NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2023-24 (Part 5: So who's winning MVP? )

[Wolfgang630]

Comparing Luka's 2024 season to Jokic's 2022 just doesn't work. The Nuggets were without their 2nd and 3rd (MPJ played the first 9 games only) best players all year. If you look at that roster, most of those players are either not in the league anymore or barely get any playing time. Yet, they still won 48 games.

Right and Luka has had a poor team this year too. Point is that the team argument and wins seems irrelevant based on past.

It's going to come down to Jokic v Luka as players this season.

He has Kyrie Irving. Give me a break. Joker never had jamal. Irving has won games for the Mavs

[zimpy27]

Comparing Luka's 2024 season to Jokic's 2022 just doesn't work. The Nuggets were without their 2nd and 3rd (MPJ played the first 9 games only) best players all year. If you look at that roster, most of those players are either not in the league anymore or barely get any playing time. Yet, they still won 48 games.

Right and Luka has had a poor team this year too. Point is that the team argument and wins seems irrelevant based on past.

It's going to come down to Jokic v Luka as players this season.

He has Kyrie Irving. Give me a break. Joker never had jamal. Irving has won games for the Mavs

Kyrie has been good but Mavs have still had a tumultuous season. Consistency counts.


Nuggets 21-22 season most used 5-man lineup: 761 minutes (Morris, Barton, Green, Gordon, Jokic)

Mavericks 23-24 season most used 5-man lineup: 122 minutes (Doncic, Kyrie, DJJ, PJ, Gafford)

[AleksandarN]

Right and Luka has had a poor team this year too. Point is that the team argument and wins seems irrelevant based on past.

It's going to come down to Jokic v Luka as players this season.

He has Kyrie Irving. Give me a break. Joker never had jamal. Irving has won games for the Mavs

Kyrie has been good but Mavs have still had a tumultuous season. Consistency counts.


Nuggets 21-22 season most used 5-man lineup: 761 minutes (Morris, Barton, Green, Gordon, Jokic)

Mavericks 23-24 season most used 5-man lineup: 122 minutes (Doncic, Kyrie, DJJ, PJ, Gafford)

Of that 21- 22 lineup how many of those are starter material? Two. Let’s start there. Heck one of them is not even in the league anymore. Barton plays in Russia. A country that has no problem jailing American basketball players. How low can you go

[zimpy27]

He has Kyrie Irving. Give me a break. Joker never had jamal. Irving has won games for the Mavs

Kyrie has been good but Mavs have still had a tumultuous season. Consistency counts.


Nuggets 21-22 season most used 5-man lineup: 761 minutes (Morris, Barton, Green, Gordon, Jokic)

Mavericks 23-24 season most used 5-man lineup: 122 minutes (Doncic, Kyrie, DJJ, PJ, Gafford)

Of that 21- 22 lineup how many of those are starter material? Two. Let’s start there. Heck one of them is not even in the league anymore. Barton plays in Russia. A country that has no problem jailing American basketball players. How low can you go

I don't see the relevance, my post has illustrated the insane levels of inconsistency on the Mavs this year. This stuff matters. Voters know that the Mavs have had a lot of issues this year, like Jokic Nuggets had in 21-22 season.

Point is that Doncic vs SGA vs Jokic will likely end up being the discussion this year and team record won't be a big factor.

[AleksandarN]

Kyrie has been good but Mavs have still had a tumultuous season. Consistency counts.


Nuggets 21-22 season most used 5-man lineup: 761 minutes (Morris, Barton, Green, Gordon, Jokic)

Mavericks 23-24 season most used 5-man lineup: 122 minutes (Doncic, Kyrie, DJJ, PJ, Gafford)

Of that 21- 22 lineup how many of those are starter material? Two. Let’s start there. Heck one of them is not even in the league anymore. Barton plays in Russia. A country that has no problem jailing American basketball players. How low can you go

I don't see the relevance, my post has illustrated the insane levels of inconsistency on the Mavs this year. This stuff matters. Voters know that the Mavs have had a lot of issues this year, like Jokic Nuggets had in 21-22 season.

Point is that Doncic vs SGA vs Jokic will likely end up being the discussion this year and team record won't be a big factor.

You brought up the comparison to both teams. The talent difference is immense. That’s why I brought it up. Jokic had the worse team. I don’t see it. The talent level was no where the same

[QPR]

Point is that Doncic vs SGA vs Jokic will likely end up being the discussion this year and team record won't be a big factor.

If we're discounting team record and advanced stats, what will be the big factor?

It feels like everyone is giving Luka a big boost because the Mavs have finally got their act together, while Jokic keeping the Nuggets at the top from start to finish is being downplayed.

Recency bias was a factor last season and it would be disappointing if that repeated itself. It's a full season award, not just since the AS break.

[Special_Puppy]

Kyrie has been good but Mavs have still had a tumultuous season. Consistency counts.


Nuggets 21-22 season most used 5-man lineup: 761 minutes (Morris, Barton, Green, Gordon, Jokic)

Mavericks 23-24 season most used 5-man lineup: 122 minutes (Doncic, Kyrie, DJJ, PJ, Gafford)

Of that 21- 22 lineup how many of those are starter material? Two. Let’s start there. Heck one of them is not even in the league anymore. Barton plays in Russia. A country that has no problem jailing American basketball players. How low can you go

I don't see the relevance, my post has illustrated the insane levels of inconsistency on the Mavs this year. This stuff matters. Voters know that the Mavs have had a lot of issues this year, like Jokic Nuggets had in 21-22 season.

Point is that Doncic vs SGA vs Jokic will likely end up being the discussion this year and team record won't be a big factor.

Record wasn't a big deal in 2021-22 because the teams of the top 3 candidates performed roughly the same. The Thunder might finish 9 games ahead of the Mavericks. That's a material difference from 2021-22!

[G R E Y]

Read on Twitter

[MoneyTalks41890]

:o

Read on Twitter

Date check

[zimpy27]

Point is that Doncic vs SGA vs Jokic will likely end up being the discussion this year and team record won't be a big factor.

If we're discounting team record and advanced stats, what will be the big factor?

It feels like everyone is giving Luka a big boost because the Mavs have finally got their act together, while Jokic keeping the Nuggets at the top from start to finish is being downplayed.

Recency bias was a factor last season and it would be disappointing if that repeated itself. It's a full season award, not just since the AS break.

Luka been playing well all season and he's been getting better all season.

Narrative is always the main factor when you tick the boxes. It's the MVP vote.

[G R E Y]

:o

Read on Twitter

Date check

Just let me have it and enjoy it

[Infinite Llamas]

Right and Luka has had a poor team this year too. Point is that the team argument and wins seems irrelevant based on past.

It's going to come down to Jokic v Luka as players this season.

He has Kyrie Irving. Give me a break. Joker never had jamal. Irving has won games for the Mavs

Kyrie has been good but Mavs have still had a tumultuous season. Consistency counts.


Nuggets 21-22 season most used 5-man lineup: 761 minutes (Morris, Barton, Green, Gordon, Jokic)

Mavericks 23-24 season most used 5-man lineup: 122 minutes (Doncic, Kyrie, DJJ, PJ, Gafford)

Who cares about consistency if most of the players are backups or fringe rotation players?

[zimpy27]

He has Kyrie Irving. Give me a break. Joker never had jamal. Irving has won games for the Mavs

Kyrie has been good but Mavs have still had a tumultuous season. Consistency counts.


Nuggets 21-22 season most used 5-man lineup: 761 minutes (Morris, Barton, Green, Gordon, Jokic)

Mavericks 23-24 season most used 5-man lineup: 122 minutes (Doncic, Kyrie, DJJ, PJ, Gafford)

Who cares about consistency if most of the players are backups or fringe rotation players?

Consistency matters more because you are dealing with fringe rotation players and backups.

[AleksandarN]

Kyrie has been good but Mavs have still had a tumultuous season. Consistency counts.


Nuggets 21-22 season most used 5-man lineup: 761 minutes (Morris, Barton, Green, Gordon, Jokic)

Mavericks 23-24 season most used 5-man lineup: 122 minutes (Doncic, Kyrie, DJJ, PJ, Gafford)

Who cares about consistency if most of the players are backups or fringe rotation players?

Consistency matters more because you are dealing with fringe rotation players and backups.

Still doesn’t over come the sheer talent drop off between the two teams. Heck Luka had a better team last year than jokic and they didn’t make the playoffs. That team besides Jokic was terrible. Consistency was not the reason they won 48 games. The talent level doesn’t make sense to compare

[Infinite Llamas]

Kyrie has been good but Mavs have still had a tumultuous season. Consistency counts.


Nuggets 21-22 season most used 5-man lineup: 761 minutes (Morris, Barton, Green, Gordon, Jokic)

Mavericks 23-24 season most used 5-man lineup: 122 minutes (Doncic, Kyrie, DJJ, PJ, Gafford)

Who cares about consistency if most of the players are backups or fringe rotation players?

Consistency matters more because you are dealing with fringe rotation players and backups.

That season proves you can give Jokic trash and he can still carve out 40+ wins and steal a playoff game from the eventual champs. It was one of the most historic Carey jobs in the history of the sport. I mean, does that team even win 10 games without Jokic??

[zimpy27]

Who cares about consistency if most of the players are backups or fringe rotation players?

Consistency matters more because you are dealing with fringe rotation players and backups.

That season proves you can give Jokic trash and he can still carve out 40+ wins and steal a playoff game from the eventual champs. It was one of the most historic Carey jobs in the history of the sport. I mean, does that team even win 10 games without Jokic??

Yeah he was great that year. Not taking anything from Jokic. Just pointing out that Mavs have been in disarray, I think they must have a record for least minutes the top lineup have had together. No one seems to be giving Doncic credit playing through adversity.

Jokic missed 8 games and the team played to a 21-win pace without him, Murray and MPJ.

[Gatorade Sax]

Why did you move my thread into this one?

It's egregious SAS has a vote.

It's egregious, it's blasphemous, it's undermining the sanctity of the game we love
- in SAS voice


MVP is voted on by media, it's an imperfect award but even a guy like SAS has only small part on the vote. I wouldn't worry.

First sentence gave me Jackie Chiles vibes (the lawyer from Seinfeld). If you know, you know.

[BelgradeNugget]

Right and Luka has had a poor team this year too. Point is that the team argument and wins seems irrelevant based on past.

It's going to come down to Jokic v Luka as players this season.

He has Kyrie Irving. Give me a break. Joker never had jamal. Irving has won games for the Mavs

Kyrie has been good but Mavs have still had a tumultuous season. Consistency counts.


Nuggets 21-22 season most used 5-man lineup: 761 minutes (Morris, Barton, Green, Gordon, Jokic)

Mavericks 23-24 season most used 5-man lineup: 122 minutes (Doncic, Kyrie, DJJ, PJ, Gafford)

Nuggets 21-22 2-man lineups

A. Gordon - N. Jokic 1999 min
N. Jokic - M. Morris 1903 min
W. Barton - N. Jokic 1779 min
J. Green - N. Jokic 1338 min

Mavericks 23-24 2-man lineups

D. Jones Jr. - L. Doncic 1222 min
T. Hardaway Jr. - L. Doncic 1201 min
K. Irving - L. Doncic 1150 min
L. Doncic - D. Lively II 1075 min

With all their injury problems Doncic played with all-nba quality player for 1000+ minutes. Jokic, didn't.

2021-22 season. Games won by a team when player playes. I made a cut at 24 ppg.

Devin Booker PHX 56
Jayson Tatum BOS 49
Nikola Jokic DEN 46
Giannis Antetokounmpo MIL 45
Joel Embiid PHI 45
Stephen Curry GSW 45
Karl-Anthony Towns MIN 44
Luka Doncic DAL 44
DeMar DeRozan CHI 43

2023-24

Jayson Tatum BOS 55
Shai Gilgeous-Alexander OKC 51
Nikola Jokic DEN 50
Anthony Edwards MIN 49
Damian Lillard MIL 46
Giannis Antetokounmpo MIL 44
Jalen Brunson NYK 43
Luka Doncic DAL 42

So in 2021-22 Jokic won because he was better than compeition, not because Denver was 6th sead. He was also the best, by far in all advanced stats.

This season Doncic doesn't have a strong argument for MVP, as Jokic had in 2022. On the other hand player that has very strong argument, and is being ignored for some reason is SGA.

[AleksandarN]

Consistency matters more because you are dealing with fringe rotation players and backups.

That season proves you can give Jokic trash and he can still carve out 40+ wins and steal a playoff game from the eventual champs. It was one of the most historic Carey jobs in the history of the sport. I mean, does that team even win 10 games without Jokic??

Yeah he was great that year. Not taking anything from Jokic. Just pointing out that Mavs have been in disarray, I think they must have a record for least minutes the top lineup have had together. No one seems to be giving Doncic credit playing through adversity.

Jokic missed 8 games and the team played to a 21-win pace without him, Murray and MPJ.

Mavs record with Kyrie without Luka is 3 and 3. I mean I don’t see the comparison even with the lack of consistency. The talent level is too vast. Then you take in the difference in wins between mvps candidates in 2022 and 2024. The comparison doesn’t make sense

[zimpy27]

That season proves you can give Jokic trash and he can still carve out 40+ wins and steal a playoff game from the eventual champs. It was one of the most historic Carey jobs in the history of the sport. I mean, does that team even win 10 games without Jokic??

Yeah he was great that year. Not taking anything from Jokic. Just pointing out that Mavs have been in disarray, I think they must have a record for least minutes the top lineup have had together. No one seems to be giving Doncic credit playing through adversity.

Jokic missed 8 games and the team played to a 21-win pace without him, Murray and MPJ.

Mavs record with Kyrie without Luka is 3 and 3. I mean I don’t see the comparison even with the lack of consistency. The talent level is too vast. Then you take in the difference in wins between mvps candidates in 2022 and 2024. The comparison doesn’t make sense

I disagree, Nuggets got 48 wins and Mavs likely get 50+ with no consistent lineups.

For Jokic the argument was that the team was poor except Gordon and some of MPJ, for Luka it's that the team has been inconsistent and poor beyond Kyrie until the recent trade.

Since trade this Mavs team looks like they could top the West in the RS.