DelAbbot wrote:Look, I was fighting with GWS about me being part of team Masai as recently as just before the Thad trade. I turned on them after the Poeltl deal and non-trade of FVV.
You turned on them long before the Poeltl deal.
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DelAbbot wrote:Look, I was fighting with GWS about me being part of team Masai as recently as just before the Thad trade. I turned on them after the Poeltl deal and non-trade of FVV.
Tor_Raps wrote:IQ/ ?
RJ/ Dick
?/ Ochai
Barnes/ Olynyk
Poeltl/ ?
Next season will completely be dependent on how we fill those question marks. I gave Ochai the benefit of the doubt that he'll be good enough to even be a rotational player lol.
islandboy53 wrote:sbsat wrote:Brinbe wrote:As I said in another post in this thread, I don't think there's anything wrong with having some skepticism about this FO. Their talent ID has been really questionable and I don't know who/what to attribute that to exactly because they're so opaque about everything they do.
They did the work to give themselves flexibility this offseason to radically reshape large portions of this team, but selling off is always the easy part. The follow-through is what matters. Can they successfully do it? Well, that's where everyone will feel differently I suppose. But if you don't think so that's fine, but none of us can really do anything about it either way. So repeating it a billion times from now until whenever is also a bit tiresome.
The front office definitely needs a look. Lots pf questionable personnel decisions and the choice they made for coach is sickening. It may be time for a front office shuffle but quality execs are hard to find
There's a lot of sharp basketball minds on this forum. No doubt ownership have a complete list of realgm possibilities for that inevitable day when they clean out the front office.
Duffman100 wrote:DelAbbot wrote:earth007 wrote:
Yet some folks here would do all kinds of mental gymnastics to defend them. In their eyes, they can't do any wrong.
It's understandable. For some the championship brought them so much joy that they have associated their own positive identity with it and the FO that got us there. Any attack on the FO is perceived as an attack on their positive identity.
For me that's really simplifying it.
It's not that the championship 'brought me joy" (which of course it did, it was amazing). It's that it showed me that they're a swing for the fences, make tough decisions, proven winner FO. And that FO cycles are different than coaching cycles, you give them longer ones. Especially proven winners.
I look at each FO cycle as 5-8 years. Personally, that's how I view it.
18-19 was the title
19-20 was the defend of that title
----
20-21 Tampa tank
21-22 48 wins and ROY
22-23 Disappointing bad year
23-24 Tear down year
So the way I see it, we're in year 3 or 4 of that 5-8 year cycle. Depending if the tank part of the season is part of that timeline.
If we're hitting year 5-6 and we're still very meh, yeah.. I'm on board with starting to talk about alternatives.
Duffman100 wrote:Scase wrote:Duffman100 wrote:
Did he? I don't remember that.
Yeah he mentioned it back in Jan after the trade, not before, memory was a bit off.
It's one of the main reasons people saw his acquisition as a sign we were going all in, and now it definitely doesn't mesh with what we've pivoted to.
Ah interesting.
Duffman100 wrote:Duffman100 wrote:DelAbbot wrote:
It's understandable. For some the championship brought them so much joy that they have associated their own positive identity with it and the FO that got us there. Any attack on the FO is perceived as an attack on their positive identity.
For me that's really simplifying it.
It's not that the championship 'brought me joy" (which of course it did, it was amazing). It's that it showed me that they're a swing for the fences, make tough decisions, proven winner FO. And that FO cycles are different than coaching cycles, you give them longer ones. Especially proven winners.
I look at each FO cycle as 5-8 years. Personally, that's how I view it.
18-19 was the title
19-20 was the defend of that title
----
20-21 Tampa tank
21-22 48 wins and ROY
22-23 Disappointing bad year
23-24 Tear down year
So the way I see it, we're in year 3 or 4 of that 5-8 year cycle. Depending if the tank part of the season is part of that timeline.
If we're hitting year 5-6 and we're still very meh, yeah.. I'm on board with starting to talk about alternatives.
btw, if you want to follow this guidelines, Shapiro and Atkins should definitely be out.
Scase wrote:Duffman100 wrote:Duffman100 wrote:
For me that's really simplifying it.
It's not that the championship 'brought me joy" (which of course it did, it was amazing). It's that it showed me that they're a swing for the fences, make tough decisions, proven winner FO. And that FO cycles are different than coaching cycles, you give them longer ones. Especially proven winners.
I look at each FO cycle as 5-8 years. Personally, that's how I view it.
18-19 was the title
19-20 was the defend of that title
----
20-21 Tampa tank
21-22 48 wins and ROY
22-23 Disappointing bad year
23-24 Tear down year
So the way I see it, we're in year 3 or 4 of that 5-8 year cycle. Depending if the tank part of the season is part of that timeline.
If we're hitting year 5-6 and we're still very meh, yeah.. I'm on board with starting to talk about alternatives.
btw, if you want to follow this guidelines, Shapiro and Atkins should definitely be out.
I would say based on that, we would be in year 4 or 5. Defend the title year should have been evaluating for the future and with the plan starting in 20-21. We weren't going to win another chip without kawhi, so that's when planning should have begun.
Duffman100 wrote:Scase wrote:Duffman100 wrote:
btw, if you want to follow this guidelines, Shapiro and Atkins should definitely be out.
I would say based on that, we would be in year 4 or 5. Defend the title year should have been evaluating for the future and with the plan starting in 20-21. We weren't going to win another chip without kawhi, so that's when planning should have begun.
Disagreed. That team was deep and still stacked. The east was wide open and it was the Heat that made it the finals. If Siakam didn't inexplicably crumble in that postseason, we could have easily made it to the finals. Once there anything can happen.
It's tough to gauge whether a tank season. But still that means were in season 4 of a 5-8 year window.
Scase wrote:Duffman100 wrote:Scase wrote:I would say based on that, we would be in year 4 or 5. Defend the title year should have been evaluating for the future and with the plan starting in 20-21. We weren't going to win another chip without kawhi, so that's when planning should have begun.
Disagreed. That team was deep and still stacked. The east was wide open and it was the Heat that made it the finals. If Siakam didn't inexplicably crumble in that postseason, we could have easily made it to the finals. Once there anything can happen.
It's tough to gauge whether a tank season. But still that means were in season 4 of a 5-8 year window.
That year is not a hill I'm willing to die on, I just don't think it could have ever resulted in a chip. The Heat made it that far because they have Jimmy, not only a true #1 option, but a stellar playoff performer. Even so if it were a regular season I don't see us having the same success, but that's too much speculation for my tastes
I can give them a pass on that year, still puts us in year 4 though. And this is a pretty bad situation for year 4 IMO. Year 4 should be the upswing, not starting from scratch.
manjusaka wrote:I had felt that we should hit the reset button right after we lost Kawhi. However this fan base just doesn’t like losing, it shows on this board. Most people won’t tolerate a OKC or Ainge style of rebuilding. So it lead us to the situation where we have now.
Duffman100 wrote:Scase wrote:Duffman100 wrote:
Disagreed. That team was deep and still stacked. The east was wide open and it was the Heat that made it the finals. If Siakam didn't inexplicably crumble in that postseason, we could have easily made it to the finals. Once there anything can happen.
It's tough to gauge whether a tank season. But still that means were in season 4 of a 5-8 year window.
That year is not a hill I'm willing to die on, I just don't think it could have ever resulted in a chip. The Heat made it that far because they have Jimmy, not only a true #1 option, but a stellar playoff performer. Even so if it were a regular season I don't see us having the same success, but that's too much speculation for my tastes
I can give them a pass on that year, still puts us in year 4 though. And this is a pretty bad situation for year 4 IMO. Year 4 should be the upswing, not starting from scratch.
I'd put it at year 3 (with the tank as the reset year). Either way, that's what I'm saying wait until like year 6 to see the improvement. If we're on an upswing in the next 2 years, then cool. If not, yeah I'm on board with looking at alternatives in FO.
The problem is reactionary moves on FOs rarely pay off. When you actually look at it season over season, not a ton of time has passed. Even though it's felt like it has.
Scase wrote:Duffman100 wrote:Scase wrote:That year is not a hill I'm willing to die on, I just don't think it could have ever resulted in a chip. The Heat made it that far because they have Jimmy, not only a true #1 option, but a stellar playoff performer. Even so if it were a regular season I don't see us having the same success, but that's too much speculation for my tastes
I can give them a pass on that year, still puts us in year 4 though. And this is a pretty bad situation for year 4 IMO. Year 4 should be the upswing, not starting from scratch.
I'd put it at year 3 (with the tank as the reset year). Either way, that's what I'm saying wait until like year 6 to see the improvement. If we're on an upswing in the next 2 years, then cool. If not, yeah I'm on board with looking at alternatives in FO.
The problem is reactionary moves on FOs rarely pay off. When you actually look at it season over season, not a ton of time has passed. Even though it's felt like it has.
I cant budge from it being year 4, Tampa should have been the sign to start the rebuild and they missed out on it. Poor evaluation or bad timing still counts.
I'm not saying to replace the FO as a knee jerk reaction, personally if we were to do that I think it would have had to be last year before they traded everyone away. As of now, my opinion on moving on from them is in a holding pattern pending what they do this off season. Double down and make moves to be a play in team next year, I think they should be replaced, keep going for an actual rebuild, I will give them a couple more years.
Duffman100 wrote:manjusaka wrote:I had felt that we should hit the reset button right after we lost Kawhi. However this fan base just doesn’t like losing, it shows on this board. Most people won’t tolerate a OKC or Ainge style of rebuilding. So it lead us to the situation where we have now.
It's easy to say that, but what does that look like. Gasol and Ibaka aren't getting us anything. Lowry maybe gets us some assets? And then you're selling off FVV, Siakam, OG right after a finals run?
If Bubble doesn't happen and Siakam <5 feet % doesn't tank by 15%, we're in the finals again.
Duffman100 wrote:Scase wrote:Duffman100 wrote:
btw, if you want to follow this guidelines, Shapiro and Atkins should definitely be out.
I would say based on that, we would be in year 4 or 5. Defend the title year should have been evaluating for the future and with the plan starting in 20-21. We weren't going to win another chip without kawhi, so that's when planning should have begun.
Disagreed. That team was deep and still stacked. The east was wide open and it was the Heat that made it the finals. If Siakam didn't inexplicably crumble in that postseason, we could have easily made it to the finals. Once there anything can happen.
It's tough to gauge whether a tank season. But still that means were in season 4 of a 5-8 year window.
ArthurVandelay wrote:Duffman100 wrote:Scase wrote:I would say based on that, we would be in year 4 or 5. Defend the title year should have been evaluating for the future and with the plan starting in 20-21. We weren't going to win another chip without kawhi, so that's when planning should have begun.
Disagreed. That team was deep and still stacked. The east was wide open and it was the Heat that made it the finals. If Siakam didn't inexplicably crumble in that postseason, we could have easily made it to the finals. Once there anything can happen.
It's tough to gauge whether a tank season. But still that means were in season 4 of a 5-8 year window.
I’d look at this season as the closing of another window, or start of another era.
2013-Championship-2020 was end of one era built around Lowry-DD, then Kawhi, and was a success.
Tampa tank kicked off another era built around Siakam/FVV/OG/Barnes and ended with the OG trade, it was a relatively short-lived failure.
2024 starts the third era under Masai building around BBQ Dick and it’s to be determined.
I’m guessing Masai’s contract has 2-3 years left and if the Raptors aren’t a contender or a very exciting up and coming team at that point, time to seriously consider change.
Duffman100 wrote:manjusaka wrote:I had felt that we should hit the reset button right after we lost Kawhi. However this fan base just doesn’t like losing, it shows on this board. Most people won’t tolerate a OKC or Ainge style of rebuilding. So it lead us to the situation where we have now.
It's easy to say that, but what does that look like. Gasol and Ibaka aren't getting us anything. Lowry maybe gets us some assets? And then you're selling off FVV, Siakam, OG right after a finals run?
If Bubble doesn't happen and Siakam <5 feet % doesn't tank by 15%, we're in the finals again.
Brinbe wrote:That 2019-2020 team was fantastic before covid hit. We were destroying teams, what are people even talking about in here?
Especially those first few months when we went on a terror of a run is not something I'd trade for anything. We played such good basketball in that time and they had a chip on their shoulder doing it without Kawhi. They'd def be in the mix to contend if the season didn't get wiped out till the bubble.