PG: Deuce McBrunson School Curry's Kids

[thebuzzardman]

so you're saying he should've won more with guys like nate robinson, cj watson, dj augustine, kirk hinrich? you can't be serious man. what coach is taking those guys to the ecf?

That's a disingenuous question

I'm not saying any of those teams should have gone to the ecf. I'm saying they shouldn't have

A good coach can win series where his teams have talent deficiencies. The Heat win series they shouldn't quite a bit, that's how you can tell Spoelstra is a good coach. Thibs doesn't have any of those wins

Again, he wins when he should win and loses when he should lose. A good coach can win when he should lose.

Spolestra is the best coach in the NBA and also a part of a machine of a system franchise. If Thibs being that or better is your minimum standard, good luck with that.

[nedleeds]

Feels like the Walt Frazier championship teams

W T F.



Some of you are reaching complete derangement.

[3toheadmelo]

so you're saying he should've won more with guys like nate robinson, cj watson, dj augustine, kirk hinrich? you can't be serious man. what coach is taking those guys to the ecf?

That's a disingenuous question

I'm not saying any of those teams should have gone to the ecf. I'm saying they shouldn't have

A good coach can win series where his teams have talent deficiencies. The Heat win series they shouldn't quite a bit, that's how you can tell Spoelstra is a good coach. Thibs doesn't have any of those wins

Again, he wins when he should win and loses when he should lose. A good coach can win when he should lose.

Spolestra is the best coach in the NBA and also a part of a machine of a system franchise. If Thibs being that or better is your minimum standard, good luck with that.

yep and spo never had to face a lebron superteam multiple times in the post season like thibs with mid talent.

[Capn'O]

Right. It's hard to play above your talent level in the playoffs. Especially by the 2nd round you can get countered/scooped by other excellent coaches.

People get so mad when I say Thibs is mediocre and then y'all make arguments like this

Like, if Thibs can't get his teams to play above their talent levels and excellent coaches can, then by definition Thibs isn't an "excellent" coach

I don't know why that's such a scandalous thing to say.

No. Other excellent coaches beat him in the playoffs with a superior talent deck.

We weren't supposed to beat Cleveland last season and we hosed them. Against a great coach like Spo _WHO HAD MORE TALENT_ with Randle hobbled coaching wasn't going to make up the difference.

[Deeeez Knicks]

thibs aint getting fired anytime soon and everyone knows it. this is all pointless.

I don't think anyone disagrees with that. The POBO is one of his good friends and the best player loves him. And he doesn't deserve to be fired either (right now). I think this playoffs will be important for him but even an early round playoff loss probably doesn't hurt him too much either.

I don't think people should overreact to IGT comments...I don't know about the rest of you and how you watch games but its difficult to be a fan and watch the game in the basement not trying to make too much noise to wake up the kids. So I angrily write to you bums

I watch a player go down with an injury or hurt and they aren't taken out I get upset

i myself am never hyperbolic in game threads. you guys need to learn to control yourselves.

We all cope in different ways. Everyone on the board seems to either be really fat, a smoker, alcoholic, hippie, or just completely insane

[nedleeds]

I was told he was the 4 seed and Coach of the Year (tm) against the Hawks. They had Nate McMillan. Is that "Other excellent coaches beat him in the playoffs with a superior talent deck."? Now I know what my answer was back then, which is that RJ and Randle are **** playoff players and regular season regents who are easy to scheme against. Thibs started the worst PG in the league for 63 games instead of trying ***** ANYTHING* else. Thibs is a terrible coach, terrible roster manager and overall re-tread. The only times he 'innovates' is when he literally has players placed on injury lists. Deuce would be on the Stairmaster in the locker room if it weren't for all the injuries. He'd have started a lumbering traditional center lineup, with Randle, OG, etc.

[Knicksfan1992]

The people who complain about minutes load have probably never played a sport above high school level before. These guys practice, work out, travel. and recover WAY more than they actually play in the games. And it's been reported that Thibs has really cut back on practice time this season because of all of the injuries they've suffered. All of those factors probably play more into injuries than the games themselves do but we as fans and media don't have access to those types of things so they become an "out of sight out of mind" variable that doesn't help fit certain narratives...

While I understand NBA game speed is more intense than anything these guys do in training/practice, 10 extra minutes a game for a month isn't going to determine if someone is going to get hurt or break down or whatever you want to call it. Especially, if the injury isn't a soft tissue leg injury. Those are really the only kinds of injuries that are tied to overuse or poor preparation.

These guys are abnormally large human beings being tasked with playing in an extremely confined space and making explosive movements repetitively over the course of what has now become a 365 day a year job with all the outside training that goes into this. Injuries are going to happen and especially the ones the Knicks have don't seem to have correlation with overuse of the legs which is what most people's complaints about Thibs minute distribution would lead to. Maybe Hartenstein's? That's about it though.

[DOT]

Right. It's hard to play above your talent level in the playoffs. Especially by the 2nd round you can get countered/scooped by other excellent coaches.

People get so mad when I say Thibs is mediocre and then y'all make arguments like this

Like, if Thibs can't get his teams to play above their talent levels and excellent coaches can, then by definition Thibs isn't an "excellent" coach

I don't know why that's such a scandalous thing to say.

No. Other excellent coaches beat him in the playoffs with a superior talent deck.

We weren't supposed to beat Cleveland last season and we hosed them. Against a great coach like Spo _WHO HAD MORE TALENT_ with Randle hobbled coaching wasn't going to make up the difference.

The logical endpoint of this line of thinking is that we would need to give Thibs the most talented roster in the league in order to win, because if he can't beat a more talented team, then that caps the ceiling

Which to my definition makes him not a good and especially not an "excellent" coach if he needs more talent than the other team in order to win

But also like, how am I gonna get flamed for avoiding context and have it not be mentioned that the Heat were missing Herro for that series?

They had Butler and Bam yes, but their 3rd-6th leaders in minutes were Gabe Vincent, Max Strus, Caleb Martin, and the corpse of Kyle Lowry. This is really the team you want to say had such an overwhelming talent advantage there was no way Thibs could ever beat them?

[Capn'O]

People get so mad when I say Thibs is mediocre and then y'all make arguments like this

Like, if Thibs can't get his teams to play above their talent levels and excellent coaches can, then by definition Thibs isn't an "excellent" coach

I don't know why that's such a scandalous thing to say.

No. Other excellent coaches beat him in the playoffs with a superior talent deck.

We weren't supposed to beat Cleveland last season and we hosed them. Against a great coach like Spo _WHO HAD MORE TALENT_ with Randle hobbled coaching wasn't going to make up the difference.

The logical endpoint of this line of thinking is that we would need to give Thibs the most talented roster in the league in order to win, because if he can't beat a more talented team, then that caps the ceiling

Which to my definition makes him not a good and especially not an "excellent" coach if he needs more talent than the other team in order to win.

The logical endpoint of your line of thinking is that we should just hire Spo.

[mpharris36]

While I tend to agree with this take... I just want to ask which series should he have won that he lost as a direct result of his coaching?

Also funny coincidence that Doc's only title came with Thibs as his assistant.

You might have some extreme people that say he's a bad coach. I think he is an excellent system builder and foundation setter with a team. He instills a winning mentality and elite preparation. That certainly makes him teams very tough to play in the regular season.

His knocks are:

Can he outcoach a good coach in the playoffs (yet to be determined). He has the reputation for being stuboorn which is both a good thing but also a bad thing. In the playoffs you have to make adjustments on the fly (its what makes someone like Spo an elite post season coach). Thibs almost to a fault believes his rotation and scheme works no matter what. In the playoffs you need to adj and be more flexible which isn't a thibs strong suit.

Can he get a team fully healthy going into the playoffs (we shall see). I don't blame every injury on him him but there are certainly cases where he shouldn't get of scot-free. There are a lot of cases where overuse has hurt the knicks. Ihart basically now has to be put on a minutes restriction because his Achilles started acting up when he was nearly play +40 mins every night.

Overall the minutes in a vacuum aren't like wild....its the stretches where the rotation tightens where we have guy playing +40 for like 5-10 straight games which puts them at additional risk.

Hopefully we do get a healthy-ish squad for the playoffs because this will be a big post season for Thibs...there is no reason we shouldn't be a conference finals type team this year.

So you're telling me he's a coach with flaws like 99.9% of the other head coaches in NBA history? Lol

Me being a pompous dick aside... I understand his flaws and agree with your takes here! However, the record speaks for itself and he's proven if you give him talent to win he will win. Even in Minnesota when Jimmy was healthy they were on pace to be one of the West's top teams. Hell.. Even if you don't give him a ton of talent he finds a way to win and develop young players simultaneously in his own unconventional way.

The best thing about Thibs is he's consistent and to your point stubborn about what he expects from his guys but when he gets "buy in" like he has this year he can win at a massive level.

Just because he's fresh in my mind but, could you imagine Steve Kerr who most people, I think, consider a better coach than Thibs trying to navigate this Knicks team with all of the injuries? He'd crap his pants lol. Every time Curry goes out or they lose Draymond the Warriors suffer and become a tanking team. The best thing about Thibs is it takes like half the roster to be out for that to happen .

I just think flat out Thibs has never had a team talented enough to make the Finals and on top of that his best Bulls teams had to try to go through peak Miami and Cleveland Lebron to get there which nobody else in the East succeeded against either FWIW. I'm just not really sure the playoff argument is really rooted in any reality even if the perception is that he has underperformed there since he hasn't made the finals.

Oh I agree...we are also New Yorkers we like to complain...its in our DNA. Its why post game threads are longer when we lose and shorter when we win.

Its a double edge sword though...I agree with a lot of your pts. His stubbornness and attention to detail is ELITE. That is both a good thing and bad thing. When he treats a game in Nov like game 7 and a player gets hurt. Now I agree the Knicks certainly needed a culture changer and I the few times I said he should be fired is in gest really since I don't think he should...my emotions get in the way because its doesn't seem to be a coincidence that most of his playoff teams go limping into the playoffs.

[Capn'O]

The people who complain about minutes load have probably never played a sport above high school level before. These guys practice, work out, travel. and recover WAY more than they actually play in the games. And it's been reported that Thibs has really cut back on practice time this season because of all of the injuries they've suffered. All of those factors probably play more into injuries than the games themselves do but we as fans and media don't have access to those types of things so they become an "out of sight out of mind" variable that doesn't help fit certain narratives...

While I understand NBA game speed is more intense than anything these guys do in training/practice, 10 extra minutes a game for a month isn't going to determine if someone is going to get hurt or break down or whatever you want to call it. Especially, if the injury isn't a soft tissue leg injury. Those are really the only kinds of injuries that are tied to overuse or poor preparation.

These guys are abnormally large human beings being tasked with playing in an extremely confined space and making explosive movements repetitively over the course of what has now become a 365 day a year job with all the outside training that goes into this. Injuries are going to happen and especially the ones the Knicks have don't seem to have correlation with overuse of the legs which is what most people's complaints about Thibs minute distribution would lead to. Maybe Hartenstein's? That's about it though.

Beyond this though, Thibs is a maniac. He keeps playing guys when they're obviously hurting or beyond gassed and it's just wild to me. I was at the Portland game - I've never seen a guy in such consistently obvious pain as OG remain in the game outside of do or die playoff situations.

[mpharris36]

nice to put together a string of wins right now but between randle, og and mitch needing to be and stay healthy going forward, i'm not sure these playoffs are gonna be what people think they'll be. and it's not gonna be thibs fault if so.

Read on Twitter

some of the injuries can still be on the coach/medical staff...its hasn't been ideal there handling of some of the guys to be fair...not blaming it all on coach/medical staff but we can't keep saying he doesn't have a full roster when it seems every year he doesn't have a fully healthy roster...is that just happenstance or a coincidence? Or maybe a little of both?

like i said a couple of games ago tho, thibs doesn't clear guys to play. the medical staff does. at that point he's gonna use them like they're healthy. but i also think there's no way to simulate actual gameplay so until a guy plays you really don't know how well he'll stand up to it. and i talked about this in "around the nba" but the league in general has a serious injury epidemic right now. like a 3rd of the bigs in the league can't stay healthy anymore and in general there are just way more injuries. the pace of the game just might be too much for the human body. especially if you're really tall. it's not just the knicks. i think they're gonna have to try to fix this somehow. they did their best to curtail load management and there's more guys out not less.

yeah but I'm also assuming he's had 3 different medical staffs from CHI, to Minny, to here...but the one constant is him. I think people just within the entire org just buy into the thibs win every minute of every game no matter what.

Sure that is also on the medical staff but you he's been around the game long enough. We were all watching the POR game...OG might say he can play through it, the medical staff might say he can't re-injure a bone spur...but you can watch it with your own two eyes he was in pain so why risk it in a game in March?

Putting Mitch or Grimes back in...yes the medical staff deserves there fair share of blame as well...but how many of those guys are going to stand up to Thibs?

I think the ihart minutes limitations came down from the org to prevent thibs from overplaying him. His minutes are very pre-determined...thats not a very thibs like thing.

[Knicksfan1992]

so you're saying he should've won more with guys like nate robinson, cj watson, dj augustine, kirk hinrich? you can't be serious man. what coach is taking those guys to the ecf?

That's a disingenuous question

I'm not saying any of those teams should have gone to the ecf. I'm saying they shouldn't have

A good coach can win series where his teams have talent deficiencies. The Heat win series they shouldn't quite a bit, that's how you can tell Spoelstra is a good coach. Thibs doesn't have any of those wins

Again, he wins when he should win and loses when he should lose. A good coach can win when he should lose.

Spolestra is the best coach in the NBA and also a part of a machine of a system franchise. If Thibs being that or better is your minimum standard, good luck with that.

For whatever reason with Thibs the goal posts have been moved to well he's not the consensus best modern day coach so he's mediocre. Like what are we doing here?

Also Thibs has a winning percentage of 57.5%
Spo has a winning percentage of 58.9%

They've been similarly productive over the course of their careers and you can argue Spo has had way better talent than Thibs has had.

Also, the revisionist history of saying the Cavs had a slight paper advantage and it wasn't that impressive of a series win when they were a top 2 team based on Net Rating in the league last year is quite hilarious to me.

Also, the Heat don't likely get out of the 1st round last year if Giannis doesn't get hurt FYI but, that doesn't fit the agenda either.

[DOT]

No. Other excellent coaches beat him in the playoffs with a superior talent deck.

We weren't supposed to beat Cleveland last season and we hosed them. Against a great coach like Spo _WHO HAD MORE TALENT_ with Randle hobbled coaching wasn't going to make up the difference.

The logical endpoint of this line of thinking is that we would need to give Thibs the most talented roster in the league in order to win, because if he can't beat a more talented team, then that caps the ceiling

Which to my definition makes him not a good and especially not an "excellent" coach if he needs more talent than the other team in order to win.

The logical endpoint of your line of thinking is that we should just hire Spo.

He's a good coach

Thibs is mid

Of course I would hire him. I mean, to be fair, he did have such an overwhelming talent advantage last year. I mean, the big 3 of Jimmy Butler, Bam, and Caleb Martin vs Jayson Tatum, Jaylen Brown, and Derrick White? Any coach would've easily won that one, so lopsided in Miami's favor

[RHODEY]

You wanna win or be good in the 1st and 2nd round of the playoffs ?

Redundancy doesnt win.

gets you to the finals at least, boston did last year, they're gonna do it again this year.

Boston didnt field a 6ft non defensive redundant player backcourt.

[aggo]

I honestly can't wait for the AI revolution


"hi siri, can u just filter out all messages that talk about thibs and injuries please?"

[stuporman]

Thibs has the Knicks at 3-0 on a 4 game western road trip that many were just happy if they went 2-2 on but most of the talk in here is about he's the problem?

Even though the current binky player infatuation, Deuce, was a guy he jumped on the table to draft and gradually developed that is finally producing in a way that most 2 round picks never do but 'meme take' reason why he's the issue.

I don't like having to sound like I'm defending him because yes, I still have concerns about his offensive system, I mean lack of offensive system, do think his rotations, adjustments and minutes are questionable. Although, I will say it when it happens, when it makes the team lose then I will say it.

Until then, his team is winning at a rate we haven't seen from the Knicks in decades. There aren't many top 10 coaches in the league...there are only 10 of them, and Thibs is right there.

Can the Knicks get a better coach? Sure, but they can also get a worse one, too, there's no guarantee.

[aggo]

Watch on YouTube

Wow dude is saying bing bong in the review now. Back to back games of praise.

Thibs man

when u watch his videos on other coaches.


what we lose on offense with thibs, we gain on defense.


its so very clear that some other coaches on good teams dont even coach defense after watching his videos.

[spree8]

People get so mad when I say Thibs is mediocre and then y'all make arguments like this

Like, if Thibs can't get his teams to play above their talent levels and excellent coaches can, then by definition Thibs isn't an "excellent" coach

I don't know why that's such a scandalous thing to say.

No. Other excellent coaches beat him in the playoffs with a superior talent deck.

We weren't supposed to beat Cleveland last season and we hosed them. Against a great coach like Spo _WHO HAD MORE TALENT_ with Randle hobbled coaching wasn't going to make up the difference.

The logical endpoint of this line of thinking is that we would need to give Thibs the most talented roster in the league in order to win, because if he can't beat a more talented team, then that caps the ceiling

Which to my definition makes him not a good and especially not an "excellent" coach if he needs more talent than the other team in order to win

But also like, how am I gonna get flamed for avoiding context and have it not be mentioned that the Heat were missing Herro for that series?

They had Butler and Bam yes, but their 3rd-6th leaders in minutes were Gabe Vincent, Max Strus, Caleb Martin, and the corpse of Kyle Lowry. This is really the team you want to say had such an overwhelming talent advantage there was no way Thibs could ever beat them?

Randle is an All-NBA/All-Star, Herro is nowhere close to that. Like, really.

Thibs is a good coach. I’m not sure how that’s even debatable by anyone who knows basketball. He may not have the team play the style you want, and you may not agree with his rotations/minutes or particular adjustments, but you can’t take away from what he’s accomplished in this league. I’m far from his biggest advocate, but the guy is good.

Saying he needs more talent than any other coach in the league to win is simply being disingenuous.

[thebuzzardman]

Since Thibs is a mediocre loser who elevates nothing and his ability to f*ck up as a front office executive is well documented from his time in Minnesota, and Leon Rose is a pastrami eating clown who leaves basketball decisions to others, who is the architect of of the current Knick team, whose vision are we seeing in system\player acquisition?

Because the Knicks certainly have "types" when it comes to role players.

I get that because Brunson is so good, he's elevating the role players, and Brunson has ties to both Leon and Thibs, and it's possible that him being on the team and making it so good is a combination of scouting, type, and possibly luck revolving around CAA ties etc.

But deciding to add the Villanova cats, with their tenacity and commitment to winning above stats etc, adding a tough passing center in iHart who is an excellent fit with them, dealing out real young talent in RJ and IQ for a perfectly fitting piece in OG, keeping McBride over Grimes, the theoretical benefit of Bogs being added, all this is someone's vision.

Aller is supposed to the capologist, the money guy, the valuation guy. That's in support of the vision.

Perrin is supposed to be the college scouting guru. Is he providing input on the pro level? Is he the main driver of which players are acquired?

Zanin, occasionally maligned on here, is pro player scouting. Is this his work?

Is it Rosas? We know he advocated for iHart. Strong pimp hand for a consultant if this is all him.

Is it Thibs, with the main vision, as the executives in the front office dance for this puppet master?
Excellent work for Mr Mediocrity, so called.

Or is it all the result of a committee? Seems unlikely based on anyone's experience working on committees


STATE YOUR CASE. SOMEONE IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THIS.