trex_8063 wrote:penbeast0 wrote:Why Nique rather than his contemporary Alex English? Both great scorers and apparently great guys, Nique is clearly the better rebounder, English the better playmaker, English more versatile and without the playoff efficiency fail. Nique was flashier, had more accolades, and had the best nickname in NBA history but I don't think he was actually better. Willing to listen though.
Atlanta Hawks rORtg and league rank during Nique’s prime‘86: +0.7 rORTG (11th/23)
‘87: +4.3 rORTG (4th/23)
‘88: +3.3 rORTG (5th/23)
‘89: +4.4 rORTG (4th/25)
‘90: +4.9 rORTG (4th/27)
‘91: +3.0 rORTG (8th/27)
‘92: -0.9 rORTG (16th/27)*
*Important to note Nique missed 40 games this^^^ year. They were +0.8 rORTG in the 42 games he played, -2.6 rORTG in the 40 he missed [+3.4 shift].‘93: +1.3 rORTG (10th/27)
‘94 (Nique traded late season): +0.9 rORTG (12th/27)
And I want to point out who his primary supporting cast was, in descending order of playing time, for that 5-year stretch in which they were >+3.0 rORTG each and every year.....
'87: Kevin Willis, Doc Rivers, Randy Wittman, Cliff Levingston, Tree Rollins, Jon Koncak
'88: Doc Rivers, Randy Wittman, Cliff Levingston, Kevin Willis, Tree Rollins, Antoine Carr, Spud Webb, John Battle
'89: [late prime/early post-prime] Moses Malone, Reggie Theus, Doc Rivers, Cliff Levingston, John Battle, Jon Koncak, Antoine Carr, Spud Webb
'90: Moses Malone (post-prime), Kevin Willis, Spud Webb, Cliff Levingston, Doc Rivers, John Battle
'91: Doc Rivers, Kevin Willis, Spud Webb, Jon Koncak, Moses Malone (35 yrs old, very post-prime), John Battle
Dominique Wilkins with/without records in prime
‘86: 49-29 (.628) with, 1-3 (.250) without
‘87: 56-23 (.709) with, 1-2 (.333) without
‘88: 48-30 (.615) with, 2-2 (.500) without
‘89: 51-29 (.638) with, 1-1 (.500) without
‘90: 39-41 (.488) with, 2-0 without
‘91: 43-38 (.531) with, 0-1 without
‘92: 22-20 (.524) with, 16-24 (.400) without
‘93: 39-32 (.549) with, 4-7 (.364) without
‘94: 42-32 (.568) with, 4-5 (.444) without
TOTAL: 389-274 (.587)---on pace for 48.1 wins---with him; 31-45 (.408)---on pace for 33.5 wins---without him. Avg +14.7 wins added.
Prime English (‘81-’89)PER 21.2, .139 WS/48, +2.7 BPM in 36.6 mpg
77.5 WS, cumulative VORP: 28.9
Prime Wilkins (‘86-’94)PER 23.2, .173 WS/48, +4.5 BPM in 37.4 mpg
89.6 WS, cumulative VORP: 32.8
Career EnglishPer 100 poss (rs): 30.2 pts, 7.7 reb, 5.1 ast, 1.3 stl, 1.0 blk, 3.4 tov @ .550 TS%
19.9 PER, .127 WS/48, 111 ORtg/110 DRtg (+1) in 31.9 mpg
100.7 rs WS
Per 100 poss (playoffs): 31.1 pts, 7.0 reb, 5.5 ast, 0.9 stl, 0.6 blk, 2.7 tov @ .556 TS%
19.9 PER, .129 WS/48, 116 ORtg/115 DRtg (+1) in 35.7 mpg
6.5 playoff WS
Career WilkinsPer 100 poss (rs): 34.7 pts, 9.3 reb, 3.5 ast, 1.8 stl, 0.8 blk, 3.5 tov @ .536 TS%
21.6 PER, .148 WS/48, 112 ORtg/108 DRtg (+4) in 35.5 mpg.
117.5 rs WS
Per 100 poss (playoffs): 33.8 pts, 8.9 reb, 3.4 ast, 1.7 stl, 0.8 blk, 3.6 tov @ .510 TS%
18.7 PER, .079 WS/48, 106 ORtg/112 DRtg (-6) in 38.8 mpg
3.6 playoff WS
So Nique looks better in the rs, English looks better in the playoffs (though neither made a huge playoff imprint in their careers, nor has a particularly sizeable playoff game sample size).
I'll also make note of the difference in pts/100 possessions (both rs and playoffs). You've said previously that English gives the "same scoring volume (but on better efficiency)"; but that's not actually true. English, in fact, only has ONE season where he EVER topped Nique's career avg in pts/100 possessions.
I think English’s reputation as a scorer is perhaps a little inflated by the pace and focus on offense that existed on Doug Moe’s Nuggets. During English’s tenure in Denver (third of ‘80 season, then ‘81-’90), the Nuggets had the league’s fastest pace
every single year from ‘81 thru ‘89 (
sometimes by >5 over the 2nd-fastest team!), and were 2nd in pace in ‘90. Consequently, if you adjust for his numbers for pace, things come back to Earth a little.
English’s best year as a scorer was probably either ‘86 (35.9 pts/100 possessions on +2.15% to league TS%) or ‘82 (30.2 pts/100 poss on TS% +5.75% to league).
Dominique’s best year as a scorer was ‘93 (39.4 pts/100 poss on TS% +3.4% to league)--->I would say Nique wins the battle of scoring peak.
Looking at longer samples, English closes the gap, but doesn't definitively take the lead.......
Prime English (‘81-’89):
32.6 pts/100 poss, +1.9% to league TS%
career: 30.2 pts/100 poss, +1.65% to league TS%
Prime Wilkins (‘86-’94): 36.9 pts/100 poss, +0.8% to league TS%
career: 34.7 pts/100 poss, +/- 0% to league TS%
Couple other measures (career rs stats, fwiw):
Pts/Missed FGA: English--- 2.468, Wilkins--- 2.29
Pts/Turnover: English---- 8.97, Wilkins--- 9.99
So Nique’s obv right there with him as a scorer, arguably marginally better [at least in the rs] imo.
wrt the playoffs, I can't help feeling like opposing defenses couldn't preferentially focus in on English in the same way they would target Nique.......because some of those Denver teams also had Kiki Vandeweghe, Dan Issel, Calvin Natt, then Michael Adams: other guys who could put the ball in the bucket. I'm not sure guys like Kevin Willis or Doc Rivers truly compare as far as guys you need to worry about going off on you, if you cheat toward shutting down Nique.
This is not to say Nique's playoff regression isn't a valid criticism; it absolutely is. But it, shall we say, carries less relevance out here at #90 (when considering all the Nique accomplished in the rs).
And maybe there's something to Nique's bigger fan/media/accolade presence. Those are the guys that drive the imaginations of new generations, and generally drive the increasing popularity of the game........and that's important to the league's evolution.
So those would be my arguments as to why Nique > English.