Tank World Order (The Remix Vol. IV)

[OakleyDokely]

More likely to me would be if they like had a mid-season shuffle or something. Like after so many games at the 41 game mark the top 2 teams in B moved up.

I still think the best option is the mid-season relegation type thing I posted earlier. Added benefit is we get more marquee matchup games in the regular season which I think is a good thing to.

I know this format will never happen, but I just find so many games now are completely meaningless with a bunch of teams not even trying.

Maybe just shortening the regular season would help. The tourney seemed to be a success, so maybe they can expand that in some way.

In my opinion it is not as far fetched as you think... fans, management, media, etc. all know the tanking thing is an issue. There are a few key principles though to fix blatant tanking (like we are doing now).

1) Lottery odds need to be flattened. If there is no meaningful difference between being 21st or 30th you won't see these massive strip downs take place. Like you said earlier, just give the same odds to every team to miss the playoffs.

While you are at it, draw for the top 5 or 6 instead of top 4. Just because you are bad should not give you a top 5 pick guaranteed.

2) Give incentive to games down the stretch. Currently - once you are out of the playoffs you have literally NOTHING to play for and have legit incentive to LOSE. There are a few ways to counter this:

a) set it up like that guy on The General Board suggested. Lock in lottery odds earlier so that teams down the stretch do not have incentive to lose.

b) do something like the new womens hockey league is doing. Once you are "mathematically" eliminated, you start to earn points for every win you get. So right now, only 5 teams are "eliminated". Those 5 teams would earn 1 "lottery point" for every win they get the rest of the season. The team with the most lottery points gets the top pick in the draft (or the best odds, whatever you want).

Zach Lowe had a dude in research and development from the NBA on one of his pods a few months ago, and he did mention variations of these ideas as possible solutions, so the NBA is looking at different things.

[akakalakin]

thread needs to be divided, optimist vs pessimist

[ArthurVandelay]

I know this format will never happen, but I just find so many games now are completely meaningless with a bunch of teams not even trying.

Maybe just shortening the regular season would help. The tourney seemed to be a success, so maybe they can expand that in some way.

In my opinion it is not as far fetched as you think... fans, management, media, etc. all know the tanking thing is an issue. There are a few key principles though to fix blatant tanking (like we are doing now).

1) Lottery odds need to be flattened. If there is no meaningful difference between being 21st or 30th you won't see these massive strip downs take place. Like you said earlier, just give the same odds to every team to miss the playoffs.

While you are at it, draw for the top 5 or 6 instead of top 4. Just because you are bad should not give you a top 5 pick guaranteed.

2) Give incentive to games down the stretch. Currently - once you are out of the playoffs you have literally NOTHING to play for and have legit incentive to LOSE. There are a few ways to counter this:

a) set it up like that guy on The General Board suggested. Lock in lottery odds earlier so that teams down the stretch do not have incentive to lose.

b) do something like the new womens hockey league is doing. Once you are "mathematically" eliminated, you start to earn points for every win you get. So right now, only 5 teams are "eliminated". Those 5 teams would earn 1 "lottery point" for every win they get the rest of the season. The team with the most lottery points gets the top pick in the draft (or the best odds, whatever you want).

Zach Lowe had a dude in research and development from the NBA on one of his pods a few months ago, and he did mention variations of these ideas as possible solutions, so the NBA is looking at different things.

I think flatten the odds and increase the lottery happens again

It use to be top 3 lottery then top 4

Flatten the odds some more and make it top 6

[YogurtProducer]

In my opinion it is not as far fetched as you think... fans, management, media, etc. all know the tanking thing is an issue. There are a few key principles though to fix blatant tanking (like we are doing now).

1) Lottery odds need to be flattened. If there is no meaningful difference between being 21st or 30th you won't see these massive strip downs take place. Like you said earlier, just give the same odds to every team to miss the playoffs.

While you are at it, draw for the top 5 or 6 instead of top 4. Just because you are bad should not give you a top 5 pick guaranteed.

2) Give incentive to games down the stretch. Currently - once you are out of the playoffs you have literally NOTHING to play for and have legit incentive to LOSE. There are a few ways to counter this:

a) set it up like that guy on The General Board suggested. Lock in lottery odds earlier so that teams down the stretch do not have incentive to lose.

b) do something like the new womens hockey league is doing. Once you are "mathematically" eliminated, you start to earn points for every win you get. So right now, only 5 teams are "eliminated". Those 5 teams would earn 1 "lottery point" for every win they get the rest of the season. The team with the most lottery points gets the top pick in the draft (or the best odds, whatever you want).

Zach Lowe had a dude in research and development from the NBA on one of his pods a few months ago, and he did mention variations of these ideas as possible solutions, so the NBA is looking at different things.

I think flatten the odds and increase the lottery happens again

It use to be top 3 lottery then top 4

Flatten the odds some more and make it top 6

Agreed - but as long as teams have nothing to play for (eliminated from playoffs) we are going to get garbage games like this. If the lottery was top 6 this year and not top 4 would it really change how the bottom 5-6 teams are operating right now? Granted, teams might not bottom out as much to begin with, but if they were in this spot right now nothing would really fundamentally change.

[ArthurVandelay]

Zach Lowe had a dude in research and development from the NBA on one of his pods a few months ago, and he did mention variations of these ideas as possible solutions, so the NBA is looking at different things.

I think flatten the odds and increase the lottery happens again

It use to be top 3 lottery then top 4

Flatten the odds some more and make it top 6

Agreed - but as long as teams have nothing to play for (eliminated from playoffs) we are going to get garbage games like this. If the lottery was top 6 this year and not top 4 would it really change how the bottom 5-6 teams are operating right now? Granted, teams might not bottom out as much to begin with, but if they were in this spot right now nothing would really fundamentally change.

It worked previously, along with the play in, in slowing the race to the bottom. Seems being awful is back in vogue

If bottom 6 teams only have say 33.3% chance at top 6 and the odds among those top 6 picks is equal, it will diminish the risk vs reward.

There are always going to be bad teams. The goal is to minimize the reward for intentionally being bad and make it so you also need more than a bit of luck

[YogurtProducer]

I think flatten the odds and increase the lottery happens again

It use to be top 3 lottery then top 4

Flatten the odds some more and make it top 6

Agreed - but as long as teams have nothing to play for (eliminated from playoffs) we are going to get garbage games like this. If the lottery was top 6 this year and not top 4 would it really change how the bottom 5-6 teams are operating right now? Granted, teams might not bottom out as much to begin with, but if they were in this spot right now nothing would really fundamentally change.

It worked previously, along with the play in, in slowing the race to the bottom. Seems being awful is back in vogue

If bottom 6 teams only have say 33.3% chance at top 6 and the odds among those top 6 picks is equal, it will diminish the risk vs reward.

There are always going to be bad teams. The goal is to minimize the reward for intentionally being bad and make it so you also need more than a bit of luck

True - but finishing last guarantees you pick top 7. Finishing as the first team to miss the playoffs only guarantees the 14th pick.

I think they need to focus on incentivizing winning down the stretch just as much as they do need to overhaul the lottery system. Two different things but both trying to solve the same problem. A little of A and a little of B i think is the solution.

[ArthurVandelay]

Agreed - but as long as teams have nothing to play for (eliminated from playoffs) we are going to get garbage games like this. If the lottery was top 6 this year and not top 4 would it really change how the bottom 5-6 teams are operating right now? Granted, teams might not bottom out as much to begin with, but if they were in this spot right now nothing would really fundamentally change.

It worked previously, along with the play in, in slowing the race to the bottom. Seems being awful is back in vogue

If bottom 6 teams only have say 33.3% chance at top 6 and the odds among those top 6 picks is equal, it will diminish the risk vs reward.

There are always going to be bad teams. The goal is to minimize the reward for intentionally being bad and make it so you also need more than a bit of luck

True - but finishing last guarantees you pick top 7. Finishing as the first team to miss the playoffs only guarantees the 14th pick.

I think they need to focus on incentivizing winning down the stretch just as much as they do need to overhaul the lottery system. Two different things but both trying to solve the same problem. A little of A and a little of B i think is the solution.

Fair, I haven’t done the math but you’d also increase odds for 7-14 to get into the lottery (in this case top-6).

I think there needs to be balance for the teams that are legitimately lower on talent to acquire that talent and ensure being intentionally awful isn’t rewarded.

It’s a balancing act no doubt

[YogurtProducer]

It worked previously, along with the play in, in slowing the race to the bottom. Seems being awful is back in vogue

If bottom 6 teams only have say 33.3% chance at top 6 and the odds among those top 6 picks is equal, it will diminish the risk vs reward.

There are always going to be bad teams. The goal is to minimize the reward for intentionally being bad and make it so you also need more than a bit of luck

True - but finishing last guarantees you pick top 7. Finishing as the first team to miss the playoffs only guarantees the 14th pick.

I think they need to focus on incentivizing winning down the stretch just as much as they do need to overhaul the lottery system. Two different things but both trying to solve the same problem. A little of A and a little of B i think is the solution.

Fair, I haven’t done the math but you’d also increase odds for 7-14 to get into the lottery (in this case top-6).

I think there needs to be balance for the teams that are legitimately lower on talent to acquire that talent and ensure being intentionally awful isn’t rewarded.

It’s a balancing act no doubt

Part of the problem is how teams have to bottom out and be just horrible to try and get the top end prospects. If there was a more balanced system you would not see bottom teams necessarily trade off all their vets or refrain from signing free agents. I think the fact teams get as bad as they do currently is a flaw in the system in which teams purposely make flawed rosters to gamble on getting superior youth.

[dohboy_24]

Given the situation with the pick(s) we need to send to the Spurs, these are the possible scenarios:

Scenario #1: Keep our own pick in 2024 (top 6) + Pacers 2024 pick + Pistons 2024 pick + we miss the play-in tournament next year + we end up with one of the sixth worst records again + keep our own pick in 2025 (top 6) - send two (2) second round picks to the Spurs in the 2026 draft

Scenario #2: Send our own pick in 2024 to the Spurs (7-12) + Pacers 2024 pick + Pistons 2024 pick + we miss the play-in tournament next year + we end up with one of the sixth worst records again + keep our own pick in 2025 (top 6)

Scenario #3: Keep our own pick in 2024 (top 6) + Pacers 2024 pick + Pistons 2024 pick + we make the playoffs next year as one of the top 6 seeds in the Eastern conference - we send our 2025 draft pick to Spurs (21-30)

Scenario #4: Keep our own pick in 2024 (top 6) + Pacers 2024 pick + Pistons 2024 pick + we make the play-in tournament next year - we send our 2025 draft pick to Spurs (13-20)

Scenario #5: Keep our own pick in 2024 (top 6) + Pacers 2024 pick + Pistons 2024 pick + we miss the play-in tournament next year - we send our 2025 draft pick to Spurs (7-12)

Scenario #6: Send our own pick in 2024 to the Spurs (7-12) + Pacers 2024 pick + Pistons 2024 pick + we miss the playoffs and play-in tournament next year + keep our own pick in 2025 (top 12)

Scenario #7: Send our own pick in 2024 to Spurs (7-12) + Pacers 2024 pick + Pistons 2024 pick + we make the play-in tournament next year + keep our own pick in 2025 (13-20)

Scenario #8: Send our own pick in 2024 to Spurs (7-12) + Pacers 2024 pick + Pistons 2024 pick + we make the playoffs next year as one of the top 6 seeds in the Eastern conference + keep our own pick in 2025 (21-30)

Given the options above, why would you want to convey the pick this year instead of next year (2025) when it will likely be in the 13-20 range (assuming the Raptors make enough improvement next year to make the play-in tournament) or in 2026 when it will be two (2) second round picks (assuming the Raptors don't improve and are still one of the six worst teams next year)?

Unless you think scenario #2 is the most likely to occur and we'll be bad enough next year to get a guaranteed top 6 pick in the 2025 draft, how does conveying the pick this year and ending up with one of scenario #6, #7, or #8 going to produce better outcomes for our team than keeping the pick and ending up with one of scenario #1, #3, #4, or #5?

[TorontoBarneys]

I'm no expert on this upcoming draft but I'll say if we do get to keep the pick for this year, if we land on any 1 of the big 3 French prospects, I'll be happy.

[ArthurVandelay]

Bane questionable vs Spurs with a sore back

Ffs

What a joke…and if his back truly is bad, my apologies to him, but this stinks

[dohboy_24]

Bane questionable vs Spurs with a sore back

Ffs

What a joke…and if his back truly is bad, my apologies to him, but this stinks

The issue goes beyond just Bane at this point...



While it didn't happen until later in the season, we have 2 starters (Scottie + JP) out of the starting lineup due to injury compared to just one (1) for Memphis (Ja) and another with a legitimate personal reason to excuse himself from the team (RJ) while Memphis has as many players as needed to field a starting lineup who are listed as questionable or probable for reasons that appear un-related to any actual injury that would otherwise keep them from playing.

If Memphis keeps trying to play chess like this we're going to have to throw away the checkerboard and join in to even have a choice of passing them in the standings...

[MiamiSPX]

All these bottom teams ensuring they don't accidentally win a game lol.

[MiamiSPX]

If Memphis keeps trying to play chess like this we're going to have to throw away the checkerboard and join in to even have a choice of passing them in the standings...

Some have argued that Memphis has no incentive to tank but I don't see it that way at all. Once they get everyone back and healthy next year, I am sure they expect to be good again (and probably will be). So why not grab the best prospect you can right now to add to that team? They are clearly stealth tanking, and it's smart.

[LoveMyRaps]

Bane questionable vs Spurs with a sore back

Ffs

What a joke…and if his back truly is bad, my apologies to him, but this stinks

Blatant tanking.

[Duffman100]

Bane questionable vs Spurs with a sore back

Ffs

What a joke…and if his back truly is bad, my apologies to him, but this stinks

Blatant tanking.

NBA has to address this. It's shameless and ridiculous.

[DelAbbot]

There is no such a thing as stealth tanking

All tanking are obviously blatant

[WuTang_CMB]

i dont know what people are expecting
all these teams gonna sit there guys when they are far out of the playoff picture

we did the same in the tampa year

it is what it is at this point with this pick

[dohboy_24]

All these bottom teams ensuring they don't accidentally win a game lol.

Bottom 5 in the Eastern Conference:

Brookyln: https://www.espn.com/nba/team/injuries/_/name/bkn/brooklyn-nets
4 players on the IR | 2 listed as OUT, 2 listed as DAY-to-DAY

Toronto: https://www.espn.com/nba/team/injuries/_/name/tor
7 players on the IR | 6 listed as OUT, 1 listed as DAY-to-DAY

Charlotte: https://www.espn.com/nba/team/injuries/_/name/cha/charlotte-hornets
Zero (0) players on the IR

Detroit: https://www.espn.com/nba/team/injuries/_/name/det/detroit-pistons
6 players on the IR | All listed as OUT

Washington: https://www.espn.com/nba/team/injuries/_/name/wsh/washington-wizards
6 players on the IR | 5 listed as OUT, 1 listed as DAY-to-DAY

Bottom 5 in the Western Conference:

Houston: https://www.espn.com/nba/team/injuries/_/name/hou
4 players on the IR | All listed as OUT

Utah: https://www.espn.com/nba/team/injuries/_/name/utah
2 players on the IR | 1 listed as OUT, 1 listed as DAY-to-DAY

Memphis: https://www.espn.com/nba/team/injuries/_/name/mem
13 players on the IR | 10 listed as OUT, 3 listed as DAY-to-DAY

Portland: https://www.espn.com/nba/team/injuries/_/name/por
7 players on the IR | 4 listed as OUT, 3 listed as DAY-to-DAY

San Antonio: https://www.espn.com/nba/team/injuries/_/name/sa
2 players on the IR | 1 listed as OUT, 1 listed as DAY-to-DAY

The Grizzlies have 13 players on their IR while the rest of the Western Conference (4 teams) have a total of 15 players on the IR.

Among those 4 teams, they average 3.75 players on the IR. When you add Memphis, the average jumps by almost 2 players to 5.6 players on the IR.

Comparatively, the bottom 5 teams in the East have a total of 23 players on the IR, averaging 4.6 players on the IR each.

By most any measure, the injured reserve for the Memphis Grizzlies has 2-3 times as many players listed on it than any other team fighting for position in the upcoming draft and by that statistic alone, they are currently in the midst of a masterclass on how to abuse the injured reserve and tank for a top pick.

[ArthurVandelay]

i dont know what people are expecting
all these teams gonna sit there guys when they are far out of the playoff picture

we did the same in the tampa year

it is what it is at this point with this pick

You’re right.

The problem is the system which people have discussed. Raptors are likely as bad right now than anyone with the people who could actually play. Scottie, Poeltl, RJ and possibly IQ are guys legitimately unable to play.

Increase the lottery to 6 and continue flattening the odds.

It won’t solve the problem totally but it will make a team pause if the risks of intentionally being the worst team in the NBA are worth odds that give a greater chance to pick 7th than 1st.