Top 10 best basketball players ever

[PooledSilver]

Most people generally are going to have pretty similar lists of top 10 "greatest" and top 10 "best" players. Greatest leans more into career and best leans more into peak but there is still a lot of overlap there.

But since you're saying not relative to peers you want something different?

I meant

Greatest = best amongst your peers

Best = better at basketball

Demar isn’t a greater basketball player than, let’s say Sam Jones, but he’s obviously better at basketball

Not obvious to me. IF you mean he takes more advantage of rules, refereeing, and training techniques that weren't available in the 1960s, sure. IF you mean a better understanding, consistency of effort, and skill set relative to the rules and world of their time, Sam Jones was probably the better player.

If what you want to ask is who would be the top 10 players in the world if everyone came to today's game with a time machine then yeah, you would get a list that's greatly loaded with the 10 best players of the last 10 years with maybe a couple of the greatest of their time sneaking onto the list like Jordan.

Demar derozan would be better in the 1960s than Sam jones would be if you have him a week and a few scrimmages to adjust. That’s like, the least controversial take ever

Basketball is positional, you can maybe argue that big play is much less skill based in comparison to guard play and you can get by more on physical tools in comparison, but guard play has evolved an extreme amount every year. 70 years from now I’m sure there will be multiple players who shoot better than curry did and finish better than bron, but even then you can argue it’s leveled off more as the league isn’t in its first 10-15 years.

[70sFan]

Not what those words mean, no. Many people like to pretend they are substitutes for one another, but the meanings are distinct.

Unless someone describes greatness in terms of accolades etc. I don't see the distinction. The best players are the ones who dominated the field the most and these are also the greatest ones.

Unless someone decides that the best players are only the ones who play in the most modern era, but I don't think anyone does that.

This is at best naïve. A lot of people claim to separate the two, but few principally do. If a player won absolutely no titles, it may still be possible to be commonly perceived as the greatest player ever, but they would need to be much more apparently clear of any other player’s quality of play to maintain the same degree of support as if they had won several.

Lebron is… maybe six opponent or teammate shots away from having one ring. Call it six shots and an ankle injury to get to zero rings. Do you think he would have anywhere near the support for greatest player if that were the case? Sure, some people may ignore it. Maybe you feel you would. But reducing his ring count affects his “greatness” in a way that does not at all affect his quality of play.

Look at public perception of players like Hakeem and Garnett. Outstanding quality of play, but penalised for a relative lack of titles and accolades by virtue of losing most of their primes to bad teams. On the other end, if Bill Russell lost every close series he ever played with no change in his own play, how many people are keeping him in their top four? If Jordan loses to the Pacers or Jazz in 1998, is he treated as immortal? Does Shaq get consistently locked into top three to five peak discussions if the Trail Blazers do not have a fourth quarter meltdown? The public largely puts Kobe in their top five; are they doing that with 2001 and 2009 as his only titles?

Best is about quality, greatness is about perception of legacy. People like to pretend they are functionally identical, I guess in a way to make themselves feel like they are being “objective”, but practice almost always suggests otherwise. And we can see that when people are pressed to back up their stances with film analysis. This question is probably too ambitious for this forum in that sense, but I would be hard pressed to say someone like Mikan is close to someone Jokic in quality of play to anywhere near the extent that Mikan has a certain “greatness” from what he accomplished.

Maybe you are right, maybe it's just me doing it the way I described. I don't have any problem with calling KG or Hakeem GOAT candidates. I have them both really high on my list. I guess it's impossible to ignore results and we will always look towards them, but I think I got aware of such biases after many years of these discussions and they don't influence me the same way it used to.

[70sFan]

I meant

Greatest = best amongst your peers

Best = better at basketball

Demar isn’t a greater basketball player than, let’s say Sam Jones, but he’s obviously better at basketball

Not obvious to me. IF you mean he takes more advantage of rules, refereeing, and training techniques that weren't available in the 1960s, sure. IF you mean a better understanding, consistency of effort, and skill set relative to the rules and world of their time, Sam Jones was probably the better player.

If what you want to ask is who would be the top 10 players in the world if everyone came to today's game with a time machine then yeah, you would get a list that's greatly loaded with the 10 best players of the last 10 years with maybe a couple of the greatest of their time sneaking onto the list like Jordan.

Demar derozan would be better in the 1960s than Sam jones would be if you have him a week and a few scrimmages to adjust. That’s like, the least controversial take ever

You can believe that if you want.

[PooledSilver]

Not obvious to me. IF you mean he takes more advantage of rules, refereeing, and training techniques that weren't available in the 1960s, sure. IF you mean a better understanding, consistency of effort, and skill set relative to the rules and world of their time, Sam Jones was probably the better player.

If what you want to ask is who would be the top 10 players in the world if everyone came to today's game with a time machine then yeah, you would get a list that's greatly loaded with the 10 best players of the last 10 years with maybe a couple of the greatest of their time sneaking onto the list like Jordan.

Demar derozan would be better in the 1960s than Sam jones would be if you have him a week and a few scrimmages to adjust. That’s like, the least controversial take ever

You can believe that if you want.

Oh wow this is just unreal

Edit: after pulling some Sam jones tape this is some very special level of cope going on here

[Narigo]

Jordan
LeBron
Kareem
Russell
Wilt
Duncan
Shaq
Hakeem
Magic
Oscar

[70sFan]

Demar derozan would be better in the 1960s than Sam jones would be if you have him a week and a few scrimmages to adjust. That’s like, the least controversial take ever

You can believe that if you want.

Oh wow this is just unreal

Edit: after pulling some Sam jones tape this is some very special level of cope going on here

So it's the first time you have ever seen Sam Jones (actually, you posted about him before watching at all) and you feel qualified to judge others opinions about this matter? As I said, believe in whatever you want.

[PooledSilver]

You can believe that if you want.

Oh wow this is just unreal

Edit: after pulling some Sam jones tape this is some very special level of cope going on here

So it's the first time you have ever seen Sam Jones (actually, you posted about him before watching at all) and you feel qualified to judge others opinions about this matter? As I said, believe in whatever you want.

No, I just pulled it up to refresh my memory from watching from film of him. Cameron Thomas of north ridge might be his next level basketball comp

[70sFan]

Oh wow this is just unreal

Edit: after pulling some Sam jones tape this is some very special level of cope going on here

So it's the first time you have ever seen Sam Jones (actually, you posted about him before watching at all) and you feel qualified to judge others opinions about this matter? As I said, believe in whatever you want.

No, I just pulled it up to refresh my memory from watching from film of him. Cameron Thomas of north ridge might be his next level basketball comp

Good for you.

[PooledSilver]

So it's the first time you have ever seen Sam Jones (actually, you posted about him before watching at all) and you feel qualified to judge others opinions about this matter? As I said, believe in whatever you want.

No, I just pulled it up to refresh my memory from watching from film of him. Cameron Thomas of north ridge might be his next level basketball comp

Good for you.

Hey man, don’t disrespect cameron

[Samurai]

Let me rephrase this:

Is Bob Cousy one of the greatest nba players ever? Of course

Would bob cousy get destroyed by multiple players in high school today? Of course

It takes an extreme amount of cope to watch black and white film and think the level of basketball skill is the same and it’s just “different”

Totally agree. But Cousy today is 95 (turns 96 this August) so I also believe multiple middle school players would destroy him. Pretty much anyone over 80 would lose to most high school players.

[PooledSilver]

Let me rephrase this:

Is Bob Cousy one of the greatest nba players ever? Of course

Would bob cousy get destroyed by multiple players in high school today? Of course

It takes an extreme amount of cope to watch black and white film and think the level of basketball skill is the same and it’s just “different”

Totally agree. But Cousy today is 95 (turns 96 this August) so I also believe multiple middle school players would destroy him. Pretty much anyone over 80 would lose to most high school players.

He’d lose when he’s 25 too

Same energy as thinking George mikan would beat cooper flagg

[Dutchball97]

Demar derozan would be better in the 1960s than Sam jones would be if you have him a week and a few scrimmages to adjust. That’s like, the least controversial take ever

You can believe that if you want.

Oh wow this is just unreal

Edit: after pulling some Sam jones tape this is some very special level of cope going on here

Can you explain then what you're seeing in this footage of Sam Jones that you think is obviously below the level of high schoolers in 2024?

[PooledSilver]

You can believe that if you want.

Oh wow this is just unreal

Edit: after pulling some Sam jones tape this is some very special level of cope going on here

Can you explain then what you're seeing in this footage of Sam Jones that you think is obviously below the level of high schoolers in 2024?

1. Cousy. Cousy is absolutely below the level of elite highschool players 70 years later it’s ridiculous to think otherwise

2. Are y’all sure y’all aren’t just getting hyped whenever a 60s player looks like a real basketball player every 10 or so possessions because it stands out so much? Like damn what’s the average age on here is everyone just an unc

[Dutchball97]

Oh wow this is just unreal

Edit: after pulling some Sam jones tape this is some very special level of cope going on here

Can you explain then what you're seeing in this footage of Sam Jones that you think is obviously below the level of high schoolers in 2024?

1. Cousy. Cousy is absolutely below the level of elite highschool players 70 years later it’s ridiculous to think otherwise

2. Are y’all sure y’all aren’t just getting hyped whenever a 60s player looks like a real basketball player every 10 or so possessions because it stands out so much? Like damn what’s the average age on here is everyone just an unc

So the answer is no, you can't explain it?

[OhayoKD]

Can you explain then what you're seeing in this footage of Sam Jones that you think is obviously below the level of high schoolers in 2024?

1. Cousy. Cousy is absolutely below the level of elite highschool players 70 years later it’s ridiculous to think otherwise

2. Are y’all sure y’all aren’t just getting hyped whenever a 60s player looks like a real basketball player every 10 or so possessions because it stands out so much? Like damn what’s the average age on here is everyone just an unc

So the answer is no, you can't explain it?

biggest gap is probably fluidity of movement. rules play a role but also I think they were more rigid physically

[PooledSilver]

Can you explain then what you're seeing in this footage of Sam Jones that you think is obviously below the level of high schoolers in 2024?

1. Cousy. Cousy is absolutely below the level of elite highschool players 70 years later it’s ridiculous to think otherwise

2. Are y’all sure y’all aren’t just getting hyped whenever a 60s player looks like a real basketball player every 10 or so possessions because it stands out so much? Like damn what’s the average age on here is everyone just an unc

So the answer is no, you can't explain it?

It seems that it’s mostly that you can’t read by putting words in my mouth

I don’t need to explain why he doesn’t look as impressive like I don’t need to explain why a middle school player in shanghai’s tape doesn’t look as impressive as a top 10 high schooler in the country, he’s clearly not as good in basketball even with the rules, his jumpshot looks awkward, half of his tape are open midrange catch and shoot jump shots or open layups, and he does some moves that are literally just normal basketball that gets guys out of their seats because you got guys airballing layups with two hands because bill russell stared at them menacingly

It’s some ridiculous level of cope and delusion to think he’s as good as derozan in a vacuum, but I guess this is more of a stats forum anyway

[PooledSilver]

1. Cousy. Cousy is absolutely below the level of elite highschool players 70 years later it’s ridiculous to think otherwise

2. Are y’all sure y’all aren’t just getting hyped whenever a 60s player looks like a real basketball player every 10 or so possessions because it stands out so much? Like damn what’s the average age on here is everyone just an unc

So the answer is no, you can't explain it?

biggest gap is probably fluidity of movement

One of the gaps yes

I bet people on here think everyone is magically a million times better at shooting in the midrange too because percentages are up

[Dutchball97]

1. Cousy. Cousy is absolutely below the level of elite highschool players 70 years later it’s ridiculous to think otherwise

2. Are y’all sure y’all aren’t just getting hyped whenever a 60s player looks like a real basketball player every 10 or so possessions because it stands out so much? Like damn what’s the average age on here is everyone just an unc

So the answer is no, you can't explain it?

It seems that it’s mostly that you can’t read by putting words in my mouth

I don’t need to explain why he doesn’t look as impressive like I don’t need to explain why a middle school player in shanghai’s tape doesn’t look as impressive as a top 10 high schooler in the country, he’s clearly not as good in basketball even with the rules, his jumpshot looks awkward, half of his tape are open midrange catch and shoot jump shots or open layups, and he does some moves that are literally just normal basketball that gets guys out of their seats because you got guys airballing layups with two hands because bill russell stared at them menacingly

It’s some ridiculous level of cope and delusion to think he’s as good as derozan in a vacuum, but I guess this is more of a stats forum anyway

Tell us how you really feel.

[PooledSilver]

So the answer is no, you can't explain it?

It seems that it’s mostly that you can’t read by putting words in my mouth

I don’t need to explain why he doesn’t look as impressive like I don’t need to explain why a middle school player in shanghai’s tape doesn’t look as impressive as a top 10 high schooler in the country, he’s clearly not as good in basketball even with the rules, his jumpshot looks awkward, half of his tape are open midrange catch and shoot jump shots or open layups, and he does some moves that are literally just normal basketball that gets guys out of their seats because you got guys airballing layups with two hands because bill russell stared at them menacingly

It’s some ridiculous level of cope and delusion to think he’s as good as derozan in a vacuum, but I guess this is more of a stats forum anyway

Tell us how you really feel.

You are getting all sensitive because someone said the 90 year old dude you watched 2 games of isn’t on the same level as guys 60 years later that’s hilarious

Don’t worry fella the bingo hall is on your left

[SNPA]

Let me rephrase this:

Is Bob Cousy one of the greatest nba players ever? Of course

Would bob cousy get destroyed by multiple players in high school today? Of course

It takes an extreme amount of cope to watch black and white film and think the level of basketball skill is the same and it’s just “different”

Ugh. This again.

Make current NBA player play by the same rules as Cousy (dribbling specifically) and watch it in black and white. It won’t look nearly as far apart as you think.