dj20001 wrote:You mentioned what Kobe did or didn't do in the 2000 Finals. If I'm not mistaken, he sprained his ankle (which takes weeks to heal in 2024) but came back to play in the very next game and took on the main defensive matchups in that series - Rose and Miller. Then Shaq fouls out in Indy and Kobe takes over in OT and LA wins. But you're focused on his scoring average.
I'm well aware of Kobe injury in 2000 finals, I watched the series a few months ago.
I am focused on scoring because the other poster didn't bring any context to Duncan averaging 13 ppg. I am the last person you can accuse on focusing on scoring alone, but the context of the conversation was very clear. If he wanted to ignore the context in a bad faith, I felt I should do the same.
2003 - Kobe has his best season to date, but Lakers lose to your Spurs. Shaq is taking time off during the season instead of taking care of his body during the off season.
OK, but that doesn't change anything I said. Kobe still had a solid team around him and Shaq still played like a superstar in the playoffs.
2005 - Missed playoffs, Shaq gone. Kobe hurt for a majority of the year. Second best player is Lamar Odom. Starting PG is Chucky Atkins. Chris Mihm at C. I'm sure Duncan would have done wonders with this squad.
Duncan wouldn't do wonders with this team, especially because he dealt with injuries that season. It's the first season in Kobe's career when he played with a bad supporting cast and the first one when he's clearly the best player on his team. I don't hold missing playoffs against him. I also don't see any reason to put Kobe ahead Duncan.
2006-2007 - Dude went CRAZY. Same crappy roster, added a young Bynum and Vladimir Radmonovic, previously of Sonics fame. Luke Walton is the starting SF along with Smush Parker at PG. Kwame Brown or Mihm at C depending on who was available. Lamar Odom has admitted to having a drug issue during this span. Kobe gets blasted for losing to the Suns even though it was 2/7 matchup. I know for a fact Tim Duncan would have gone bonkers with this Lakers roster.
These two seasons Kobe didn't have much help and I praise him for winning enough games to make the playoffs. After these two seasons, he would never have had another one with weak team around him until he left his prime.
Duncan wouldn't have won much with these teams, but it doesn't mean Kobe was better during that time.
2008-2010 - Three straight Finals appearances, back to back dubs. The GREAT Pau Gasol joins the squad, somehow viewed as an underpay for a one time all star, no time anything else at that point in the league. Kobe gets one, one time all star and immediately makes the Finals and then wins the next two. Swapping Ariza for Artest is the beginning of the end.
Amazing stretch, by far the best in Kobe's career.
You are selling his team a bit short though. Pau was a legitimate all-star level player then, no matter what voters who never watch Grizzlies games think. They also had very deep team with Odom, Ariza/Artest and many solid roleplayers, on top of arguably the most accomplished coach in the history of the league.
It's not a superteam by any means, but it's far from a weak cast.
Duncan wouldn't have made the Finals any of the years with this roster and Pau would not have been traded for.
I don't see 2008-10 Lakers to be any less talented than 2007 Spurs.
So I'm supposed to agree, that I'm overrating a player who was in the Finals 7 out of 12 seasons? Winning 5 of them? And this includes a three year stretch of not making the playoffs at all, then losing in the first round the next two seasons?
I think you didn't understand the context of my original post. My point wasn't to show that Kobe sucked, only that by his own criteria, Kobe shouldn't even touch top 10 - criteria that are completely ridiculous.
To be honest, I expected a little more. These are all very well known facts and you didn't teach me anything new. If you honestly thought that I didn't know about tough moments in 2005-07 or that I didn't know Lakers success after that or that I lacked the idea of how their rosters were built, then you sold me way too short here. I'm basketball history geek, I can tell you these things in sleep.