Is Brunson the best Knick since Ewing?

[Texas Chuck]

Chandler was better for sure. Kidd wasn't. Yet once again here is Kidd joining a team and they immediately get way better.

How was Chandler better 'for sure' in your eyes? The only argument I can possibly think of is a 'portability' one where Chandler would theoretically slot better next to other star players...because Melo definitely had the most impact on that specific 2013 team, as many warts as he had.

I'm not sure the portability argument works either. Would Chandler retain more of his impact compared to Melo on a team that already has 2 perimeter stars, sure. Is the actual value of the impact greater, no idts.

Brunson clears both though.

Chandler was having DPOY level play during this period. This is high level impact period. Melo was exclusively a first option scorer, but not one good enough for a contending level team. Players like this are the ultimate ceiling cappers. This is DeRozan. This is Randle. These guys appear to be the best players because they have the ball the most, score the most points, but its somewhat fool's gold.

Chandler is never going to convince a casual he's doing more. Any more than they can see Gobert is more impactful than Towns on the current Wolves. Doesn't change the fact that those defensive centers are the clear cut better player for the team. Or even worse we still have a bunch of posters here who think Klay was more important than Draymond...

[JimmyFromNz]

I enjoy the odd shot at Melo, but Chandler better than Melo on those NYK teams ? That seems creative.

It wasn't a question at the time, and I doubt from anyone closely following those teams it would be today.

If it is an 'impact' argument (playing exclusively one side of the ball, whilst we negate Melo for playing the other) there are few impact metrics that support a conclusion - arbitrary WS totals or being equally as poor as Melo in unreliable RAPM numbers maybe?

Contextually (its important) the DPOY race was historically as underwhelming as it got due to Dwight's injury (if i recall correctly) and the fact voters simply wouldn't consider anyone outside of a traditional big as being worthy. It was more than anything a carry over from the Dallas run. The media's attention span would proceed to do a complete U-turn on Tyson the following seasons and he never garnered any serious consideration following that.

[tsherkin]

Chandler was better for sure. Kidd wasn't. Yet once again here is Kidd joining a team and they immediately get way better.

I could buy Chandler as comparable, but I hesitate to say "better" because Melo's impact on O was close to the average Durant season in those two years, while Chandler offered only so much on O and gave it all through D. Still, those were some of the best years of his career, so it's certainly an interesting discussion.

Kidd definitely had a positive impact during the RS. We've known that Melo benefits much from a traditional game manager-type point guard since 2009 when he first enjoyed Billups, of course, so that isn't a surprise. Didn't meant to dismiss Kidd's contribution, just note that he wasn't the highest-impact guy on the team.

[tsherkin]

It wasn't a question at the time, and I doubt from anyone closely following those teams it would be today.

That doesn't mean anything at all, as it happens. Media and fans miss things we now consider basic all the time, especially whilst clinging to old narratives. I don't think Chandler was obviously better than Melo either, but it sounds like you're dismissing Chandler's impact and trying to heavily undersell him.

He'd been top 3 in the DPOY race in 2011 when he was busy titling with Dallas and was a huge part of the defense which helped support Dirk during that run. He was a very good player; that he didn't score a lot doesn't change that.

[MiamiBulls]

I enjoy the odd shot at Melo, but Chandler better than Melo on those NYK teams ? That seems creative.

Not just creative, it's flat earther-like logic.

2013 NYK had the same 106 Defensive Rating with or without Tyson Chandler on the floor. With Tyson on-court & w/Carmelo off the floor the 2013 NYK had roughly the 8th Worst Defense in the NBA.

With Carmelo on the floor without Tyson, the Knicks were still playing at roughly a 49-50 Win Pace. The 2014 NYK Season was more of the same, there isn't anything that suggest Tyson Chandler was the best player on the Knicks in the 2013 & 2014 Seasons.

[Colbinii]

Comparing Chandler and Melo is incredibly difficult.

One has the responsibility of handling a massive offensive load. In fact, Carmelo Anthony had the highest Usage Rate in the NBA in 2013 at 35.6%. He maintained efficiency in this role exceptionally well, touting a mere 9.3 TOV% and rocking a 6.0 OBPM for the 3rd best offense in the NBA. That's some incredible combination of offensive scoring volume/load combined with offensive efficiency, especially when looking at his 35.6% Usage in combination with his +87.0 TS+.

Yeah, I don't really enjoy Carmelo Anthony either, but his 2013 season is quite impressive.

[tsherkin]

Comparing Chandler and Melo is incredibly difficult.

One has the responsibility of handling a massive offensive load. In fact, Carmelo Anthony had the highest Usage Rate in the NBA in 2013 at 35.6%. He maintained efficiency in this role exceptionally well, touting a mere 9.3 TOV% and rocking a 6.0 OBPM for the 3rd best offense in the NBA. That's some incredible combination of offensive scoring volume/load combined with offensive efficiency, especially when looking at his 35.6% Usage in combination with his +87.0 TS+.

Yeah, I don't really enjoy Carmelo Anthony either, but his 2013 season is quite impressive.

2013 and 2014 were certainly his best seasons. Sneak 09 in there. He was playing quite well on O. Very strong tier 2 guy.

[Outside]

It's small sample size theater, but I can see the case for it -- he's been the best player since arriving in New York, and he played very well in the playoffs last season (11 games). I'd like to see how he does in the postseason again, ideally over a longer stretch. I enjoy watching him play.

[1993Playoffs]

I just think saying Chandler > Melo is just taking it too far

[Eagle4]

Lol like a few above said saying Chandler was better than Melo is/was about as similar as those who claim Gasol was the MVP for the Lakers in '10. Going a little overboard with that assertion, I get Melo is seen as a ball stopper, not a winner yada yada yada but c'mon.


Chandler, as impactful a defender that he was from '11-13 wasn't a Dwight Howard for instance. Peak Melo was easily a top 10 player, Chandler was never that good.

[SportsGuru08]

I would say yes but that isn't a very high bar to clear. They've been dreadful for over 2 decades now

[JimmyFromNz]

It wasn't a question at the time, and I doubt from anyone closely following those teams it would be today.

That doesn't mean anything at all, as it happens. Media and fans miss things we now consider basic all the time, especially whilst clinging to old narratives. I don't think Chandler was obviously better than Melo either, but it sounds like you're dismissing Chandler's impact and trying to heavily undersell him.

He'd been top 3 in the DPOY race in 2011 when he was busy titling with Dallas and was a huge part of the defense which helped support Dirk during that run. He was a very good player; that he didn't score a lot doesn't change that.

Honestly that's an odd thing to hone in on. It's just a basic observation (it's not wrong is it), not some decisive point being made.

There is obviously more to my post...

Given you don't think Chandler was better, you acknowledge, like I do, his role on the Mavs the previous year and we both accept he was a very good player - I'm left with the question what are we doing here?

It's my opinion he was an underwhelming DPOY winner, the individual and team metrics back that up, and yes my own experience (narrative?) of those years. Sorry!

[One_and_Done]

Yes. He is.

[tsherkin]

It wasn't a question at the time, and I doubt from anyone closely following those teams it would be today.

That doesn't mean anything at all, as it happens. Media and fans miss things we now consider basic all the time, especially whilst clinging to old narratives. I don't think Chandler was obviously better than Melo either, but it sounds like you're dismissing Chandler's impact and trying to heavily undersell him.

He'd been top 3 in the DPOY race in 2011 when he was busy titling with Dallas and was a huge part of the defense which helped support Dirk during that run. He was a very good player; that he didn't score a lot doesn't change that.

Honestly that's an odd thing to hone in on. It's just a basic observation (it's not wrong is it), not some decisive point being made.

There is obviously more to my post...

Given you don't think Chandler was better, you acknowledge, like I do, his role on the Mavs the previous year and we both accept he was a very good player - I'm left with the question what are we doing here?

It's my opinion he was an underwhelming DPOY winner, the individual and team metrics back that up, and yes my own experience (narrative?) of those years. Sorry!

I'm not asking you to apologize.

My point was a more general remark about how whether or not it was a question at the time isn't a salient point, because people make mistakes all the time.

Chandler was a very good defender and he was in contention even before he won it, though, so the attempt to diminish him wasn't really appropriate. More relevant, though, was my first remark: the further you go back, the worst basketball fans and analysts were about overcoming logical fallacies, inherent biases and acknowledging things which have actually been disproven, so what was said in the early 2010s isn't always substantive commentary.

[TroubleS0me]

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[GSP]

Mavs 22 Wcf run makes alot more sense now

I was wondering how a team w/ Dinwiddie, Bullock and Dfs as 3 of their top 5 leading Ppg went to Wcf...... Whole time they had 2 superstars lol and Brunson was out playing Mitchell and had them up 2-1 with some absurd performances w/o Luka that run

[Mickey8]

Its the testament to the Knicks being the horrible franchise.

[trex_8063]

13 and 14 Melo were pretty good on O. Brunson is roughly matching the scoring volume and is a considerably better playmaker, so his impact is similar, but due to the league environment, him rocking 58.8% TS is only +0.7% rTS, which takes some of the luster off compared to how Carmelo's 56.0% was +2.5%.

*shrug*

Net impact on O is similar enough, though. It's sort of the Derrick Rose routine, you know? Bleh volume scoring relative to the league on a team which needs it, but playmaking taking the impact onward and upward. Could make a decent argument either way in a vacuum, but I think Brunson is better for this Knicks team than would Melo be, and I don't think that any grand revelation.

Now, if you put Brunson in 2013 and he replicated these exact numbers, he'd be a +5.3% rTS guy AND the better playmaker, and even if you took a few percentage points off of Brunson's finishing inside the arc and shaved a bit off his FTr, he's still an easy book for 55%+ TS back in 2013 due to his shooting ability.

Tough call. Era and positional/role differences make these things not line up super well. Melo was basically having one of the best seasons of his career in both 2013 and 2014 regular seasons, so it's a good comparison and fun to think about, regardless.

I'd add to this that Brunson has seemed [to my limited eye] a respectable defender at his position, too.
Melo was......well, not.

I think RCM88X said it correctly: in raw/absolutes, yes, I think he is the best since Ewing. Relative to the league during years in question, '13 Melo might still have an edge.

[Doctor MJ]

I enjoy the odd shot at Melo, but Chandler better than Melo on those NYK teams ? That seems creative.

It wasn't a question at the time, and I doubt from anyone closely following those teams it would be today.

If it is an 'impact' argument (playing exclusively one side of the ball, whilst we negate Melo for playing the other) there are few impact metrics that support a conclusion - arbitrary WS totals or being equally as poor as Melo in unreliable RAPM numbers maybe?

Contextually (its important) the DPOY race was historically as underwhelming as it got due to Dwight's injury (if i recall correctly) and the fact voters simply wouldn't consider anyone outside of a traditional big as being worthy. It was more than anything a carry over from the Dallas run. The media's attention span would proceed to do a complete U-turn on Tyson the following seasons and he never garnered any serious consideration following that.

Not really looking to take a stand on the player comparison, but I'll say that it was indeed something that was discussed at the time.