NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2023-24 (Part 5: So who's winning MVP? )

[QPR]

Yeah he was great that year. Not taking anything from Jokic. Just pointing out that Mavs have been in disarray, I think they must have a record for least minutes the top lineup have had together. No one seems to be giving Doncic credit playing through adversity.

Jokic missed 8 games and the team played to a 21-win pace without him, Murray and MPJ.

Mavs record with Kyrie without Luka is 3 and 3. I mean I don’t see the comparison even with the lack of consistency. The talent level is too vast. Then you take in the difference in wins between mvps candidates in 2022 and 2024. The comparison doesn’t make sense

I disagree, Nuggets got 48 wins and Mavs likely get 50+ with no consistent lineups.

For Jokic the argument was that the team was poor except Gordon and some of MPJ, for Luka it's that the team has been inconsistent and poor beyond Kyrie until the recent trade.

Since trade this Mavs team looks like they could top the West in the RS.

You're ignoring two pretty crucial factors for Jokic in 2022 though...

1) Jokic was clearly the best player going by advanced stats; and
2) There wasn't another stand out candidate (Giannis and Embiid were the only other players to get 1st place votes, and Milwaukee and Philly both only won 51 games). The best team in the league was Phoenix, who were a two-headed monster with CP and Booker.

Neither of those factors applies to Luka this year.

[Mavrelous]

Mavs record with Kyrie without Luka is 3 and 3. I mean I don’t see the comparison even with the lack of consistency. The talent level is too vast. Then you take in the difference in wins between mvps candidates in 2022 and 2024. The comparison doesn’t make sense

I disagree, Nuggets got 48 wins and Mavs likely get 50+ with no consistent lineups.

For Jokic the argument was that the team was poor except Gordon and some of MPJ, for Luka it's that the team has been inconsistent and poor beyond Kyrie until the recent trade.

Since trade this Mavs team looks like they could top the West in the RS.

You're ignoring two pretty crucial factors for Jokic in 2022 though...

1) Jokic was clearly the best player going by advanced stats; and
2) There wasn't another stand out candidate (Giannis and Embiid were the only other players to get 1st place votes, and Milwaukee and Philly both only won 51 games). The best team in the league was Phoenix, who were a two-headed monster with CP and Booker.

Neither of those factors applies to Luka this year.

Yep, what Luka is doing is absolutely MVP calibre, and would win in most seasons, but he's competing with a guy in contention with ATG peak, it won't happen this year.

[zimpy27]

Mavs record with Kyrie without Luka is 3 and 3. I mean I don’t see the comparison even with the lack of consistency. The talent level is too vast. Then you take in the difference in wins between mvps candidates in 2022 and 2024. The comparison doesn’t make sense

I disagree, Nuggets got 48 wins and Mavs likely get 50+ with no consistent lineups.

For Jokic the argument was that the team was poor except Gordon and some of MPJ, for Luka it's that the team has been inconsistent and poor beyond Kyrie until the recent trade.

Since trade this Mavs team looks like they could top the West in the RS.

You're ignoring two pretty crucial factors for Jokic in 2022 though...

1) Jokic was clearly the best player going by advanced stats; and
2) There wasn't another stand out candidate (Giannis and Embiid were the only other players to get 1st place votes, and Milwaukee and Philly both only won 51 games). The best team in the league was Phoenix, who were a two-headed monster with CP and Booker.

Neither of those factors applies to Luka this year.

This discussion is about whether team success is enough for Luka.

Not even talking about who is winning based on individual stats. I have Jokic ahead in advanced stats and if I had a vote I'd vote for Jokic.

But Luka has a chance because team success is enough considering circumstances (this is the argument I'm having). Luka is also impactful and has great stats.

So I think it's very possible that he gets some votes and the amount will depend mostly on narrative.

[Bob8]

Yeah he was great that year. Not taking anything from Jokic. Just pointing out that Mavs have been in disarray, I think they must have a record for least minutes the top lineup have had together. No one seems to be giving Doncic credit playing through adversity.

Jokic missed 8 games and the team played to a 21-win pace without him, Murray and MPJ.

Mavs record with Kyrie without Luka is 3 and 3. I mean I don’t see the comparison even with the lack of consistency. The talent level is too vast. Then you take in the difference in wins between mvps candidates in 2022 and 2024. The comparison doesn’t make sense

I disagree, Nuggets got 48 wins and Mavs likely get 50+ with no consistent lineups.

For Jokic the argument was that the team was poor except Gordon and some of MPJ, for Luka it's that the team has been inconsistent and poor beyond Kyrie until the recent trade.

Since trade this Mavs team looks like they could top the West in the RS.

We might check how West has looked in 2022 and how looks in 2024. Not exactly the same bloodbath like this year. It's very questionable how many wins and which place would have Denver won, if the competition was as strong as this year. I doubt very much that Denver finishes better than 10th with 2022 roster in 2024. In 22 10th Spurs had 34 wins, this year 10th team will have around 46 wins.

[AleksandarN]

Yeah he was great that year. Not taking anything from Jokic. Just pointing out that Mavs have been in disarray, I think they must have a record for least minutes the top lineup have had together. No one seems to be giving Doncic credit playing through adversity.

Jokic missed 8 games and the team played to a 21-win pace without him, Murray and MPJ.

Mavs record with Kyrie without Luka is 3 and 3. I mean I don’t see the comparison even with the lack of consistency. The talent level is too vast. Then you take in the difference in wins between mvps candidates in 2022 and 2024. The comparison doesn’t make sense

I disagree, Nuggets got 48 wins and Mavs likely get 50+ with no consistent lineups.

For Jokic the argument was that the team was poor except Gordon and some of MPJ, for Luka it's that the team has been inconsistent and poor beyond Kyrie until the recent trade.

Since trade this Mavs team looks like they could top the West in the RS.

Some of MPJ? He played with a bad back in those 9 games he did play. Some of MPJ that’s a joke.

[QPR]

I disagree, Nuggets got 48 wins and Mavs likely get 50+ with no consistent lineups.

For Jokic the argument was that the team was poor except Gordon and some of MPJ, for Luka it's that the team has been inconsistent and poor beyond Kyrie until the recent trade.

Since trade this Mavs team looks like they could top the West in the RS.

You're ignoring two pretty crucial factors for Jokic in 2022 though...

1) Jokic was clearly the best player going by advanced stats; and
2) There wasn't another stand out candidate (Giannis and Embiid were the only other players to get 1st place votes, and Milwaukee and Philly both only won 51 games). The best team in the league was Phoenix, who were a two-headed monster with CP and Booker.

Neither of those factors applies to Luka this year.

Yep, what Luka is doing is absolutely MVP calibre, and would win in most seasons, but he's competing with a guy in contention with ATG peak, it won't happen this year.

I actually wouldn't completely close the door if the Mavs win out and he puts up some of his usual monster lines. He'll have the recency bias and he'll also have the narrative (kept the Mavs competitive while they had injuries and a poor roster, went to another level once he got help), especially if they chase down the Clips for 4th. Plus it sounds like the Nuggets are prioritising Murray's health for the playoffs, so there's every chance Denver drops another couple.

So you could easily get a situation where the Mavs are 4th and the Nuggets are 3rd, and Luka is on a heater.

Jokic is also absurd but he's also slow and steady wins the race. And as the defending champions, guys like Gordon, KCP and MJP are now seen as a strong supporting cast, rather than role players that are made significantly better by Jokic's gravity.

[AleksandarN]

Mavs record with Kyrie without Luka is 3 and 3. I mean I don’t see the comparison even with the lack of consistency. The talent level is too vast. Then you take in the difference in wins between mvps candidates in 2022 and 2024. The comparison doesn’t make sense

I disagree, Nuggets got 48 wins and Mavs likely get 50+ with no consistent lineups.

For Jokic the argument was that the team was poor except Gordon and some of MPJ, for Luka it's that the team has been inconsistent and poor beyond Kyrie until the recent trade.

Since trade this Mavs team looks like they could top the West in the RS.

We might check how West has looked in 2022 and how looks in 2024. Not exactly the same bloodbath like this year. It's very questionable how many wins and which place would have Denver won, if the competition was as strong as this year. I doubt very much that Denver finishes better than 10th with 2022 roster in 2024. In 22 10th Spurs had 34 wins, this year 10th team will have around 46 wins.

Kyrie can win games on his own. You can not say that with any teammate Jokic had in 22. Now factor in the difference in win totals for each other mvp candidate compared to Jokic that year. The comparison is not valid.

[Bob8]

I disagree, Nuggets got 48 wins and Mavs likely get 50+ with no consistent lineups.

For Jokic the argument was that the team was poor except Gordon and some of MPJ, for Luka it's that the team has been inconsistent and poor beyond Kyrie until the recent trade.

Since trade this Mavs team looks like they could top the West in the RS.

We might check how West has looked in 2022 and how looks in 2024. Not exactly the same bloodbath like this year. It's very questionable how many wins and which place would have Denver won, if the competition was as strong as this year. I doubt very much that Denver finishes better than 10th with 2022 roster in 2024. In 22 10th Spurs had 34 wins, this year 10th team will have around 46 wins.

Kyrie can win games on his own. You can not say that with any teammate Jokic had in 22. Now factor in the difference in win totals for each other mvp candidate compared to Jokic that year. The comparison is not valid.

I'm saying that those 2 seasons in the West are incomparable. We have fantastic teams in West this year, and we had pretty bad West in 2022 season. Jokic would not got MVP in 2022, if West was as good as in 2024, because nobody is getting MVP for 10th place. But that doesn't mean he doesn't deserve MVP this year. He does and he will get it.

Mavs are 3/6 without Luka so not exactly great. Denver was 2/6 without Jokic in 2022. I don't see much difference there.

[Yuri36]

I disagree, Nuggets got 48 wins and Mavs likely get 50+ with no consistent lineups.

For Jokic the argument was that the team was poor except Gordon and some of MPJ, for Luka it's that the team has been inconsistent and poor beyond Kyrie until the recent trade.

Since trade this Mavs team looks like they could top the West in the RS.

You're ignoring two pretty crucial factors for Jokic in 2022 though...

1) Jokic was clearly the best player going by advanced stats; and
2) There wasn't another stand out candidate (Giannis and Embiid were the only other players to get 1st place votes, and Milwaukee and Philly both only won 51 games). The best team in the league was Phoenix, who were a two-headed monster with CP and Booker.

Neither of those factors applies to Luka this year.

Yep, what Luka is doing is absolutely MVP calibre, and would win in most seasons, but he's competing with a guy in contention with ATG peak, it won't happen this year.

Lol cause having a season average of 34pts-9rbds-10ass-1.5stls at 49% FG shooting and 38% 3pt shooting + an historical 73pt game is not ATG peak in your eyes??

Joker fanboys/Luka haters are really hilarious, even more so the ones who try to make it sound that they like Luka when in reality they're only saying that in order to try to sound objective when they're clearly not.

Cause saying/implying Luka's current season is not ATG peak or historical is quite clearly ridiculous and a pretty strange way to say the least to show you like him

[AleksandarN]

You're ignoring two pretty crucial factors for Jokic in 2022 though...

1) Jokic was clearly the best player going by advanced stats; and
2) There wasn't another stand out candidate (Giannis and Embiid were the only other players to get 1st place votes, and Milwaukee and Philly both only won 51 games). The best team in the league was Phoenix, who were a two-headed monster with CP and Booker.

Neither of those factors applies to Luka this year.

Yep, what Luka is doing is absolutely MVP calibre, and would win in most seasons, but he's competing with a guy in contention with ATG peak, it won't happen this year.

Lol cause having a season average of 34pts-9rbds-10ass-1.5stls at 49% FG shooting and 38% 3pt shooting + an historical 73pt game is not ATG peak in your eyes??

Joker fanboys/Luka haters are really hilarious, even more so the ones who try to make it sound that they like Luka when in reality they're only saying that in order to try to sound objective when they're clearly not.

Cause saying/implying Luka's current season is not ATG peak or historical is quite clearly ridiculous and a pretty strange way to say the least to show you like him

Ok so the people you disagree with are Joker fan boys or Luka haters. That’s crazy talk. I almost miss eyeatoma... Almost

[Yuri36]

Yep, what Luka is doing is absolutely MVP calibre, and would win in most seasons, but he's competing with a guy in contention with ATG peak, it won't happen this year.

Lol cause having a season average of 34pts-9rbds-10ass-1.5stls at 49% FG shooting and 38% 3pt shooting + an historical 73pt game is not ATG peak in your eyes??

Joker fanboys/Luka haters are really hilarious, even more so the ones who try to make it sound that they like Luka when in reality they're only saying that in order to try to sound objective when they're clearly not.

Cause saying/implying Luka's current season is not ATG peak or historical is quite clearly ridiculous and a pretty strange way to say the least to show you like him

Ok so the people you disagree with are Joker fan boys or Luka haters. That’s crazy talk. I almost miss eyeatoma... Almost

Yes, the ones who comes with stuff like this one or claims like "joker is the CLEARCUT MVP" cause that's what they naturally deserve with **** ridiculous claims like that.

I don't call Joker fanboy or Luka hater for example people who think Joker is the favourite to win it but still say that it's very very close and that Luka himself is having an ATG peak season (which shouldn't even be a debate as it's a crystal clear fact if you know NBA's history)

Imagine me saying Luka is the clearcut MVP this season cause he has 8 more ppg and more apg than Joker, how would you call me?

[Mavrelous]

Yes, the ones who comes with stuff like this one or claims like "joker is the CLEARCUT MVP" cause that's what they naturally deserve with **** ridiculous claims like that.

I don't call Joker fanboy or Luka hater for example people who think Joker is the favourite to win it but that it's very very close and that Luka himself is having an ATG peak season (which shouldn't even be a debate as it's a crystal clear fact if you know NBA's history)

I'm a Mavs fan and Luka is my favourite player, I think Jokic has better case this year.

[Yuri36]

Yes, the ones who comes with stuff like this one or claims like "joker is the CLEARCUT MVP" cause that's what they naturally deserve with **** ridiculous claims like that.

I don't call Joker fanboy or Luka hater for example people who think Joker is the favourite to win it but that it's very very close and that Luka himself is having an ATG peak season (which shouldn't even be a debate as it's a crystal clear fact if you know NBA's history)

I'm a Mavs fan and Luka is my favourite player, I think Jokic has better case this year.

You can well say Jokic has a better case than Luka (which I disagree but still at least it remains a reasonable take) without saying he's the clearcut MVP or that Luka is not having an ATG season contrary to Joker, which is clearly not quite the same thing.

[BelgradeNugget]

Yes, the ones who comes with stuff like this one or claims like "joker is the CLEARCUT MVP" cause that's what they naturally deserve with **** ridiculous claims like that.

I don't call Joker fanboy or Luka hater for example people who think Joker is the favourite to win it but that it's very very close and that Luka himself is having an ATG peak season (which shouldn't even be a debate as it's a crystal clear fact if you know NBA's history)

I'm a Mavs fan and Luka is my favourite player, I think Jokic has better case this year.

Nuggets fan, for me it is SGA

[QPR]

You're ignoring two pretty crucial factors for Jokic in 2022 though...

1) Jokic was clearly the best player going by advanced stats; and
2) There wasn't another stand out candidate (Giannis and Embiid were the only other players to get 1st place votes, and Milwaukee and Philly both only won 51 games). The best team in the league was Phoenix, who were a two-headed monster with CP and Booker.

Neither of those factors applies to Luka this year.

Yep, what Luka is doing is absolutely MVP calibre, and would win in most seasons, but he's competing with a guy in contention with ATG peak, it won't happen this year.

Lol cause having a season average of 34pts-9rbds-10ass-1.5stls at 49% FG shooting and 38% 3pt shooting + an historical 73pt game is not ATG peak in your eyes??

Joker fanboys/Luka haters are really hilarious, even more so the ones who try to make it sound that they like Luka when in reality they're only saying that in order to try to sound objective when they're clearly not.

Cause saying/implying Luka's current season is not ATG peak or historical is quite clearly ridiculous and a pretty strange way to say the least to show you like him

I think you need to have demonstrably won to be considered as having an all time great peak. Luka's counting stats are for sure historically good, but that's not necessarily the same thing. Individual numbers are great but it's got to lead to team success when it counts, so the jury is still out on where his peak actually sits historically.

Jokic has been incredible for four years now, but he still needed the historic playoffs and a ring to demonstrate that his peak was "all time". And I say that as someone who hates the way people use rings to determine greatness.

[Yuri36]

Yep, what Luka is doing is absolutely MVP calibre, and would win in most seasons, but he's competing with a guy in contention with ATG peak, it won't happen this year.

Lol cause having a season average of 34pts-9rbds-10ass-1.5stls at 49% FG shooting and 38% 3pt shooting + an historical 73pt game is not ATG peak in your eyes??

Joker fanboys/Luka haters are really hilarious, even more so the ones who try to make it sound that they like Luka when in reality they're only saying that in order to try to sound objective when they're clearly not.

Cause saying/implying Luka's current season is not ATG peak or historical is quite clearly ridiculous and a pretty strange way to say the least to show you like him

I think you need to have demonstrably won to be considered as having an all time great peak. Luka's counting stats are for sure historically good, but that's not necessarily the same thing. Individual numbers are great but it's got to lead to team success when it counts, so the jury is still out on where his peak actually sits historically.

Jokic has been incredible for four years now, but he still needed the historic playoffs and a ring to demonstrate that his peak was "all time". And I say that as someone who hates the way people use rings to determine greatness.

Well, look at Luka's PO (historical so far) numbers and achievements since he came to NBA (carrying an average Mavs team to a conference final, legendary 40pts triple double game with a buzzer beater against a stacked Clippers team and playing on 1 leg)....so if performing during POs is also a must in your eyes for getting a MVP title then it actually strengthens Luka's case for that.

Cause of course, not even Wilt or MJ would have been able to win a ring with the Mavs team of previous years.

[Bob8]

Yep, what Luka is doing is absolutely MVP calibre, and would win in most seasons, but he's competing with a guy in contention with ATG peak, it won't happen this year.

Lol cause having a season average of 34pts-9rbds-10ass-1.5stls at 49% FG shooting and 38% 3pt shooting + an historical 73pt game is not ATG peak in your eyes??

Joker fanboys/Luka haters are really hilarious, even more so the ones who try to make it sound that they like Luka when in reality they're only saying that in order to try to sound objective when they're clearly not.

Cause saying/implying Luka's current season is not ATG peak or historical is quite clearly ridiculous and a pretty strange way to say the least to show you like him

I think you need to have demonstrably won to be considered as having an all time great peak. Luka's counting stats are for sure historically good, but that's not necessarily the same thing. Individual numbers are great but it's got to lead to team success when it counts, so the jury is still out on where his peak actually sits historically.

Jokic has been incredible for four years now, but he still needed the historic playoffs and a ring to demonstrate that his peak was "all time". And I say that as someone who hates the way people use rings to determine greatness.

Can we at least say that he's playing historically good offense?

Winning is strongly correlated with quality of the roster. No one has ever won anything with average roster. Not even MJ. And I doubt very much that anyone can claim that Luka has had good enough roster to win something.

We have seen how just 2 good defensive role players totally change Mavs capability to win games after the trade, because offensive side was already good enough. And funny enough Luka became one of the most impactful players in Nba, considering +/-, over night, playing exactly the same basketball as before.

[whatever_]

This must be the most annoying thread in the whole internet

[QPR]

Lol cause having a season average of 34pts-9rbds-10ass-1.5stls at 49% FG shooting and 38% 3pt shooting + an historical 73pt game is not ATG peak in your eyes??

Joker fanboys/Luka haters are really hilarious, even more so the ones who try to make it sound that they like Luka when in reality they're only saying that in order to try to sound objective when they're clearly not.

Cause saying/implying Luka's current season is not ATG peak or historical is quite clearly ridiculous and a pretty strange way to say the least to show you like him

I think you need to have demonstrably won to be considered as having an all time great peak. Luka's counting stats are for sure historically good, but that's not necessarily the same thing. Individual numbers are great but it's got to lead to team success when it counts, so the jury is still out on where his peak actually sits historically.

Jokic has been incredible for four years now, but he still needed the historic playoffs and a ring to demonstrate that his peak was "all time". And I say that as someone who hates the way people use rings to determine greatness.

Can we at least say that he's playing historically good offense?

Of course, who is arguing otherwise?

[Bob8]

I think you need to have demonstrably won to be considered as having an all time great peak. Luka's counting stats are for sure historically good, but that's not necessarily the same thing. Individual numbers are great but it's got to lead to team success when it counts, so the jury is still out on where his peak actually sits historically.

Jokic has been incredible for four years now, but he still needed the historic playoffs and a ring to demonstrate that his peak was "all time". And I say that as someone who hates the way people use rings to determine greatness.

Can we at least say that he's playing historically good offense?

Of course, who is arguing otherwise?

Those who are saying that he's not impactful player.