1 minute in the 4th in a blowout loss to get an extra rebound which kept his double double streak alive, so therefore he is a stat padder and his 20,13,8 averages on the season are not legitimate?

[LessEyeTest]

Alex Len started the fourth quarter, because he was the only backup center available that day.
Alex Len has no conditioning to go a whole quarter, garbage time or not.
Sabonis checked in to give Alex Len a breather and get some actual practice time with backup guys. Checked out after getting hit bloody.
There, mystery solved.
Was he or someone on the team willing to keep his streak going? Yeah, maybe. Is something wrong with that? Where are your comments about LeBron, Luka, SGA, Curry, and others, who definitely came back to the floor in meaningless games/minutes to keep some numbers up? Are they worse players because of that?
Also, Jamal Murray was still on the floor, which stats was he padding there?

To give Alex Len a breather? Why not play more than just the 80 seconds it took to grab a rebound and then instantly be taken out?
The hoops some will jump through to deny the stat padding.

What is the argument? Sabonis played 1 minute in the 4th in a blowout loss to get an extra rebound which kept his double double streak alive, so therefore he is a stat padder and his 20,13,8 averages on the season are not legitimate?

Yes, exactly that. SGA just received backlash for fouling and scoring another basket to keep his 30 point streak alive.

So why is Sabonis not receiving backlash for getting an artificial double double that may help his narrative?

[Kabaum]

Hes been a top 3 center since hes been in Sactown behind Jokic and Embiid..............but mainly for the Rs

his weaknesses get exploited bad in playoff ball. Hes a horrific paint defender, a bad rim protector and he cant shoot so teams can sag off him

Trey Lyles gave Kings better minutes than Sabonis against Warriors. He was a liability out there w/ his defense and Looney not guarding him at all on the perimeter and only when he was posting up to which he got shut down

He can shoot. He’s developed a good three point shot and has shot mid range decently in his career. Just lacks confidence, and you don’t need to overemphasize the defense

It was one series, a blip in a career

Yup, he also had a fractured thumb against the Warriors that limited his shooting.

[sackings916]

To give Alex Len a breather? Why not play more than just the 80 seconds it took to grab a rebound and then instantly be taken out?
The hoops some will jump through to deny the stat padding.

What is the argument? Sabonis played 1 minute in the 4th in a blowout loss to get an extra rebound which kept his double double streak alive, so therefore he is a stat padder and his 20,13,8 averages on the season are not legitimate?

Yes, exactly that. SGA just received backlash for fouling and scoring another basket to keep his 30 point streak alive.

So why is Sabonis not receiving backlash for getting an artificial double double that may help his narrative?

We all have our own logic I guess. To me SGA scoring another basket to keep the 30pt streak alive does not take away the fact that he is an all NBA player and an elite scorer. Same logic applies to Sabonis here.

[TroubleS0me]

he should be the 3rd best player on a contending team

instead he's been the #1 or #2 guy on teams that have been regular first round exits.

You should be more understanding and give Sabonis more leeway. He still didn't choke 6 playoffs in a row like Embiid yet....

wow you really went there but its true

[SeanieWard]

Elite. All NBA for a reason. The reason people were down on him is because Draymond, an all time great defender, and Looney played great defense on him in the playoff series last season and it did make him look bad. But we've seen great players like Harden, Embiid and others underperform in the playoffs but we still consider them elite players. Sabonis is really good player and should be all NBA again

[drekwins]

I like this video that dropped yesterday:

Watch on YouTube

I think this is an example of someone having unusual strengths and weaknesses and people being very rigid on what is necessary to win at high level.
It was the same with Jokic, who though is so good that totally broke some analysts thinking process.
But I feel that those same people have not been challenging their own approach but just look at Nikola as an exception.
I think Domas can be the same at a much lower level, but he will need some good breaks to show it.
What I like the most that it's shown here is that this kind of player can enable up to four other players to be always in attack mode as he's the one making most of the decisions. And all these guys can play two man games with him or cut off ball with good chance of success.

is he Jokic? No, not even close, but he's a solid all NBA player.

I think it's kind of simple

He's in Sacramento. The East Coast bias is real. I'm on the East Coast and most people that work early only see guys like Kawhi, SGA and Sabonis/Fox, etc. play a few times a year. Curry. LeBron and Jokic (and their teams) get that 10:30pm time-slots 99% of the time. Don't get me wrong, we see highlights but he's not a flashy athlete so it gets lost a little in the shuffle... if he even makes the highlight. If he were in NY, Boston, Chicago or Miami, he would be a big-time star.

Now, mind you, A LOT of East Coasters, including basketball people, took years to realize how good Jokic is. Sabots is a poor mans Jokic, so it's not really surprising that he is also going under-the-radar.

To those thaat watch regularly, they know how impactful he is. Not many outside of Sacramento watch the Kings regularly.

[Ryoga Hibiki]

To those thaat watch regularly, they know how impactful he is. Not many outside of Sacramento watch the Kings regularly.

I am not so sure, I am not talking about SAS, Perkins or clowns like that.
There are tons of analysts who clearly watch a lot of game and understand basketball who share this view.
At 10:40 of the video the guy mentions how Domas's not great as a post scorer, and it's true. But so many people seem to stop there, and put together
* not a great rim protector
* not a great post scorer
* not a great shooter
and come out with the (asinine, in my view) take "he's a 82 player and not a 16 one, easy to scheme against, maybe 50th best playoff player"
He wasn't good against the Warriors and now those people now made up their mind.

I am not a spring chicken and I've seen this several times. I remember the comments about Pau Gasol being too skinny to make it in the NBA, for instance.
People think they have figured out the game, they think they know what works and what doesn't and they judge everything using known archetypes.
The Jokics or the Currys come up from time to time and force them to eat crow. Domas is not that good, but because of that those people are not recognizing the new trends.

[Patches Perry]

He is awesome. If the Thunder didn't turn him into SGA eventually, I'd really be bummed about OKC trading him.