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2023-24 Season Discussion and Speculation 5 - the calm before the storm

Moderators: bwgood77, Qwigglez, lilfishi22

Who will get the 7/8 seeds?

Pelicans/Lakers
2
13%
Pelicans/Warriors
2
13%
Pelicans/Kings
0
No votes
Lakers/Pelicans
4
25%
Lakers/Warriors
5
31%
Lakers/Kings
3
19%
 
Total votes: 16

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Re: 2023-24 Season Discussion and Speculation 5 - The final stretch & battle for the 6 seed 

Post#1781 » by Slim Charless » Thu Apr 11, 2024 7:59 pm

Revived wrote:
Read on Twitter


Its funny how a smart team like the Mavs were able to acquire a star player without giving up the farm and just one measly 1st rd pick and still maintained assets to trade for and acquire guys like Gafford and Washington.

Can you imagine if Suns made the trade for Kyrie instead and gave up just a 1st for him like Mavs did? So we keep Mikal and Cam.

Kyrie
Booker
Bridges
Johnson
*Gafford

*I think Ayton still gets traded.

Best part of this the Suns would still have lot of assets left to improve the bench and potentially upgrade from Cam Johnson if wanted.


Beal is a better player than Gafford and we got him for less. I know this year hasn't been the best, but Beal is legit. That was 1 of JJ's few good moves.
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Re: 2023-24 Season Discussion and Speculation 5 - The final stretch & battle for the 6 seed 

Post#1782 » by Son of Ra » Thu Apr 11, 2024 8:48 pm

grumpysaddle wrote:I think Durant is one of the all-time greats, but if we could trade him straight up for Jimmy Buckets, I'd probably do it. Miami wouldn't though.

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Re: 2023-24 Season Discussion and Speculation 5 - The final stretch & battle for the 6 seed 

Post#1783 » by Ghost of Kleine » Thu Apr 11, 2024 9:38 pm

Slim Charless wrote:
Revived wrote:
Read on Twitter


Its funny how a smart team like the Mavs were able to acquire a star player without giving up the farm and just one measly 1st rd pick and still maintained assets to trade for and acquire guys like Gafford and Washington.

Can you imagine if Suns made the trade for Kyrie instead and gave up just a 1st for him like Mavs did? So we keep Mikal and Cam.

Kyrie
Booker
Bridges
Johnson
*Gafford

*I think Ayton still gets traded.

Best part of this the Suns would still have lot of assets left to improve the bench and potentially upgrade from Cam Johnson if wanted.


Beal is a better player than Gafford and we got him for less. I know this year hasn't been the best, but Beal is legit. That was 1 of JJ's few good moves.


Jones does deserve a little credit for his creativity in doing pick swaps, so I'm happy to give him that. And overall, Beal is surely a much better player (although significantly more costly) and I have become somewhat fond of him for his willingness to actually show effort, grit, and an actual give a **** attitude more than our other two stars! But I'm sorry man that for my part, I just can't agree that we got him for less than what we gave up for Beal man considering that all the Mavs gave up to get him was Richaun Holmes salary and a 2024' first (least favorable of Thunder/Mavs pick).
https://www.si.com/nba/wizards/news/how-the-dallas-mavericks-and-washington-wizards-are-faring-following-daniel-gafford-trade

And Beal (although clearly the much better overall talent) will cost us upwards of $53-57 million over the next three seasons while Gafford (although the lesser talent) will only cost them upwards of $13-14 million over the next three seasons. But the point is we gave up around 43+ million in salaries and cumulatively around 4 pick swaps and 6 future 2nds (I count every two 2nds as equitable value equal to one non lotto first/ standard first at .50% of 1st round value) so more or less three future first in terms of value (cost controlled under new CBA). And I know that 1st swaps are better than giving up straight firsts, BUT..........................in the coming year ranges of 26, 28, and 2030, We'll likely be pretty bad, and none of those firsts we'll have control over! They could very likely be lottery- high lotto ranges with Washington having discretion over them. Those three pick swaps cumulatively should hold significantly more value alone than the 2024 1st from either Dallas or OKC as top seeded playoff teams for this year.

Don't get me wrong, I've come around on liking Beal by a fair margin! HOWEVER, I still don't like the cumulative value that we gave up for him in that deal CONSIDERING OUR LEVERAGE in that:

1- Beals' "no trade clause" basically gave him full authority to choose exactly where he wanted to go!
2- He outright stated that he only wanted Phoenix, and post statement Washington really HAD NO THER SUITORS.
3- Washingtons' ownership/front office was very open about their and their fanbases aggressive desire to move him (get off his salary) and finally begin their long overdue rebuild. There new GM (Dawkins) and executive (Michael Winger) both were adamant about trading Beal in order to expedite their rebuild plans:

https://theathletic.com/5144396/2023/12/18/roadmap-rebuild-wizards-roster-improvement/
The Wizards’ new regime was determined to move Beal’s contract, and did so, trading Beal to Phoenix in June, marking the official start of Washington’s teardown.


4- Once Beal openly chose Phoenix (with his no trade clause factor) the only curious suitor at the time in Miami quickly pivoted to Lillard pursuit, and again there were really no other suitors/competition for us to bid against, And we bid against ourselves as his only legitimate suitor.

5- Bradley Beals' huge contract in conjunction with his well documented injury history/ durability issues are clearly a depreciative value factor for any team investing in him, and clearly we did nothing to leverage this factor either. As good as Beal is for a star talent, there's an obvious reason that only maybe two teams were remotely showing interest in him. And one team bailed without much fight leaving only us. that glaring factor (that we've experienced just this season) being his contract salary in relation to his injury issues. So the implied risk involved is massive that whichever team acquiring him WILL NOT get anywhere near equitable value/ production for his contract or salary!

That's 5 clear and significant factors that Jones (not surprisingly) ignored that could've been easily leveraged in our favor, meaning basically we held all of the leverage with Washington really having none. So regardless of swaps being a creative strategy, we still significantly overpaid given the context of the situation and corresponding implied risks involved to us. The cumulative value given up therefore is significantly more than what the Mavs gave up for Gafford, even though Beal is an astronomically better overall talent all things considered. And again, I've become a fan of Beal, just not the cumulative value given to get him when in truth we held all the leverage! ................................................Just as we did with KD, only difference in that trade is that KD didn't have a "no trade clause" AND actually did have other interested suitors.

But all things considered, it does make sense that Jones would aggressively/creatively find a way to offload every available asset (especially draft) that we have in both the KD and Beal trades as we all know full well of him how much he dislikes the draft and doesn't value it at all nor is he even willing to do proper scouting. Just like he does the absolute minimum each free agency and trade deadline. aside of course from surrendering assets whenever possible to resign players he just recently let walk for nothing. All par for the course knowing Jones and his aversion to actually doing his job like other GMs. :banghead:
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Re: 2023-24 Season Discussion and Speculation 5 - The final stretch & battle for the 6 seed 

Post#1784 » by Revived » Thu Apr 11, 2024 10:09 pm

Slim Charless wrote:
Revived wrote:
Read on Twitter


Its funny how a smart team like the Mavs were able to acquire a star player without giving up the farm and just one measly 1st rd pick and still maintained assets to trade for and acquire guys like Gafford and Washington.

Can you imagine if Suns made the trade for Kyrie instead and gave up just a 1st for him like Mavs did? So we keep Mikal and Cam.

Kyrie
Booker
Bridges
Johnson
*Gafford

*I think Ayton still gets traded.

Best part of this the Suns would still have lot of assets left to improve the bench and potentially upgrade from Cam Johnson if wanted.


Beal is a better player than Gafford and we got him for less. I know this year hasn't been the best, but Beal is legit. That was 1 of JJ's few good moves.

When considering durability (which is the best ability), no Beal is definitely not.

Beal is overall still a top 3 worst contract in the NBA right now. He’s a negative asset that no team would trade for. Gafford is an elite shot blocker on a super great contract for the next couple years and he’s still in his mid 20s.

If Ishbia called Mark Cuban to offer Beal for Gafford plus fillers to make salary work, Cuban would die on the spot from laughing way too hard.
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Re: 2023-24 Season Discussion and Speculation 5 - The final stretch & battle for the 6 seed 

Post#1785 » by Slim Charless » Thu Apr 11, 2024 10:17 pm

I still have faith in Beal. Idk
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Re: 2023-24 Season Discussion and Speculation 5 - The final stretch & battle for the 6 seed 

Post#1786 » by Revived » Thu Apr 11, 2024 11:05 pm

Read on Twitter


Thybulle has become an elite level perimeter defender in just his rookie season itself.
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Re: 2023-24 Season Discussion and Speculation 5 - The final stretch & battle for the 6 seed 

Post#1787 » by SunsRback4Good » Thu Apr 11, 2024 11:11 pm

Revived wrote:
Read on Twitter


Thybulle has become an elite level perimeter defender in just his rookie season itself.


Isn’t he similar to Ben Simmons both play terrific defense but can’t make a basket?
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Re: 2023-24 Season Discussion and Speculation 5 - The final stretch & battle for the 6 seed 

Post#1788 » by Stix » Thu Apr 11, 2024 11:16 pm

Slim Charless wrote:I still have faith in Beal. Idk


:roll:
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Re: 2023-24 Season Discussion and Speculation 5 - The final stretch & battle for the 6 seed 

Post#1789 » by SunsRback4Good » Thu Apr 11, 2024 11:20 pm

Stix wrote:
Slim Charless wrote:I still have faith in Beal. Idk


:roll:


Hey hey Beal is a saint who can’t do no wrong.




Spoiler:
NOT!!!
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Re: 2023-24 Season Discussion and Speculation 5 - The final stretch & battle for the 6 seed 

Post#1790 » by bwgood77 » Fri Apr 12, 2024 12:07 am

Qwigglez wrote:
Revived wrote:
Its funny how a smart team like the Mavs were able to acquire a star player without giving up the farm and just one measly 1st rd pick and still maintained assets to trade for and acquire guys like Gafford and Washington.

Can you imagine if Suns made the trade for Kyrie instead and gave up just a 1st for him like Mavs did? So we keep Mikal and Cam.

Kyrie
Booker
Bridges
Johnson
*Gafford

*I think Ayton still gets traded.

Best part of this the Suns would still have lot of assets left to improve the bench and potentially upgrade from Cam Johnson if wanted.


Can you... not mention Kyrie. :lol:
I think the Suns were close to trading CP3 and picks for Kyrie before the Mavs swooped in. IDK why Kyrie got such little return, I know he was an upcoming free agent at the time, but the market always favors the team that holds his bird rights.

While last year's playoffs were spectacular to watch with Booker and KD teeing off, I can't imagine what a Kyrie, Booker, Bridges Johnson... and even Ayton team could have accomplished.
The funny thing is, what team could have traded for KD besides the Suns? Perhaps the Thunder could have, but I'm not seeing many teams line up to trade for KD and his contract without giving up the farm. Suns could have likely traded for Kyrie, and then perhaps even traded for KD over the summer for Bridges and Ayton.
I only hope that Ishbia learns from this and wises up. This upcoming draft they better do their research, and you know... perhaps not trade the pick and develop some younger players because the band of misfit mercenaries isn't likely going to win a championship. Especially when you do not have vocal players who play with heart, and actually get to play. It's nice to hear Thad Young and IT are vocal leaders in the locker room, but there is a huge difference when the vocal leaders are getting 30 minutes a game.


Kyrie was able to be had for a lot less because he was expiring...and could leave in the summer...could lose him for nothing. Plus his market was small.

KD had already signed a 4 year extension so he had a lot more value. Though since he only wanted the Suns we did have some leverage if we waited until the offseason. Of course they were not forced to trade him to us if someone else put up a great offer.
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Re: 2023-24 Season Discussion and Speculation 5 - The final stretch & battle for the 6 seed 

Post#1791 » by sunsbum » Fri Apr 12, 2024 12:10 am

Anyone else hoping Pelicans to win tonight? I honestly want the suns to have to prove it from rock bottom that they actually give a ****. They definitely don't deserve ANYTHING handed to them at this point.
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Re: 2023-24 Season Discussion and Speculation 5 - The final stretch & battle for the 6 seed 

Post#1792 » by Slim Charless » Fri Apr 12, 2024 12:31 am

As long as the Dubs get the Pels in the play-in. Really wanna Draymond and the rest get eliminated early. I think NOP will run circles around Golden State.
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Re: 2023-24 Season Discussion and Speculation 5 - The final stretch & battle for the 6 seed 

Post#1793 » by Slim Charless » Fri Apr 12, 2024 12:37 am

Revived wrote:
Read on Twitter


Thybulle has become an elite level perimeter defender in just his rookie season itself.


He's always been elite there. I was hoping we'd get him in the Ayton trade. Obviously no luck there.
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Re: 2023-24 Season Discussion and Speculation 5 - The final stretch & battle for the 6 seed 

Post#1794 » by garrick » Fri Apr 12, 2024 1:47 am

Ghost of Kleine wrote:
Slim Charless wrote:
Revived wrote:
Read on Twitter


Its funny how a smart team like the Mavs were able to acquire a star player without giving up the farm and just one measly 1st rd pick and still maintained assets to trade for and acquire guys like Gafford and Washington.

Can you imagine if Suns made the trade for Kyrie instead and gave up just a 1st for him like Mavs did? So we keep Mikal and Cam.

Kyrie
Booker
Bridges
Johnson
*Gafford

*I think Ayton still gets traded.

Best part of this the Suns would still have lot of assets left to improve the bench and potentially upgrade from Cam Johnson if wanted.


Beal is a better player than Gafford and we got him for less. I know this year hasn't been the best, but Beal is legit. That was 1 of JJ's few good moves.


Jones does deserve a little credit for his creativity in doing pick swaps, so I'm happy to give him that. And overall, Beal is surely a much better player (although significantly more costly) and I have become somewhat fond of him for his willingness to actually show effort, grit, and an actual give a **** attitude more than our other two stars! But I'm sorry man that for my part, I just can't agree that we got him for less than what we gave up for Beal man considering that all the Mavs gave up to get him was Richaun Holmes salary and a 2024' first (least favorable of Thunder/Mavs pick).
https://www.si.com/nba/wizards/news/how-the-dallas-mavericks-and-washington-wizards-are-faring-following-daniel-gafford-trade

And Beal (although clearly the much better overall talent) will cost us upwards of $53-57 million over the next three seasons while Gafford (although the lesser talent) will only cost them upwards of $13-14 million over the next three seasons. But the point is we gave up around 43+ million in salaries and cumulatively around 4 pick swaps and 6 future 2nds (I count every two 2nds as equitable value equal to one non lotto first/ standard first at .50% of 1st round value) so more or less three future first in terms of value (cost controlled under new CBA). And I know that 1st swaps are better than giving up straight firsts, BUT..........................in the coming year ranges of 26, 28, and 2030, We'll likely be pretty bad, and none of those firsts we'll have control over! They could very likely be lottery- high lotto ranges with Washington having discretion over them. Those three pick swaps cumulatively should hold significantly more value alone than the 2024 1st from either Dallas or OKC as top seeded playoff teams for this year.

Don't get me wrong, I've come around on liking Beal by a fair margin! HOWEVER, I still don't like the cumulative value that we gave up for him in that deal CONSIDERING OUR LEVERAGE in that:

1- Beals' "no trade clause" basically gave him full authority to choose exactly where he wanted to go!
2- He outright stated that he only wanted Phoenix, and post statement Washington really HAD NO THER SUITORS.
3- Washingtons' ownership/front office was very open about their and their fanbases aggressive desire to move him (get off his salary) and finally begin their long overdue rebuild. There new GM (Dawkins) and executive (Michael Winger) both were adamant about trading Beal in order to expedite their rebuild plans:

https://theathletic.com/5144396/2023/12/18/roadmap-rebuild-wizards-roster-improvement/
The Wizards’ new regime was determined to move Beal’s contract, and did so, trading Beal to Phoenix in June, marking the official start of Washington’s teardown.


4- Once Beal openly chose Phoenix (with his no trade clause factor) the only curious suitor at the time in Miami quickly pivoted to Lillard pursuit, and again there were really no other suitors/competition for us to bid against, And we bid against ourselves as his only legitimate suitor.

5- Bradley Beals' huge contract in conjunction with his well documented injury history/ durability issues are clearly a depreciative value factor for any team investing in him, and clearly we did nothing to leverage this factor either. As good as Beal is for a star talent, there's an obvious reason that only maybe two teams were remotely showing interest in him. And one team bailed without much fight leaving only us. that glaring factor (that we've experienced just this season) being his contract salary in relation to his injury issues. So the implied risk involved is massive that whichever team acquiring him WILL NOT get anywhere near equitable value/ production for his contract or salary!

That's 5 clear and significant factors that Jones (not surprisingly) ignored that could've been easily leveraged in our favor, meaning basically we held all of the leverage with Washington really having none. So regardless of swaps being a creative strategy, we still significantly overpaid given the context of the situation and corresponding implied risks involved to us. The cumulative value given up therefore is significantly more than what the Mavs gave up for Gafford, even though Beal is an astronomically better overall talent all things considered. And again, I've become a fan of Beal, just not the cumulative value given to get him when in truth we held all the leverage! ................................................Just as we did with KD, only difference in that trade is that KD didn't have a "no trade clause" AND actually did have other interested suitors.

But all things considered, it does make sense that Jones would aggressively/creatively find a way to offload every available asset (especially draft) that we have in both the KD and Beal trades as we all know full well of him how much he dislikes the draft and doesn't value it at all nor is he even willing to do proper scouting. Just like he does the absolute minimum each free agency and trade deadline. aside of course from surrendering assets whenever possible to resign players he just recently let walk for nothing. All par for the course knowing Jones and his aversion to actually doing his job like other GMs. :banghead:


Good points!

Also Beal is clearly the superior talent but a player like Gafford is actually what we need more.

We desperately need a big man who can be not super terrible on defense and can score inside & rebound.

Beal is a much better talent but his spot is redundant when we have Book and Grayson and Beal does nothing to help us with rebounding and defense.
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Re: 2023-24 Season Discussion and Speculation 5 - The final stretch & battle for the 6 seed 

Post#1795 » by Ghost of Kleine » Fri Apr 12, 2024 1:58 am

bwgood77 wrote:
Qwigglez wrote:
Revived wrote:
Its funny how a smart team like the Mavs were able to acquire a star player without giving up the farm and just one measly 1st rd pick and still maintained assets to trade for and acquire guys like Gafford and Washington.

Can you imagine if Suns made the trade for Kyrie instead and gave up just a 1st for him like Mavs did? So we keep Mikal and Cam.

Kyrie
Booker
Bridges
Johnson
*Gafford

*I think Ayton still gets traded.

Best part of this the Suns would still have lot of assets left to improve the bench and potentially upgrade from Cam Johnson if wanted.


Can you... not mention Kyrie. :lol:
I think the Suns were close to trading CP3 and picks for Kyrie before the Mavs swooped in. IDK why Kyrie got such little return, I know he was an upcoming free agent at the time, but the market always favors the team that holds his bird rights.

While last year's playoffs were spectacular to watch with Booker and KD teeing off, I can't imagine what a Kyrie, Booker, Bridges Johnson... and even Ayton team could have accomplished.
The funny thing is, what team could have traded for KD besides the Suns? Perhaps the Thunder could have, but I'm not seeing many teams line up to trade for KD and his contract without giving up the farm. Suns could have likely traded for Kyrie, and then perhaps even traded for KD over the summer for Bridges and Ayton.
I only hope that Ishbia learns from this and wises up. This upcoming draft they better do their research, and you know... perhaps not trade the pick and develop some younger players because the band of misfit mercenaries isn't likely going to win a championship. Especially when you do not have vocal players who play with heart, and actually get to play. It's nice to hear Thad Young and IT are vocal leaders in the locker room, but there is a huge difference when the vocal leaders are getting 30 minutes a game.


Kyrie was able to be had for a lot less because he was expiring...and could leave in the summer...could lose him for nothing. Plus his market was small.

KD had already signed a 4 year extension so he had a lot more value. Though since he only wanted the Suns we did have some leverage if we waited until the offseason. Of course they were not forced to trade him to us if someone else put up a great offer.


also because Joe Tsai (owner) couldn't stand him and his antics and vehemently wanted him gone! But yeah! it was a perfect timing/ opportunity situation that just fell in the Mavs laps. sometimes things just lineup that way it seems. :nod:
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Re: 2023-24 Season Discussion and Speculation 5 - The final stretch & battle for the 6 seed 

Post#1796 » by Hitachi77 » Fri Apr 12, 2024 2:50 am

Not to mention Kyrie was a headcase and more injury prone than KD (KD has only been hurt in the playoffs once, Kyrie has several times). Come on guys lol.
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Re: 2023-24 Season Discussion and Speculation 5 - The final stretch & battle for the 6 seed 

Post#1797 » by Sunlight » Fri Apr 12, 2024 4:23 am

Losing three times to one of the worst teams ever and then hoping for God's help that certain teams lose. A place of rebuilding. I am a positive person, but we were sold something completely different from what we have seen.
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Re: 2023-24 Season Discussion and Speculation 5 - The final stretch & battle for the 6 seed 

Post#1798 » by NE1Care » Fri Apr 12, 2024 4:24 am

Pelicans win. The Suns will have to earn it. I would like to see some fire in them, some heart.
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Re: 2023-24 Season Discussion and Speculation 5 - The final stretch & battle for the 6 seed 

Post#1799 » by sunsbg » Fri Apr 12, 2024 5:04 am

NOP vs SAC 5:0 season series. Lol. Weird Pels finish the season against all three teams tied for 8-10 spots. They very likely beat GSW tomorrow if Green and Klay are still out. Pels clinch 6th seed if we lose to Kings and will rest their players against Lakers. Suns losing both remaining games almost certainly means 9th spot likely facing GSW in the play-in.
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Re: 2023-24 Season Discussion and Speculation 5 - The final stretch & battle for the 6 seed 

Post#1800 » by Biff » Fri Apr 12, 2024 5:46 am

Slim Charless wrote:
Revived wrote:
Read on Twitter


Its funny how a smart team like the Mavs were able to acquire a star player without giving up the farm and just one measly 1st rd pick and still maintained assets to trade for and acquire guys like Gafford and Washington.

Can you imagine if Suns made the trade for Kyrie instead and gave up just a 1st for him like Mavs did? So we keep Mikal and Cam.

Kyrie
Booker
Bridges
Johnson
*Gafford

*I think Ayton still gets traded.

Best part of this the Suns would still have lot of assets left to improve the bench and potentially upgrade from Cam Johnson if wanted.


Beal is a better player than Gafford and we got him for less. I know this year hasn't been the best, but Beal is legit. That was 1 of JJ's few good moves.


Relative to his contract, Beal is significantly worse than Gafford. Having him on our team hamstrings the hell out of us and we have no ability to make any moves. It's probably the worst trade in Suns history. Beal has been atrocious all year.
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