Lebron won’t be on top 10 GOAT lists in 30 years

[Hair Jordan]

If anyone starts falling off in 30 years, it'll be MJ first, not LeBron

Also the reason why Wilt has aged poorly isn't because of his Finals record, if anything it's because people have access to game film from that time and what they see isn't matching up with the legends told. It'll be more similar for MJ in 30 years when people talk about how mystical he is but then you go back and watch the film and he isn't nearly as perfect as people say

But at the same time, Wilt is still pretty universally in the top 10, top 15 at worst among people being serious.

MJ’s rookie year was 40 years ago so your thesis about him falling off in 30 years doesn’t hold water since the near universal consensus has him as the GOAT. Do you really believe film of Jordan will hurt his case? That doesn’t even make sense. Kevin Durant says he sits around and watches Jordan highlights when his friends come over. Game film will preserve Jordan’s GOATness, not take away from it. What I said was that Lebron’s losing Finals record overall, his losing Finals record to Curry (1-3) and his Goliath physicality will age poorly, just like Wilt. So far you’re not denying it.

[Ice Trae]

OP thought he was cookin

[Optms]

If future generations start moving the goal posts and doing what we kind of see now: IE discrediting eras because they can't argue the accomplishments (90s/80s/Jordan) or moving retired played higher and higher on the rankings, turning their status into mythical figures (Duncan, Nash).

If those things happen then yes, they will change the entire top 10. Hopefully rationale basketball fans still exist 30 years from now.

[DOT]

OP thought he was cookin

[infinite11285]

Who can say? 30 years ago, Lebron, Duncan, Shaq and Kobe etc weren’t on anyone’s top 10 list.

I know this may be a novel idea, but it's ok to be a fan of both MJ and LeBron.

There's no need to distort logic and reality to these lengths to prop one over the other. They're both among the best the game has ever experienced.

How am I distorting reality?

Wilt is top 10 and so is Kareem. What am I missing here?

Also, Lebron’s legacy is a lot better than Wilt’s. Lebron has:

2x more championships
3x more Finals MVPs

Meh, those are all cumulative/longevity related stats you mentioned.

For starters, you attributed 2 rings and 3 FMVPS to longevity, not to mention being the all-time leader in points (both in the regular season and post-season) while having a strong chance of cracking a career +43k points, +10k rebounds, and +10k assists, which no player will break during our lifetimes. Accomplishing that production throughout a career goes far beyond longevity; it requires sustained excellence at the highest level. He's accomplished every career accomplishment except the DPOY and rewrote the record books, but will slide out of the Top 10?

[Roger Murdock]

There’s a chance that LeBron isn’t viewed as a top 10 player in 30 years but if it happens it means that we have an *explosion* of NBA talent starting basically right now, that pushes everyone down.

LeBron has a top 3 peak and top 2 longevity in NBA history. His career overlaps directly with the wave of social media. Jordan, Bird, Magic, etc have romanticized careers because they played when sports coverage was handled by analysts and broadcasters. At the start of LeBrons career, social media, message boards, and blogs were in their infancy. Sports coverage went from analysis to hot take culture led by Skip Bayless. Fast forward a few years, Twitter, podcasts, everyone has a voice and the more critical and negative voices get more clicks. Negativity sells considerably easier than positivity and LeBron has been the post boy for hot takes because he was pegged as the chosen one.

LeBron has been in the league for 20 years. Nobody that has joined the NBA has been anywhere even close to usurping him as the next GOAT level player.

-KD, Wade and Steph - worse peaks, worse playoff performances, less longevity
-Harden - lol
-Davis and Zion failed to live up to the hype
-Jokic and Giannis are the surprise superstars but both peaks hit too late and Giannis already has more playoff failures than LeBron and a worse peak. I can’t see Jokic getting there
-Doncic looked like the next guy but hasn’t had same trajectory as LeBron
-Maybe Wemby?

That’s 20 years and 0 players with comparable peak or longevity. You need both.

[nikster]

Lebron's games are all filmed! Wilt's 100 point game wasn't filmed...the hoops you're going through here are absurd.

Really? All of Jordan’s games are in film and youngsters are still comparing him unfavorably to guys like Anthony Edwards They’re saying he’s a modern day DeMar DeRozan with no left hand who played against weak athletes and competition even though Jordan’s last game and Lebron’s first game were just 6 months apart.

Stop with the made up nonsense. I'm sure you can find a random troll sick of older guys talking crap, but nobody seriously thinks any of this. It isn't being said here. You're just making crap up.

Just realized this is the guy that created the thread lol. What a waste of time

[infinite11285]

-KD, Wade and Steph - worse peaks, worse playoff performances, less longevity
-Harden - lol
-Davis and Zion failed to live up to the hype
-Jokic and Giannis are the surprise superstars but both peaks hit too late and Giannis already has more playoff failures than LeBron and a worse peak. I can’t see Jokic getting there
-Doncic looked like the next guy but hasn’t had same trajectory as LeBron
-Maybe Wemby?

That’s 20 years and 0 players with comparable peak or longevity. You need both.

Exactly, and even KD acknowledged how difficult it is to accomplish what LeBron has:

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/ho7UjtoE-tc

Wemby has a chance but he must be "Wemby" until he retires. LeBron's averaging 25/7/8 in year 21...like, what are we really talking about here?

[og15]

It might be time for us to get OP off the laptop, phone, whatever it is. There should be a limit of nonsense threads made before you get your thread making privileges taken away.

[dhsilv2]

-Jokic and Giannis are the surprise superstars but both peaks hit too late and Giannis already has more playoff failures than LeBron and a worse peak. I can’t see Jokic getting there

I don't think Jokic or Giannis got there too late. I'm not sure either's peak isn't comparable either. I'm less bullish on Giannis, but Jokic's peak (now) is very comparable and he's going on his 4th season dominating in a way only Lebron, Kareem and MJ did. Jokic needs about 4 more years of this level of play...but that's only pushing him to about 32-33...completely doable.

[MavsDirk41]

Nah no chance of this happening. I think he will always be on the Mount Rushmore of nba legends.

[Roger Murdock]

-Jokic and Giannis are the surprise superstars but both peaks hit too late and Giannis already has more playoff failures than LeBron and a worse peak. I can’t see Jokic getting there

I don't think Jokic or Giannis got there too late. I'm not sure either's peak isn't comparable either. I'm less bullish on Giannis, but Jokic's peak (now) is very comparable and he's going on his 4th season dominating in a way only Lebron, Kareem and MJ did. Jokic needs about 4 more years of this level of play...but that's only pushing him to about 32-33...completely doable.

I agree Jokic is most likely player of the last 20 years to challenge LeBron

-closest peak to LeBron
-most consistent
-dominant post season player
-game that projects well as he ages

The issue is… LeBrons production and team success age 18-25 dwarves Jokic’s, which means Jokic is starting in a huge hole. Further making it worse, LeBron is building the best age 35+ profile in NBA history. So Jokic needs to comfortably outperform LeBrons 26-34 years to be on his level. I think it’s possible but unlikely. He’s the only maybe on the list though (besides Wemby)

[DOT]

-KD, Wade and Steph - worse peaks, worse playoff performances, less longevity
-Harden - lol
-Davis and Zion failed to live up to the hype
-Jokic and Giannis are the surprise superstars but both peaks hit too late and Giannis already has more playoff failures than LeBron and a worse peak. I can’t see Jokic getting there
-Doncic looked like the next guy but hasn’t had same trajectory as LeBron
-Maybe Wemby?

That’s 20 years and 0 players with comparable peak or longevity. You need both.

Exactly, and even KD acknowledged how difficult it is to accomplish what LeBron has:

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/ho7UjtoE-tc

Wemby has a chance but he must be "Wemby" until he retires. LeBron's averaging 25/7/8 in year 21...like, what are we really talking about here?

I just think about how Doncic's rookie year we got all these people hyping him up as the guy to surpass LeBron, but not even 5 years later he's already off track

It's hard to do, to put it mildly. Especially since right now the league is at its most even, in the last 3 years no team has repeated even making the Finals (I looked and that hasn't been done since the 80s I think), let alone the fact that each of the last 5 champions have been a different team, with 2 of those 5 having never won a title before, and the Bucks not winning since 1971

Right now we're in an era of unprecedented parity. Objectively it's a great time to be a fan of the sport, but we got all these salty old boomers complaining still.

[Hornet Mania]

It's possible the 'Lebron is GOAT' talk settles down after he retires, but not all the way out of the top 10. Not a chance.

[dhsilv2]

-Jokic and Giannis are the surprise superstars but both peaks hit too late and Giannis already has more playoff failures than LeBron and a worse peak. I can’t see Jokic getting there

I don't think Jokic or Giannis got there too late. I'm not sure either's peak isn't comparable either. I'm less bullish on Giannis, but Jokic's peak (now) is very comparable and he's going on his 4th season dominating in a way only Lebron, Kareem and MJ did. Jokic needs about 4 more years of this level of play...but that's only pushing him to about 32-33...completely doable.

I agree Jokic is most likely player of the last 20 years to challenge LeBron

-closest peak to LeBron
-most consistent
-dominant post season player
-game that projects well as he ages

The issue is… LeBrons production and team success age 18-25 dwarves Jokic’s, which means Jokic is starting in a huge hole. Further making it worse, LeBron is building the best age 35+ profile in NBA history. So Jokic needs to comfortably outperform LeBrons 26-34 years to be on his level. I think it’s possible but unlikely. He’s the only maybe on the list though (besides Wemby)

Lebron made the playoffs 5 times to Jokic's 3. Neither lost in a first round. Lebron 2 conference finals and one finals vs Jokic just one conference finals.

PER 26.0 vs 26.9. WS/48 0.228 vs 0.224 BPM 8.0 vs 9.0

Now certainly lebron played more minutes and games but even early on their play while on the court was pretty damn close. I think a lot of people see Jokic not making allstar games and all nba's while not seeing that he was playing like an allstar/all nba guy from maybe even his rookie season.

Now certainly longevity is going to be a question, we'll see how that goes. But I think most of us put a bit more weight to peak and length of dominance. We'll see how long Jokic an keep this up.

[Hair Jordan]

It might be time for us to get OP off the laptop, phone, whatever it is. There should be a limit of nonsense threads made before you get your thread making privileges taken away.

You’re right. This forum seems like it’s patrolled by a bunch of kids who probably started watching the NBA around 2000 yet act like they have the requisite perspective to opine about players, teams, strategies and philosophies from earlier basketball eras. The mods seem to back up these kids to keep the status quo around here. Forgive me for thinking outside of the box with my topics and for trying to engage in a spirited debate. I’ll leave you to yourselves

[dygaction]

If you count MJ, Hakeem, Duncan, Shaq, LeBron, Kobe, Steph as top 10, some might argue Jokic, Giannis are knocking on the door with more success, then there would be only 3 players from 30 years ago. There is a good chance better players evolve with modern training and international talents getting in, so not likely but certainly a possibility.

[Hair Jordan]

If you count MJ, Hakeem, Duncan, Shaq, LeBron, Kobe, Steph as top 10, some might argue Jokic, Giannis are knocking on the door with more success, then there would be only 3 players from 30 years ago. There is a good chance better players evolve with modern training and international talents getting in, so not likely but certainly a possibility.

Giannis can knock on the door for the rest of his life. Ain’t nobody gonna open it for him.

[infinite11285]

It might be time for us to get OP off the laptop, phone, whatever it is. There should be a limit of nonsense threads made before you get your thread making privileges taken away.

You’re right. This forum seems like it’s patrolled by a bunch of kids who probably started watching the NBA around 2000 yet act like they have the requisite perspective to opine about players, teams, strategies and philosophies from earlier basketball eras. The mods seem to back up these kids to keep the status quo around here. Forgive me for thinking outside of the box with my topics and for trying to engage in a spirited debate. I’ll leave you to yourselves

You just gave away your schtick.

Relax

[ghillphx]

OP has a crystal ball. Lebron living rent free in OP's head