Jason Kidd, Defense, and Exceptions to the Rule

[FrodoBaggins]

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[canada_dry]

I've always said Kidd was the closest thing to being a defensive anchor a non big could get. He was that good on that end
So these stats don't surprise me.

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[og15]

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Charges are killer, better than blocks. The clip also slightly reminded me of how poor that Nets offense was in the half court.

[Karate Diop]

What the Kidd Did?

If you know you know. No cap, no cap.

[scrabbarista]

I'm sure there'll be posters that can't process the idea that a guard could have an impact on defense like elite bigs. For what it's worth, Alex Caruso is right up there with Rudy and Wemby in the one-number defensive metrics like D-EPM, D-DRIP, and D-LEBRON.

There have been several great defensive teams in NBA history that lacked appreciable rim protection. Some of these include the following:

- '90s Chicago Bulls (especially from 1996-1998)
- '90s Supersonics
- Big three Miami Heat (particularly the first two years)
- Late '60s/early-to-mid '70s Knicks
- '70s Celtics
- 2022 Warriors?
- Kidd's PHX and NJN teams?
- '80s MIlwaukee?

You don't think there can be exceptions? A player's impact is limited by the players they play with and the system they play in. Nash goes to Phoenix, is surrounded by great finishers, and gets to monopolize possession and run the offense. His offensive impact skyrockets. Goes through the roof.

Can't the same be true for the defensive end of the court?

How many teams are willing to acquire the personnel to run a system that maximizes the impact of a defensive PG? In the NBA, barely any. The 2023-24 Houston Cougars are doing it at the NCAA D1 level. They have the #1 defense in the country and its historically strong, ranking as one of the best of the 21st century. Its ten-man rotation includes the following:

LJ Cryer (6'1" Guard)
Jamal Shead (6'1" Guard)
Emanuel Sharp (6'3" Guard)
J'Wan Roberts (6'7" Forward)
Damian Dunn (6'5" Guard)
Ja'Vier Francis (6'8" Forward)
Mylik Wilson (6'3" Guard)
Joseph Tugler (6'7" Forward)
Terrance Arceneaux (6'5" Guard)
Ramon Walker (6'4" Guard)

They trap/blitz ball screens excessively hard, recover, switch, rotate, close out hard, and force a ridiculous amount of turnovers. Now, according to Basketball Reference's DBPM, Jamal Shead - a 6'1" PG - is the most impactful defender: +6.9 points per 100 possessions. Best in the entire country, above big rim-protecting centers and mobile long forwards.

I know it's college, but it's still interesting.

I don't see why a generational defensive guard couldn't have a defensive impact appreciable to an elite defensive big if he played with the right personnel and in the right system.

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I've been on this idea ever since a lineup featuring DeRozan and Vucevic was defensively dominant over a large sample. Since then, I've felt like I'm constantly seeing situations that emphasize the importance of guard and wing defenders, and it's constantly swept under the rug because it's just already "established" that bigs are the most impactful. Milwaukee's "double-DPoY" squad hasn't looked so impressive this season without Holiday, e.g.. But I feel like there are a million examples floating around. I've just been waiting for some groundbreaking stats/theory to come from someone who actually has the time and energy to do it (maybe because it's their job or whatever).

[FrodoBaggins]

I'm sure there'll be posters that can't process the idea that a guard could have an impact on defense like elite bigs. For what it's worth, Alex Caruso is right up there with Rudy and Wemby in the one-number defensive metrics like D-EPM, D-DRIP, and D-LEBRON.

There have been several great defensive teams in NBA history that lacked appreciable rim protection. Some of these include the following:

- '90s Chicago Bulls (especially from 1996-1998)
- '90s Supersonics
- Big three Miami Heat (particularly the first two years)
- Late '60s/early-to-mid '70s Knicks
- '70s Celtics
- 2022 Warriors?
- Kidd's PHX and NJN teams?
- '80s MIlwaukee?

You don't think there can be exceptions? A player's impact is limited by the players they play with and the system they play in. Nash goes to Phoenix, is surrounded by great finishers, and gets to monopolize possession and run the offense. His offensive impact skyrockets. Goes through the roof.

Can't the same be true for the defensive end of the court?

How many teams are willing to acquire the personnel to run a system that maximizes the impact of a defensive PG? In the NBA, barely any. The 2023-24 Houston Cougars are doing it at the NCAA D1 level. They have the #1 defense in the country and its historically strong, ranking as one of the best of the 21st century. Its ten-man rotation includes the following:

LJ Cryer (6'1" Guard)
Jamal Shead (6'1" Guard)
Emanuel Sharp (6'3" Guard)
J'Wan Roberts (6'7" Forward)
Damian Dunn (6'5" Guard)
Ja'Vier Francis (6'8" Forward)
Mylik Wilson (6'3" Guard)
Joseph Tugler (6'7" Forward)
Terrance Arceneaux (6'5" Guard)
Ramon Walker (6'4" Guard)

They trap/blitz ball screens excessively hard, recover, switch, rotate, close out hard, and force a ridiculous amount of turnovers. Now, according to Basketball Reference's DBPM, Jamal Shead - a 6'1" PG - is the most impactful defender: +6.9 points per 100 possessions. Best in the entire country, above big rim-protecting centers and mobile long forwards.

I know it's college, but it's still interesting.

I don't see why a generational defensive guard couldn't have a defensive impact appreciable to an elite defensive big if he played with the right personnel and in the right system.

Watch on YouTube

I've been on this idea ever since a lineup featuring DeRozan and Vucevic was defensively dominant over a large sample. Since then, I've felt like I'm constantly seeing situations that emphasize the importance of guard and wing defenders, and it's constantly swept under the rug because it's just already "established" that bigs are the most impactful. Milwaukee's "double-DPoY" squad hasn't looked so impressive this season without Holiday, e.g.. But I feel like there are a million examples floating around. I've just been waiting for some groundbreaking stats/theory to come from someone who actually has the time and energy to do it (maybe because it's their job or whatever).

When Lonzo was healthy, he and Caruo had Chicago looking real nice on defense. Crazy amounts of turnovers, ball pressure, and transition offense. Borderline top 5 I believe. With Vucevic at center as well.

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The 2022 Warriors won that championship off the back of their defense. And although Draymond is a good rim protector, it's all his other qualities that make him special. They were a small ball team built around aggressive helping and pinpoint rotations thanks to Green's communication. They were on pace for like a -8.4 rDRtg before Green went down with an injury. The post-merger record is -8.8 by the '04 Spurs. The '08 Celtics were -8.6 rDRtg.

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[FrodoBaggins]

Great post from an old thread.

Jason Kidd and Gary Payton

I watched a lot of Nets and Sonics games because I like both of these players, and because point guard defense has always interested me. From watching Lindsey Hunter hound players into turnovers before they even crossed halfcourt back when he was on the Pistons to watching Kirk Hinrich somehow solve Dwyane Wade like a rubix cube, to watching Baron Davis guard power forwards in the post and prevent them from moving an inch.... I love all of it. Defense is as entertaining to watch for me as offense is, so I was very excited to do some game study on two of the best defensive points to ever lace up.

Jason Kidd, not Gary Payton, is the best defensive point guard I've ever seen

That's not how I felt before, but its actually pretty easy to say after reviewing the tape. Payton was a great isolation defender who was fantastic at sniping in on unsuspecting post players for a steal, and even better at trapping players in conjunction with teammates and forcing turnovers. But his possession-to-possession defensive influence was pretty underwhelming, and there went large stretches of time where he had little discernible effect on the opposing offense at all if they weren't going right at him. He got blown up by screens more than I would have liked to see, and as good as his hands were, he was small enough that a good, bigger player posting him up wasn't a bad idea.

That's not necessarily an indictment on Payton's defensive skill -- its simply a function of being a perimeter player. Unless you are a player manning one of the paint positions (C, PF), your defensive impact is inherently limited by the space you occupy on the floor. It will be really, REALLY hard to influence the opposing offense on a near possession basis if you aren't a big.

And yet, that's what Jason Kidd seemed to be doing with the Nets. I was floored by his involvement in nearly every defensive possession. Obviously he wasn't stealing or blocking the ball every play, but almost every time down the court it seemed like he was doing things like:

a) Altering an opposing players dribble as he pursued his assignment
b) Positioning himself to alter a players drive into a more awkward one
c) Deflecting balls and/or passes into loose balls
d) Forcing bigger players to pass out and reset the offense on switches
e) Stripping anything near him in the paint
f) Rotating to the right player and closing out without flying by

He defended 1-3 about the same, and was tall, handsy, and strong enough that posting up a big against him wasn't worth the effort it took to get the switch. He drew more charges in traffic and transition than I can remember, and just generally seemed to be influential in more possessions per game than most if not all guards I've watched. Reminded me a lot of Scottie Pippen in that respect.

Payton was a great, and solidly impactful defender and probably top 3 at the PG position, but was too easy to get around as a team offensive unit to justify a DPOY award. Especially when there were big men who clearly had more possession to possession responsibility.

While Kidd was as close to a guard defensive anchor as I've seen, outside of Michael Jordan.

[HMFFL]

Imagine if the Spurs had traded Tony for him, as was rumored.
No regrets as a Spurs fan obviously, things worked out pretty well for us, but him & Duncan on defense would have been ridiculous, and Kidd & Manu on offense would have been crazy fun.

For Kidd, if Duncan was his teammate, he could actually focus on more areas of his game, and not have to be inside all the time. As you know, Kidd was a dawg, who only wanted to win., but that duo would be dangerous.

Co ROY with Grant Hill and I remember most being content that the two win.

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[dhsilv2]

I'll basically agree with most of what's been said here. Kidd was as impactful as anyone short of the Duncan, Deke, Ben Wallace tier guys in his era on that side. He wasn't just a point of attack defender like Payton, but he had the roaming zone plays like a Stockton with the size and strength of a wing. And that's what we've always been told by analytics to look for, off ball elite defense can disrupt teams more than on ball. And he was hardly a bad on ball guy.

[cupcakesnake]

I'll basically agree with most of what's been said here. Kidd was as impactful as anyone short of the Duncan, Deke, Ben Wallace tier guys in his era on that side. He wasn't just a point of attack defender like Payton, but he had the roaming zone plays like a Stockton with the size and strength of a wing. And that's what we've always been told by analytics to look for, off ball elite defense can disrupt teams more than on ball. And he was hardly a bad on ball guy.

I'm trying to think of how to compare Kidd to other defenders of that era who weren't elite bigs. Where would you rank Kidd amongst the likes of Artest, Bowen, Marion, Kirilenko, Battier, Doug Christie, Tayshaun Prince?

[dhsilv2]

I'll basically agree with most of what's been said here. Kidd was as impactful as anyone short of the Duncan, Deke, Ben Wallace tier guys in his era on that side. He wasn't just a point of attack defender like Payton, but he had the roaming zone plays like a Stockton with the size and strength of a wing. And that's what we've always been told by analytics to look for, off ball elite defense can disrupt teams more than on ball. And he was hardly a bad on ball guy.

I'm trying to think of how to compare Kidd to other defenders of that era who weren't elite bigs. Where would you rank Kidd amongst the likes of Artest, Bowen, Marion, Kirilenko, Battier, Doug Christie, Tayshaun Prince?

Oh man. That's a great one.

I'll go ahead and put Prince last, sold on ball if the guy wasn't strong. Length was good off ball but again lack of strength.

Man...this is hard because I feel like some of these guys are these really strong peaks, but fell off a bit. AK47 jumps out. Christie seemed unreal a few years, but his body of work seemed weaker.

Artest, Kidd, and Christie seem the most comparable and I'd rank them in that order. Artest's size and strength was just overwhelming at times. I think some of the RAPM data with Christie I tend to think was helped by having Vlade and Webber (flawed as he was as a defender he was mobile and 6'10).

Battier vs Bowen is a really fun one. Both could be argued as the best point of attack defenders of the era. Bowen being a bit more dirty while Battier was "dirty" in a less physical way. I'd tend to say Battier seemed to better understand team defense, but I think that short sells Bowen knowing how to over play his man to then force them to drive into Duncan. But I can't get past I never felt like he was that great as a rotation guy. Not that disrupted. So here Battier over Bowen.

AK47 vs Marion is tough as AK47 was my favorite guy in this group but also the one I saw by far the least due to being on the Jazz. So AK47 but I don't feel strong on how I"ll rank him.

Gun to head at their best. But I'm very open to adjustments or some film study to move these around. I feel good about Artest. The numbers don't make me love my pick of AK47 but his shot blocking and mobility have always made him at least look the part. You could get me to flip kidd and battier or Bowen and Christie.

Artest
AK47
Kidd
Battier
Christie
Bowen
Marion
Prince

[FrodoBaggins]

I'm sure there'll be posters that can't process the idea that a guard could have an impact on defense like elite bigs. For what it's worth, Alex Caruso is right up there with Rudy and Wemby in the one-number defensive metrics like D-EPM, D-DRIP, and D-LEBRON.

There have been several great defensive teams in NBA history that lacked appreciable rim protection. Some of these include the following:

- '90s Chicago Bulls (especially from 1996-1998)
- '90s Supersonics
- Big three Miami Heat (particularly the first two years)
- Late '60s/early-to-mid '70s Knicks
- '70s Celtics
- 2022 Warriors?
- Kidd's PHX and NJN teams?
- '80s MIlwaukee?

You don't think there can be exceptions? A player's impact is limited by the players they play with and the system they play in. Nash goes to Phoenix, is surrounded by great finishers, and gets to monopolize possession and run the offense. His offensive impact skyrockets. Goes through the roof.

Can't the same be true for the defensive end of the court?

How many teams are willing to acquire the personnel to run a system that maximizes the impact of a defensive PG? In the NBA, barely any. The 2023-24 Houston Cougars are doing it at the NCAA D1 level. They have the #1 defense in the country and its historically strong, ranking as one of the best of the 21st century. Its ten-man rotation includes the following:

LJ Cryer (6'1" Guard)
Jamal Shead (6'1" Guard)
Emanuel Sharp (6'3" Guard)
J'Wan Roberts (6'7" Forward)
Damian Dunn (6'5" Guard)
Ja'Vier Francis (6'8" Forward)
Mylik Wilson (6'3" Guard)
Joseph Tugler (6'7" Forward)
Terrance Arceneaux (6'5" Guard)
Ramon Walker (6'4" Guard)

They trap/blitz ball screens excessively hard, recover, switch, rotate, close out hard, and force a ridiculous amount of turnovers. Now, according to Basketball Reference's DBPM, Jamal Shead - a 6'1" PG - is the most impactful defender: +6.9 points per 100 possessions. Best in the entire country, above big rim-protecting centers and mobile long forwards.

I know it's college, but it's still interesting.

I don't see why a generational defensive guard couldn't have a defensive impact appreciable to an elite defensive big if he played with the right personnel and in the right system.

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Made this post nearly a year ago; OKC and Houston are proving it right this season. The Thunder have been dominant defensively even without Holmgren and Hartenstein.

OKC: -8.6 rDRtg
HOU: -4.5 rDRtg

Caruso leads the NBA in EPM (+3.7), DBPM (+4.2), on-court defensive rating (98.9 DRtg), and leads OKC in on/off net defensive rating (-8.5). The caveat is that he only plays 19 minutes per game. Still, it's proof of concept that a guard can be the most impactful defender in the league - on a per-possession basis at least.

The Thompson twins, Kris Dunn, Dyson Daniels, and Jalen Williams are examples of other non-center defenders having a big defensive impact.

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[SweaterBae]

PG is the last position a player can make an impact on defense because they are the least versatile in who and what they can defend.

[cupcakesnake]

Gun to head at their best. But I'm very open to adjustments or some film study to move these around. I feel good about Artest. The numbers don't make me love my pick of AK47 but his shot blocking and mobility have always made him at least look the part. You could get me to flip kidd and battier or Bowen and Christie.

Artest
AK47
Kidd
Battier
Christie
Bowen
Marion
Prince

Forgot I never responded to this and now I'm re-reading. All of these players are great defenders, so I hate to see any of them low on a list, haha.

I value Marion and Prince a lot more than do, I think.

Along with AK47, Prince is the other guy on that list with center-like standing reach. He had a real ability to protect the rim, but sort of hilariously he only played on teams that had elite rim protection. The man spent almost his entire career with Ben and/or Rasheed, and then Marc Gasol. On top of that of that, his teams always had multiple quality starting bigs (Ben and Sheed, Zbo and Gasol) so despite being 6'9" with a 7'3" wingspan, he didn't play power forward almost at all until the twilight of his career. Not that he could have started at PF in the mid 2000s (man was skinny), but on most teams he would have soaked up some minutes there.

In 2007, when the Pistons let Ben Wallace walk, and only replaced him with an injury-ruined Chris Webber, Flip asked Tayshaun to do more on the backline. Especially when Rasheed Wallace wasn't on the floor, it was Tayshaun's job to anchor the paint protection (with McDyess/Webber or Mohammed/McDyess), and Prince was absolutely excellent at it. Those lineups would outplay the starters, defensively. He was such a master of planting that skinny body in the exact right place to deter drives and shot attempts. I think he is one of the best nail helpers of all-time, and in a pinch, that same skill could be used for rim protection. He wasn't a big defensive playmaker, but he was a master of contesting and deterring shots. He was mobile enough to defend anywhere on the floor, but long enough to make his contests unfair. As a man defender, he's one of the best ever at defending pull up shooters (he's had moments of making Tmac and Kobe look silly), but wasn't effective against strong drivers (he was tissue paper against Lebron).

Marion, to me, is arguably the most versatile man defender of all-time while also being an elite disruptor in the paint and strong secondary rim protection. He famously (capably) guarded both Tony Parker and Tim Duncan in the same series. There probably isn't a better combination of quick-twitch mobility and strength in NBA history (stronger than KG, twitchier than Lebron, bigger than Jordan... and those are the only guys I can think of with those kind of physical tools.) He's the opposite of Tayshaun Prince in a lot of ways: massive defensive playmaker and stocks guy, better suited to guarding Lebron than Kobe/Tmac, and spent most of his career on weak defensive teams where he was overburdened.

Like... to me, I consider Marion at the top of the list. Artest has that dominant size, strength and hands (his turnover creation was crazy) but I don't have strong feelings about Artest off the ball. AK-47 was kind of like Marion in that he was asked to prop up massively weak defensive frontcourts (Okur and Boozer?) and do everything. Ak-47 is another guy that has the freakiest tools ever. I put Marion in that group though.

Prince...I think has a case to not be last on this list. I think I'm lowest on Bowen, or view him more as a very skilled specialist (hounding the ball handlers and navigating screens). He was great on using his hands to disrupt the ball, but pushed it a little far to the point where he was a bit dangerous and forcing refs to decide his fate.

If we're using Kidd as the line (as per the original question I asked you), I'd go:

Artest, AK47, Marion (in almost any order)
Kidd
Prince, Battier, Christie, Bowen (in almost any order)

[cupcakesnake]

PG is the last position a player can make an impact on defense because they are the least versatile in who and what they can defend.

This feels like a comment transported in time from 2007.
Point guards are still typically the smallest player on the court, and size is very important defensively(!), but saying they're the least versatile... when tons of the league's most elite defenders are point guards with massive versatility... is confusing to me. This thread is littered with the opposite view, and you're just giving us this one sentence without any real justification.

This thread highlights the versatile contributions to defense that a point guard can make. Jason Kidd is the archetype, and we now have a league with guys like Caruso, Suggs, and Derrick White (and many others). I think it's time to revisit your thinking on this one.

[dhsilv2]

Gun to head at their best. But I'm very open to adjustments or some film study to move these around. I feel good about Artest. The numbers don't make me love my pick of AK47 but his shot blocking and mobility have always made him at least look the part. You could get me to flip kidd and battier or Bowen and Christie.

Artest
AK47
Kidd
Battier
Christie
Bowen
Marion
Prince

Forgot I never responded to this and now I'm re-reading. All of these players are great defenders, so I hate to see any of them low on a list, haha.

I value Marion and Prince a lot more than do, I think.

Along with AK47, Prince is the other guy on that list with center-like standing reach. He had a real ability to protect the rim, but sort of hilariously he only played on teams that had elite rim protection. The man spent almost his entire career with Ben and/or Rasheed, and then Marc Gasol. On top of that of that, his teams always had multiple quality starting bigs (Ben and Sheed, Zbo and Gasol) so despite being 6'9" with a 7'3" wingspan, he didn't play power forward almost at all until the twilight of his career. Not that he could have started at PF in the mid 2000s (man was skinny), but on most teams he would have soaked up some minutes there.

In 2007, when the Pistons let Ben Wallace walk, and only replaced him with an injury-ruined Chris Webber, Flip asked Tayshaun to do more on the backline. Especially when Rasheed Wallace wasn't on the floor, it was Tayshaun's job to anchor the paint protection (with McDyess/Webber or Mohammed/McDyess), and Prince was absolutely excellent at it. Those lineups would outplay the starters, defensively. He was such a master of planting that skinny body in the exact right place to deter drives and shot attempts. I think he is one of the best nail helpers of all-time, and in a pinch, that same skill could be used for rim protection. He wasn't a big defensive playmaker, but he was a master of contesting and deterring shots. He was mobile enough to defend anywhere on the floor, but long enough to make his contests unfair. As a man defender, he's one of the best ever at defending pull up shooters (he's had moments of making Tmac and Kobe look silly), but wasn't effective against strong drivers (he was tissue paper against Lebron).

Marion, to me, is arguably the most versatile man defender of all-time while also being an elite disruptor in the paint and strong secondary rim protection. He famously (capably) guarded both Tony Parker and Tim Duncan in the same series. There probably isn't a better combination of quick-twitch mobility and strength in NBA history (stronger than KG, twitchier than Lebron, bigger than Jordan... and those are the only guys I can think of with those kind of physical tools.) He's the opposite of Tayshaun Prince in a lot of ways: massive defensive playmaker and stocks guy, better suited to guarding Lebron than Kobe/Tmac, and spent most of his career on weak defensive teams where he was overburdened.

Like... to me, I consider Marion at the top of the list. Artest has that dominant size, strength and hands (his turnover creation was crazy) but I don't have strong feelings about Artest off the ball. AK-47 was kind of like Marion in that he was asked to prop up massively weak defensive frontcourts (Okur and Boozer?) and do everything. Ak-47 is another guy that has the freakiest tools ever. I put Marion in that group though.

Prince...I think has a case to not be last on this list. I think I'm lowest on Bowen, or view him more as a very skilled specialist (hounding the ball handlers and navigating screens). He was great on using his hands to disrupt the ball, but pushed it a little far to the point where he was a bit dangerous and forcing refs to decide his fate.

If we're using Kidd as the line (as per the original question I asked you), I'd go:

Artest, AK47, Marion (in almost any order)
Kidd
Prince, Battier, Christie, Bowen (in almost any order)

You have my reconsidering my Marion placement. You're right he's excellent off ball and can more or less guard anyone within reason.

I'm down on Prince based on one thing you covered, he was just toilet paper against Lebron. And really anyone with that power. But you do raise a good point about his rim protection as a helper. I'd not considered it much but you're right he did do that role at times and was effective.

[NZB2323]

Yeah, i’ve checked into this extensively and Kidd is the best defensive point of all time imo. He did seemingly have big man level impact.

However, there’s a large range of big man level impact. For instance, when I rewatched the Nets finals seasons, Kenyon Martin still looked like the most important defender on the team. KM was super impactful, but Kidd wasnt TOO far behind. Still landing him comfortably in big level defense, under the understanding that not every big has high level impact but on average will still surpass a guard or wing player if they are just decent. Good post though, his defense was extraordinary at the time.

Better than Gary Payton?

[oldncreaky]

PG is the last position a player can make an impact on defense because they are the least versatile in who and what they can defend.

This feels like a comment transported in time from 2007.
Point guards are still typically the smallest player on the court, and size is very important defensively(!), but saying they're the least versatile... when tons of the league's most elite defenders are point guards with massive versatility... is confusing to me. This thread is littered with the opposite view, and you're just giving us this one sentence without any real justification.

This thread highlights the versatile contributions to defense that a point guard can make. Jason Kidd is the archetype, and we now have a league with guys like Caruso, Suggs, and Derrick White (and many others). I think it's time to revisit your thinking on this one.

Agree

A PG can also have a large impact on team D by being the default/typical player guarding the opposing team's ball-handler. A team's success on O tends to go down as the shot-clock winds down. Even if a PG just stalls the advance of the ball by 2 or 3 seconds each possession, over the course of a game that will have a material impact on the opposing team's efficiency.

I also think that the importance of "Defence up the middle" is a classic thing in all sports. In Football, it's the DTs and MLBSs; in Baseball, it's the Catcher, SS, and CF; in Hockey, it's the Goalie (duh!) and the C. In basketball, this translates to the C providing rim/paint protection, and the PG defending at POA

And I still think that, in any discussion of all-time great PG defenders, Moncrief has to be included

[bkkrh]

It's generally accepted that big men have a greater impact on defense than perimeter players. This is because they spend more time protecting the paint and are naturally involved in more defensive possessions due to their positioning on the court. Sure, some centers suck at defense and have a negative impact. And some guards are defensive dynamos with the impact to match.

But when it comes to the good and especially the elite defenders at the center, forward, and guard positions, the taller timber in the frontcourt tends to have a greater impact.

Right? I think most would agree on that as a general rule. I know the analytics guys would agree. After a certain point, the top end of historical defensive on/off, statistical box-derived defensive plus-minus stats, defensive RAPM, and seasonal one-number defensive metrics is populated by centers and power forwards.

Bill Russell, Hakeem Olajuwon, David Robinson, Dikembe Mutombo, Alonzo Mourning, Kevin Garnett, Tim Duncan, Ben Wallace, Dwight Howard, Rudy Gobert, etc. These are the names we'll see first and foremost. The cream of the crop defensively. Missing a few names but that more or less covers the big hitters on defense according to the numbers.

But what if I proposed to you this question: Can an elite defensive PG impact defense as much as an elite defensive center?

What would your response be? I know, "elite defensive PG" and "elite defensive center" are vague denominations. Am I talking about those guys listed above? Or your typical elite-but-not-all-time defensive centers? Honestly, I'm not sure. But this is a question I want to pose to you, and a discussion that greatly interests me. And it's one that other posters have discussed on RealGM before.

--

Jason Kidd had an intriguing run through his prime of consistently elevating teams defensively. Whenever he joined those teams, they got better, and largely on defense. And when he left? The opposite happened.

When he joined New Jersey:

2000-01 Nets: 100.0 ORtg (-3.0 rORtg); 105.5 DRtg (+2.5 rDRtg); -5.5 net rating; -5.30 SRS; 26-56 W/L
2001-02 Nets: 104.0 ORtg (-0.5 rORtg); 99.5 DRtg (-5.0 rDRtg); +4.5 net rating; +3.67 SRS; 52-30 W/L

Change: +4.0 ORtg (+2.5 rORtg); -6.0 DRtg (-7.5 rDRtg); +10.0 net rating; +8.97 SRS; +26 wins

When he left Phoenix:

2000-01 Suns: 100.3 ORtg (-2.7 rORtg); 98.0 DRtg (-5.0 rDRtg); +2.4 net rating; 2.63 SRS; 51-31 W/L
2001-02 Suns: 103.3 ORtg (-1.2 rORtg); 104.0 DRtg (-0.5 rDRtg); -0.7 net rating; -0.29 SRS; 36-46 W/L

Change: -3.0 ORtg (+1.5 rORtg); +6.0 DRtg (+4.5 rDRtg); -3.1 net rating; -2.92 SRS; -15 wins

Even when he was traded halfway through the season to Phoenix, the defense improved dramatically in his first full season:

1996-97 Suns: 109.3 ORtg (+2.6 rORtg); 108.6 DRtg (+1.9 rDRtg); +0.7 net rating; 0.21 SRS; 40-42 W/L
1997-98 Suns: 107.4 ORtg (+2.4 rORtg); 101.8 DRtg (-3.2 rDRtg); +5.6 net rating; 4.44 SRS; 56-26 W/L

Change: -1.9 ORtg (-0.2 rORtg); -6.8 DRtg (-5.1 rDRtg); +4.9 net rating; +4.23 SRS; +16 wins

Pretty much all his new teams got better while his old ones got worse throughout his career. But I'll stick to these since they're the most dramatic and in his prime.

In his prime, Jason Kidd was seemingly elevating middling and mediocre defenses into elite ones. Look at these stretches from 1998-2006 and 2000-2004. Lockout year wasn't included because the numbers were funny across the league that season. Phoenix was a top-ranked offense which wasn't the norm for a prime Jason Kidd team.

1998 Suns: 101.8 DRtg (6th) [-3.2 rDRtg]
2000 Suns: 99.0 DRtg (3rd) [-5.1 rDRtg]
2001 Suns: 98.0 DRtg (2nd) [-5.0 rDRtg]
2002 Nets: 99.5 DRtg (1st) [-5.0 rDRtg]
2003 Nets: 98.1 DRtg [1st] [-5.5 rDRtg]
2004 Nets: 98.0 DRtg [4th] [-4.9 rDRtg]
2005 Nets: 103.1 DRtg (7th) [-3.0 rDRtg]
2006 Nets: 102.4 DRtg (4th) [-3.8 rDRtg]

1998 + 2000-2006: -4.44 rDRtg
2000-2004: -5.1 rDRtg

That's pretty crazy. For comparison, Nash's Phoenix teams from 2005-2010 had an average of +6.7 rORtg.

Six straight seasons of Nash = +6.7 rORtg
Five straight seasons of Kidd = -5.1 rDRtg

And I think Nash had the better-supporting casts that were not only more talented but a better fit for his skill set. I wonder what Kidd could've done with an appreciable, equal level of help that plays to his strengths. Imagine if he was in Detroit instead of Chauncey.

Ben Wallace, Rasheed Wallace, Tayshaun Prince, and Rip Hamilton feels like the same ballpark as Amar'e Stoudemire, Shawn Marion, Joe Johnson, and Quentin Richardson. Kidd probably would've had a few 60+ win, 7+ SRS seasons like Nash with that team. He adds to their strengths - defense - and what they lose in shooting they make up in playmaking.

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Yes, there were injuries, younger players developing, and new players being added to Phoenix and New Jersey. But I think the defensive improvements all revolve around Jason Kidd.

Kenyon Martin was doing his thing before Kidd got there, blocking shots, accumulating steals, and playing starter minutes. Didn't help the defense all that much in 2000-01. Neither did he help Denver on defense all that much when he went there. Despite future DPOY Marcus Camby also being on the team.

Jason Collins and Richard Jefferson were rookies in 2002 who played 24.3 mpg and 18.3 mpg respectively. I'm sure they helped but I'm still leaning toward Kidd being the key to it all.

My feelings are largely the same about his defensive support in Phoenix. Marion was a nice addition like Kenyon but The Suns were strong on defense in '98 before he got there and disappointing in the years after Kidd left. I'm just not blown away.

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Was Jason Kidd a generational defensive talent with an impact similar to elite defensive big men?

When I watch him, he feels in many respects like a 6'4" guard version of Garnett. While his positional qualities were elite (POA defense, getting around screens, closing out on shooters), it was his off-ball positioning, versatility, rotations, communication/quarterbacking, and defensive rebounding that set him apart. KG was a great rim protector and post-defender, but it was those other qualities I just mentioned that made him so incredible.

Naturally gifted athletes who elevated themselves on defense thanks to versatility and high basketball IQ.

Kidd is definitely one of the most underrated players, especially considering that he played in the 90s and 2000s. I can't really think of any other player who had so much proven impact on winning for multiple teams than him.

In his rookie season the Mavs basically became better over night as soon as Jim Jackson went down with injury and they handed the keys over to Kidd. The team was 20-31 with a healthy Jackson and were 16-15 without him.

8-20 Phoenix trades 2 starters and their 6th man for him and 2 bench warmers and they have a record of 23-10 in the games he plays in the rest of the season. The following season they are a 56 win team with a healthy Kidd.

The Nets trade All Star Point Guard Stephon Marbury for Kidd after not winning more than 31 games the last 3 seasons and immediatelly win 52 games and make it to the NBA finals the first season he is on the team.

You can make a solid argument for him being the best choice at Point Guard for player to start a franchise with, just based of his proven track record that his presence simply translates into winning.

[og15]

PG is the last position a player can make an impact on defense because they are the least versatile in who and what they can defend.

Too much of a generalization, we have guys who are bigger PG sized, 6'3/6'4 but play bigger and can guard 1-3. Have to be careful with just making sweeping generalizations, people love to do that way too much.