NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2023-24 (Part 5: So who's winning MVP? )

[Wolfgang630]

Luka is definitely the MVP of the last 14 games, no doubt. Lol at the media's obsession with trying to create a talking point though, as Jokic's sustained brilliance does get boring after a while.

Luka has been better almost all year.

But since Dallas were mediocre, he was ignored until the trades.

He is not playing better now than before. His team is.

By what measure has Doncic been "better" than Jokic though?

Points I guess. Points seems to be the end all be all for some.

[Yuri36]

Luka has been better almost all year.

But since Dallas were mediocre, he was ignored until the trades.

He is not playing better now than before. His team is.

By what measure has Doncic been "better" than Jokic though?

Points I guess. Points seems to be the end all be all for some.

They are not but when there is a such a big difference (almost 8 more ppg) especially at this level (26+ ppg players), it DEFINITELY becomes significant.

Oh and it's not like Luka doesn't also have more assists and steals than Joker.

Anyway, that was again a MVP performance by Luka:

Read on Twitter

?

[QPR]

By what measure has Doncic been "better" than Jokic though?

Points I guess. Points seems to be the end all be all for some.

They are not but when there is a such a big difference (almost 8 more ppg) especially at this level (26+ ppg players), it DEFINITELY becomes significant.

Oh and it's not like Luka doesn't also have more assists and steals than Joker.

It's not really that significant when you consider their respective styles of play. Luka plays more minutes, takes 5 more shots a game and 7 more threes a game, so a higher PPG is to be expected. He also has a significantly higher usage rate (35.8 to 29.5). Jokic has shown on countless occasions he can score big when the situation requires it.

You would expect Doncic to have more points given their respective roles and play styles. The same way you expect Jokic to have more rebounds. They are actually almost identical in assists per 48 (12.54 to 12.52) so you can argue this differential is purely down to the fact Luka plays more minutes. I'm not even sure how you measure "potential assists" or if this is even a recorded statistic? Jokic is also 3rd in total screen assists.

Luka has more steals, sure. Jokic meanwhile has the 7th most deflections in the league, with the six players above him all guards (Wemby the only other big in the top ten). Plus a lot of Jokic's defence is reading plays, directing team mates and prevention, so is not going to be reflected in raw stats.

At the end of the day, the Nuggets are six games ahead of the Mavs. Luka may be ahead on EPM, but Jokic is miles ahead in VORP, BPM and WS. He is simply a more impactful player and his impact translates to wins. I think Luka has had a wonderful season and will finish 2nd now, but I can't see how you can make a convincing argument that he's been better.

[Yuri36]

Points I guess. Points seems to be the end all be all for some.

They are not but when there is a such a big difference (almost 8 more ppg) especially at this level (26+ ppg players), it DEFINITELY becomes significant.

Oh and it's not like Luka doesn't also have more assists and steals than Joker.

It's not really that significant when you consider their respective styles of play. Luka plays more minutes, takes 5 more shots a game and 7 more threes a game, so a higher PPG is to be expected. He also has a significantly higher usage rate (35.8 to 29.5). Jokic has shown on countless occasions he can score big when the situation requires it.

You would expect Doncic to have more points given their respective roles and play styles. The same way you expect Jokic to have more rebounds. They are actually almost identical in assists per 48 (12.54 to 12.52) so you can argue this differential is purely down to the fact Luka plays more minutes. I'm not even sure how you measure "potential assists" or if this is even a recorded statistic? Jokic is also 3rd in total screen assists.

Luka has more steals, sure. Jokic meanwhile has the 7th most deflections in the league, with the six players above him all guards (Wemby the only other big in the top ten). Plus a lot of Jokic's defence is reading plays, directing team mates and prevention, so is not going to be reflected in raw stats.

At the end of the day, the Nuggets are six games ahead of the Mavs. Luka may be ahead on EPM, but Jokic is miles ahead in VORP, BPM and WS. He is simply a more impactful player and his impact translates to wins. I think Luka has had a wonderful season and will finish 2nd now, but I can't see how you can make a convincing argument that he's been better.

Joker is a center while Luka is a point guard, it's only normal he's got a bigger usage than joker but that shouldn't be hold against him as you still have to use those more minutes/usage effectively and that's exactly what Luka is doing and all of this while being much more double/triple teamed than Jokic.
And if Jokic played as many minutes as Luka, that wouldn't necessarily result in as many points and assists as Luka as he would also be more tired (especially as he is a center) and not necessarily as effective as he usually is.

[Woodsanity]

They are not but when there is a such a big difference (almost 8 more ppg) especially at this level (26+ ppg players), it DEFINITELY becomes significant.

Oh and it's not like Luka doesn't also have more assists and steals than Joker.

It's not really that significant when you consider their respective styles of play. Luka plays more minutes, takes 5 more shots a game and 7 more threes a game, so a higher PPG is to be expected. He also has a significantly higher usage rate (35.8 to 29.5). Jokic has shown on countless occasions he can score big when the situation requires it.

You would expect Doncic to have more points given their respective roles and play styles. The same way you expect Jokic to have more rebounds. They are actually almost identical in assists per 48 (12.54 to 12.52) so you can argue this differential is purely down to the fact Luka plays more minutes. I'm not even sure how you measure "potential assists" or if this is even a recorded statistic? Jokic is also 3rd in total screen assists.

Luka has more steals, sure. Jokic meanwhile has the 7th most deflections in the league, with the six players above him all guards (Wemby the only other big in the top ten). Plus a lot of Jokic's defence is reading plays, directing team mates and prevention, so is not going to be reflected in raw stats.

At the end of the day, the Nuggets are six games ahead of the Mavs. Luka may be ahead on EPM, but Jokic is miles ahead in VORP, BPM and WS. He is simply a more impactful player and his impact translates to wins. I think Luka has had a wonderful season and will finish 2nd now, but I can't see how you can make a convincing argument that he's been better.

Joker is a center while Luka is a point guard, it's only normal he's got a bigger usage than joker but that shouldn't be hold against him as you still have to use those more minutes/usage effectively and that's exactly what Luka is doing and all of this while being much more double/triple teamed than Jokic.
And if Jokic played as many minutes as Luka, that wouldn't necessarily result in as many points and assists as Luka as he would also be more tired (especially as he is a center) and not necessarily as effective as he usually is.

The minutes argument is moot considering Luka has missed 8 more games this season than Jokic....
Jokic has played more than Luka this season.

You are talking about a guy who played almost 40 mpg and averaged 30/9.5/13.5 in the playoffs in a 20 game sample, this is an absurd take.

And yet Embiid, a center almost has 40% usage this season and normally has very high usage.

Luka, Embiid, Harden. All guys who are way too heliocentric to their team's detriment.

The reality is Jokic has better stats than Luka.

PER: 30.9 vs 28.1

There is a reason why the Mavs have a lesser record despite similar talent. Kyrie>Murray at least in RS. And they played similar amount of games.

[Special_Puppy]

Looks like the Mavs could win 51 games. Luka MVP?

[Yuri36]

It's not really that significant when you consider their respective styles of play. Luka plays more minutes, takes 5 more shots a game and 7 more threes a game, so a higher PPG is to be expected. He also has a significantly higher usage rate (35.8 to 29.5). Jokic has shown on countless occasions he can score big when the situation requires it.

You would expect Doncic to have more points given their respective roles and play styles. The same way you expect Jokic to have more rebounds. They are actually almost identical in assists per 48 (12.54 to 12.52) so you can argue this differential is purely down to the fact Luka plays more minutes. I'm not even sure how you measure "potential assists" or if this is even a recorded statistic? Jokic is also 3rd in total screen assists.

Luka has more steals, sure. Jokic meanwhile has the 7th most deflections in the league, with the six players above him all guards (Wemby the only other big in the top ten). Plus a lot of Jokic's defence is reading plays, directing team mates and prevention, so is not going to be reflected in raw stats.

At the end of the day, the Nuggets are six games ahead of the Mavs. Luka may be ahead on EPM, but Jokic is miles ahead in VORP, BPM and WS. He is simply a more impactful player and his impact translates to wins. I think Luka has had a wonderful season and will finish 2nd now, but I can't see how you can make a convincing argument that he's been better.

Joker is a center while Luka is a point guard, it's only normal he's got a bigger usage than joker but that shouldn't be hold against him as you still have to use those more minutes/usage effectively and that's exactly what Luka is doing and all of this while being much more double/triple teamed than Jokic.
And if Jokic played as many minutes as Luka, that wouldn't necessarily result in as many points and assists as Luka as he would also be more tired (especially as he is a center) and not necessarily as effective as he usually is.

The minutes argument is moot considering Luka has missed 8 more games this season than Jokic....
Jokic has played more than Luka this season.

You are talking about a guy who played almost 40 mpg and averaged 30/9.5/13.5 in the playoffs in a 20 game sample, this is an absurd take.

And yet Embiid, a center almost has 40% usage this season and normally has very high usage.

Luka, Embiid, Harden. All guys who are way too heliocentric to their team's detriment.

The reality is Jokic has better stats than Luka.

PER: 30.9 vs 28.1

There is a reason why the Mavs have a lesser record despite similar talent. Kyrie>Murray at least in RS. And they played similar amount of games.

Similar talent DURING THE WHOLE SEASON? You're frigging joking right?
Since the trades of Gafford and PJ Washington though, yes and guess what? They've had a better record than Denver since then (ok Murray missed lot of games during than span but still).
And before those trades, you're also quick to forget they had suffered from a ridiculous number of injuries, not the least Kyrie missing 25+ games.

[hagredionis]

It's not really that significant when you consider their respective styles of play. Luka plays more minutes, takes 5 more shots a game and 7 more threes a game, so a higher PPG is to be expected. He also has a significantly higher usage rate (35.8 to 29.5). Jokic has shown on countless occasions he can score big when the situation requires it.

You would expect Doncic to have more points given their respective roles and play styles. The same way you expect Jokic to have more rebounds. They are actually almost identical in assists per 48 (12.54 to 12.52) so you can argue this differential is purely down to the fact Luka plays more minutes. I'm not even sure how you measure "potential assists" or if this is even a recorded statistic? Jokic is also 3rd in total screen assists.

Luka has more steals, sure. Jokic meanwhile has the 7th most deflections in the league, with the six players above him all guards (Wemby the only other big in the top ten). Plus a lot of Jokic's defence is reading plays, directing team mates and prevention, so is not going to be reflected in raw stats.

At the end of the day, the Nuggets are six games ahead of the Mavs. Luka may be ahead on EPM, but Jokic is miles ahead in VORP, BPM and WS. He is simply a more impactful player and his impact translates to wins. I think Luka has had a wonderful season and will finish 2nd now, but I can't see how you can make a convincing argument that he's been better.

Joker is a center while Luka is a point guard, it's only normal he's got a bigger usage than joker but that shouldn't be hold against him as you still have to use those more minutes/usage effectively and that's exactly what Luka is doing and all of this while being much more double/triple teamed than Jokic.
And if Jokic played as many minutes as Luka, that wouldn't necessarily result in as many points and assists as Luka as he would also be more tired (especially as he is a center) and not necessarily as effective as he usually is.

The minutes argument is moot considering Luka has missed 8 more games this season than Jokic....
Jokic has played more than Luka this season.

You are talking about a guy who played almost 40 mpg and averaged 30/9.5/13.5 in the playoffs in a 20 game sample, this is an absurd take.

And yet Embiid, a center almost has 40% usage this season and normally has very high usage.

Luka, Embiid, Harden. All guys who are way too heliocentric to their team's detriment.

The reality is Jokic has better stats than Luka.

PER: 30.9 vs 28.1

There is a reason why the Mavs have a lesser record despite similar talent. Kyrie>Murray at least in RS. And they played similar amount of games.

Yes there is a reason why the Mavs have a less record and the reason is missed games due to injuries:
Kyrie 22 games
Lively 23 games
J.Green 24 games
Exum 26 games
Kleber 39 games

Without the really bad luck with injuries the Mavs would have at least as good a record as Denver.

[AleksandarN]

Read on Twitter

Read on Twitter

Again not even close to being the same.

[Yuri36]

Read on Twitter

Read on Twitter

Again not even close to being the same.

Not even close to be the same? Really?
How many guys in history have averaged almost 34-9-10-1.5 with high efficiency?
The reality is Luka's season is almost as historical if not even more than Westbrook's for example and with (much) higher efficiency at shooting.
And let's not forget that historical 73 pts game which is just the tip of the iceberg along with the fact his team will have a much better record than Westbrook's team had when he got the MVP.

[AleksandarN]

Read on Twitter

Read on Twitter

Again not even close to being the same.

Not even close to be the same? Really?
How many guys in history have averaged almost 34-9-10-1.5 with high efficiency?
The reality is Luka's season is almost as historical if not even more than Westbrook's for example and with (much) higher efficiency at shooting.
And let's not forget that historical 73 pts game which is just the tip of the iceberg along with the fact his team will have a much better record than Westbrook's team had when he got the MVP.

Jokic in 2021-22 was better than Luka season right now. What Jokic did that season was amazing. That roster he had that season was complete garbage. The second best scorer on that team was Wil Barton. Wil Barton. In every metric beyond the basic stats Jokic was near record breaking. The impact he had on that team was crazy. Do you know with Jokic on the floor that year Denver had high offensive rating and in the mids 20s without him.

[dygaction]

Again not even close to being the same.

Not even close to be the same? Really?
How many guys in history have averaged almost 34-9-10-1.5 with high efficiency?
The reality is Luka's season is almost as historical if not even more than Westbrook's for example and with (much) higher efficiency at shooting.
And let's not forget that historical 73 pts game which is just the tip of the iceberg along with the fact his team will have a much better record than Westbrook's team had when he got the MVP.

Jokic in 2021-22 was better than Luka season right now. What Jokic did that season was amazing. That roster he had that season was complete garbage. The second best scorer on that team was Wil Barton. Wil Barton. In every metric beyond the basic stats Jokic was near record breaking. The impact he had on that team was crazy. Do you know with Jokic on the floor that year Denver had high offensive rating and in the mids 20s without him.

It was an amazing season, Wil Barton or Will Barton as 2nd best scorer makes it sound even more impressive, but Aaron Gordan was their actual second best scorer in 2022.

[AleksandarN]

Not even close to be the same? Really?
How many guys in history have averaged almost 34-9-10-1.5 with high efficiency?
The reality is Luka's season is almost as historical if not even more than Westbrook's for example and with (much) higher efficiency at shooting.
And let's not forget that historical 73 pts game which is just the tip of the iceberg along with the fact his team will have a much better record than Westbrook's team had when he got the MVP.

Jokic in 2021-22 was better than Luka season right now. What Jokic did that season was amazing. That roster he had that season was complete garbage. The second best scorer on that team was Wil Barton. Wil Barton. In every metric beyond the basic stats Jokic was near record breaking. The impact he had on that team was crazy. Do you know with Jokic on the floor that year Denver had high offensive rating and in the mids 20s without him.

It was an amazing season, Wil Barton or Will Barton as 2nd best scorer makes it sound even more impressive, but Aaron Gordan was their actual second best scorer in 2022.

I stand corrected my bad I thought it was Barton. AG had 15 ppg and Barton had 14.7. Still that team was garbage

[dygaction]

Jokic in 2021-22 was better than Luka season right now. What Jokic did that season was amazing. That roster he had that season was complete garbage. The second best scorer on that team was Wil Barton. Wil Barton. In every metric beyond the basic stats Jokic was near record breaking. The impact he had on that team was crazy. Do you know with Jokic on the floor that year Denver had high offensive rating and in the mids 20s without him.

It was an amazing season, Wil Barton or Will Barton as 2nd best scorer makes it sound even more impressive, but Aaron Gordan was their actual second best scorer in 2022.

I stand corrected my bad I thought it was Barton. AG had 15 ppg and Barton had 14.7. Still that team was garbage

I agree it was one of the heaviest lifting

[Bob8]

Luka Doncic has +290 +/- in this season, but +263 in last 27 games. Just incredible how he became that much better and that much more impactful player overnight. Mavs must be having fantastic practices lately.

[hagredionis]

Again not even close to being the same.

Not even close to be the same? Really?
How many guys in history have averaged almost 34-9-10-1.5 with high efficiency?
The reality is Luka's season is almost as historical if not even more than Westbrook's for example and with (much) higher efficiency at shooting.
And let's not forget that historical 73 pts game which is just the tip of the iceberg along with the fact his team will have a much better record than Westbrook's team had when he got the MVP.

Jokic in 2021-22 was better than Luka season right now. What Jokic did that season was amazing. That roster he had that season was complete garbage. The second best scorer on that team was Wil Barton. Wil Barton. In every metric beyond the basic stats Jokic was near record breaking. The impact he had on that team was crazy. Do you know with Jokic on the floor that year Denver had high offensive rating and in the mids 20s without him.

That's at least debatable. The western conference wasn't nearly as strong in 2021-22 as it is today. I mean the Lakers, GS and the Suns are all in the play-in at the moment.

[hagredionis]

Luka Doncic has +290 +/- in this season, but +263 in last 27 games. Just incredible how he became that much better and that much more impactful player overnight. Mavs must be having fantastic practices lately.

It almost looks like having 3 starters missing many games due to injuries affects one's +/-

[Bob8]

Luka Doncic has +290 +/- in this season, but +263 in last 27 games. Just incredible how he became that much better and that much more impactful player overnight. Mavs must be having fantastic practices lately.

It almost looks like having 3 starters missing many games due to injuries affects one's +/-

No. I'm absolutely sure that has nothing to do with Luka's +/-, Luka just became immensely better, especially in D. He has became top defender overnight.

[kazyv]

i'd say jokic fans have nothing to worry about. he has it in his hands, pretty much. with a decisive performance vs the wolves, he can clinch #1 seed and also make a statement vs the DPOY.

[Yuri36]

Luka Doncic has +290 +/- in this season, but +263 in last 27 games. Just incredible how he became that much better and that much more impactful player overnight. Mavs must be having fantastic practices lately.

Haha best post of this thread and the best answer to all those guys who put way too much emphasis on +/-