NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2023-24 (Part 5: So who's winning MVP? )

[Exp0sed]

y

You used term the most disgraceful MVP vote. It clearly wasn't.

I doubt very much that Jokic deserves or will get 8 MVPs, unless he becomes real GOAT, which I doubt very much too. I'm all for having a bet about that with you.

Don't you think it would be funny, if he ends with far the most MVPs in the history and wins only few titles?

Hype about Jokic went too far, he has 1 title being 29 years old, not exactly something extraordinary.

clearly wasn't?
imo it was, idk if it was the "most" but def top 3 most disgraceful all time, but that's beside the main point

to you question, I do think it could be "funny" if Jokic had 6 r 8 MVPs but such is life..it's funny sometimes

your last part just sounds like another run of the mill Jokic hater
you literally made 50 posts itt regarding Luka's "unluckyness" throughout his career and particulraly this season. with roster and injury issues but for some reason the same logic doesn't apply to Jokic. wouldn't u call that double standards?

Jokic will be widely considered a top 10 player when all is said and done
Dirk is widely considered a top 15-20 player despite having one title only

Jokic was drafted in the 2nd round, took a season and a half for his numbnuts coach to pick him over Nurkic (lol)
his co-stars (who aren't that good to begin with compared to basically anyone in the top 20) weren't available for a few seperate seasons. he has been nothing but stellar in his postseason play and in the first real attempt he had, with an actual squad that is available, has some talent and fit - he delievered an historic championship to a small market team

if he was selected by a a big time franchise with endless pockets and the ability to attract players in FA and trades, he'd probably have 3 rings already

those are circumstences beyond his control
the hype is spot on, Jokic is a true atg and a joy to watch at that

[Woodsanity]

So Luka is ahead of Jokic in points and assists, the two main stats that matter.

Didn’t Jokic win this award as a 6th seed? What seed are the Mavs in again?

22 Jokic PER: 32.8

24 Luka PER: 28.1

Jokic had no Jamal Murray or MPJ either so yea cute comparison but Luka isn't on 22 Jokic level. Remove his top two players and he is low 40s win count at most considering he is only at 50 right now with Kyrie.

Not to mention Jokic was only 3 wins behind Embiid with better stats

While Doncic has lesser stats than Jokic and is 6 wins behind.

Per means he didn’t do it though right? We’re talking about actual production vs would have, could have, should have stats. Being available for your team is a huge part of the MVP award. So if Jokic COULD have gotten better numbers by playing 36 min a night, then why didn’t he? The fact is he didn’t play 36 min a night and therefore his stats are not as good as Luka’s.

Jokic played 39.5 minutes per game in the playoffs on the way to the championship and averaged 30/13.5/9.5 on 63 TS%, literally doing it on the biggest stage against elite defensive centers and with a big sample.

If you won the game already why would you stay in, sorry he isn't statpadding in garbage time.

He also still played way more minutes than Luka this season cause he doesn't get to take games off like Luka.

Jokic can put up way bigger numbers if he wants but he is basically an anti-statpadder. The guy went 2 for 3 against the Pistons with 16 assists.

Sorry your cute he can't do it in bigger minutes argument doesn't work.

[zero rings]

So Luka is ahead of Jokic in points and assists, the two main stats that matter.

Didn’t Jokic win this award as a 6th seed? What seed are the Mavs in again?

22 Jokic PER: 32.8

24 Luka PER: 28.1

Jokic had no Jamal Murray or MPJ either so yea cute comparison but Luka isn't on 22 Jokic level. Remove his top two players and he is low 40s win count at most considering he is only at 50 right now with Kyrie.

Not to mention Jokic was only 3 wins behind Embiid with better stats

While Doncic has lesser stats than Jokic and is 6 wins behind.

Per means he didn’t do it though right? We’re talking about actual production vs would have, could have, should have stats. Being available for your team is a huge part of the MVP award. So if Jokic COULD have gotten better numbers by playing 36 min a night, then why didn’t he? The fact is he didn’t play 36 min a night and therefore his stats are not as good as Luka’s.

Luka doesn’t have better stats. He’s scoring 7.3 more ppg on 5.6 more FGA and 3.1 more FTA. All that extra production is coming on well below average efficiency, meaning it isn’t valuable and is easily replaced. This is reflected in every single box score metric (BPM, PER, WS, etc) which Jokic leads comfortably.

[hagredionis]

Looking at it objectively it's almost impossible not to give Luka the MVP

1st PPG by a huge margin
1st in total points
2nd APG
2nd in total assists
2nd in potential asists
1st among all guards in RPG
1st among all guard in total rebounds
top 10 defensive RPG
top 10 in steals per game
1st in 45 points games
1st in 40 points games
1st in 35 points games
1st in +30 points triple doubles
the first ever 33 ppg / 9 asp / 9 rpg season in the history of the NBA
record for most consecutive 30 point triple-doubles ever in the history of the NBA
most PPG + RPG + APG in the last 50 years
a historical 73 point game, 4th highest ever in the history of the NBA
broke the Mavs franchise record for a single season points scored, a record which stood for 40 years
Most Player of the Month awards
Most Player of the Week awards

And he did all while his team had the worst luck with injuries of all other MVP candidates' teams by far. Basically the only argument for Jokic over Luka I can see is advanced stats but we all know that a center will always have better advanced stats than a PG, it's just how basketball works.

[Special_Puppy]

Looking at it objectively it's almost impossible not to give Luka the MVP

1st PPG by a huge margin
1st in total points
2nd APG
2nd in total assists
2nd in potential asists
1st among all guards in RPG
1st among all guard in total rebounds
top 10 defensive RPG
top 10 in steals per game
1st in 45 points games
1st in 40 points games
1st in 35 points games
1st in +30 points triple doubles
the first ever 33 ppg / 9 asp / 9 rpg season in the history of the NBA
record for most consecutive 30 point triple-doubles ever in the history of the NBA
most PPG + RPG + APG in the last 50 years
a historical 73 point game, 4th highest ever in the history of the NBA
broke the Mavs franchise record for a single season points scored, a record which stood for 40 years
Most Player of the Month awards
Most Player of the Week awards

And he did all while his team had the worst luck with injuries of all other MVP candidates' teams by far. Basically the only argument for Jokic over Luka I can see is advanced stats but we all know that a center will always have better advanced stats than a PG, it's just how basketball works.

I don’t get the argument that advanced stats favor big men. Curry and Harden were the two advanced stats darlings from 2015 to 2020

[zero rings]

Basically the only argument for Jokic over Luka I can see is advanced stats but we all know that a center will always have better advanced stats than a PG, it's just how basketball works.

Even if this were true (it’s not), so what? Being tall is an advantage in basketball. There’s no weighted scores for shorter players.

Jalen Brunson is 6 inches shorter than Luka. Why aren’t you campaigning for him as MVP?

[Infinite Llamas]

I’m glad we’ve shifted the MVP criteria to “45 point games” and “player of the weeks”

“Objectively” lmao

[Special_Puppy]

I will be a lot shorter. Just look at MJ from 87-97. 9 years far the best advanced stats, 9x first defensive team, 10x the best scorer. Bulls winning multiple 60+ games, once 72, and yet he never won 3x in a row, only 5 MVP.


And now I'm hearing that Jokic has GOAT 4 years period, not by you, Denver having only once over 50 wins before this year. People are becoming totally disconnected from reality.

They won't gave him 6 MVP unless he wins multiple rings in next years and Denver starts looking like the best team in Nba should.

a couple of things:
first of all, as you mentioned - "not you", I haven't compared Jokic's peak to MJ itt or in any other thread nor do I think they are comparable. but that's not measured in MVPs...

secondly, MJ deserved more MVP's, you won't get any arguments from me there (and no, "advanced stats" isn't the sole criteria)

I think we both agree on all of this. where we differ is that you think that because MJ, LBJ and others were slighted and didn't get what they deserved by voters at that time, your argument is that voters of the current time should take that under consideration because otherwise Jokic might end up with more MVP's then those guys (and other players as well) and in my book - two wrongs don't make a right

that's where I think we differ

I'm telling you that they're just not giving that many MVP awards to anyone just because his advanced stats are superior. Jokic won't ever again get MVP for 6th place in West standing for example. Denver would need to be dominant and winning titles for Jokic to get over 5. They will find reasoning to give award to someone different, like they found with MJ or LeBron.

Yeah For Jokic to get 5 MVPs, Denver (or whatever team he is on) would when to probably win like 3 titles

[Special_Puppy]

If Jokic wins MVP this year my guess is that this will be his last MVP as voter fatigue and aging kicks in

[hagredionis]

I’m glad we’ve shifted the MVP criteria to “45 point games” and “player of the weeks”

“Objectively” lmao

If a player gets the player of the week award more times than anybody else in the league that already means something. I am not saying it's one of the main arguments for MVP, it isn't, but at the same time it can't be completely ignored either. With all the talent the league currently has you simply can't become the player of the week without doing something exceptional.

[dygaction]

https://www.nba.com/news/kia-mvp-ladder-april-12-2024-edition

Luka just fell to #3 while SGA climbing up the ladder.

[Ron Swanson]

Sucks that SGA had to miss games and sharply fall off the last month or so, because it really was shaping up to be an epic 2-man race down the stretch and he definitely would have deserved it had he kept up his November through mid-March level of play. But once again, it's Jokic.

[Yuri36]

Looking at it objectively it's almost impossible not to give Luka the MVP

1st PPG by a huge margin
1st in total points
2nd APG
2nd in total assists
2nd in potential asists
1st among all guards in RPG
1st among all guard in total rebounds
top 10 defensive RPG
top 10 in steals per game
1st in 45 points games
1st in 40 points games
1st in 35 points games
1st in +30 points triple doubles
the first ever 33 ppg / 9 asp / 9 rpg season in the history of the NBA
record for most consecutive 30 point triple-doubles ever in the history of the NBA
most PPG + RPG + APG in the last 50 years
a historical 73 point game, 4th highest ever in the history of the NBA
broke the Mavs franchise record for a single season points scored, a record which stood for 40 years
Most Player of the Month awards
Most Player of the Week awards

And he did all while his team had the worst luck with injuries of all other MVP candidates' teams by far. Basically the only argument for Jokic over Luka I can see is advanced stats but we all know that a center will always have better advanced stats than a PG, it's just how basketball works.

What can we add after that except you totally ended this thread.

[Yuri36]

Looking at it objectively it's almost impossible not to give Luka the MVP

1st PPG by a huge margin
1st in total points
2nd APG
2nd in total assists
2nd in potential asists
1st among all guards in RPG
1st among all guard in total rebounds
top 10 defensive RPG
top 10 in steals per game
1st in 45 points games
1st in 40 points games
1st in 35 points games
1st in +30 points triple doubles
the first ever 33 ppg / 9 asp / 9 rpg season in the history of the NBA
record for most consecutive 30 point triple-doubles ever in the history of the NBA
most PPG + RPG + APG in the last 50 years
a historical 73 point game, 4th highest ever in the history of the NBA
broke the Mavs franchise record for a single season points scored, a record which stood for 40 years
Most Player of the Month awards
Most Player of the Week awards

And he did all while his team had the worst luck with injuries of all other MVP candidates' teams by far. Basically the only argument for Jokic over Luka I can see is advanced stats but we all know that a center will always have better advanced stats than a PG, it's just how basketball works.

I don’t get the argument that advanced stats favor big men. Curry and Harden were the two advanced stats darlings from 2015 to 2020

Well, you don't get basketball then.
And using two exceptions doesn't count as an argument, compare the average advanced stats of centers to the average advanced stats of guards for example and then, we can talk

[Mr B]

22 Jokic PER: 32.8

24 Luka PER: 28.1

Jokic had no Jamal Murray or MPJ either so yea cute comparison but Luka isn't on 22 Jokic level. Remove his top two players and he is low 40s win count at most considering he is only at 50 right now with Kyrie.

Not to mention Jokic was only 3 wins behind Embiid with better stats

While Doncic has lesser stats than Jokic and is 6 wins behind.

Per means he didn’t do it though right? We’re talking about actual production vs would have, could have, should have stats. Being available for your team is a huge part of the MVP award. So if Jokic COULD have gotten better numbers by playing 36 min a night, then why didn’t he? The fact is he didn’t play 36 min a night and therefore his stats are not as good as Luka’s.

Jokic played 39.5 minutes per game in the playoffs on the way to the championship and averaged 30/13.5/9.5 on 63 TS%, literally doing it on the biggest stage against elite defensive centers and with a big sample.

If you won the game already why would you stay in, sorry he isn't statpadding in garbage time.

He also still played way more minutes than Luka this season cause he doesn't get to take games off like Luka.

Jokic can put up way bigger numbers if he wants but he is basically an anti-statpadder. The guy went 2 for 3 against the Pistons with 16 assists.

Sorry your cute he can't do it in bigger minutes argument doesn't work.

The MVP award has nothing to do with how many minutes Jokic played in last years playoffs.

[Mr B]

22 Jokic PER: 32.8

24 Luka PER: 28.1

Jokic had no Jamal Murray or MPJ either so yea cute comparison but Luka isn't on 22 Jokic level. Remove his top two players and he is low 40s win count at most considering he is only at 50 right now with Kyrie.

Not to mention Jokic was only 3 wins behind Embiid with better stats

While Doncic has lesser stats than Jokic and is 6 wins behind.

Per means he didn’t do it though right? We’re talking about actual production vs would have, could have, should have stats. Being available for your team is a huge part of the MVP award. So if Jokic COULD have gotten better numbers by playing 36 min a night, then why didn’t he? The fact is he didn’t play 36 min a night and therefore his stats are not as good as Luka’s.

Luka doesn’t have better stats. He’s scoring 7.3 more ppg on 5.6 more FGA and 3.1 more FTA. All that extra production is coming on well below average efficiency, meaning it isn’t valuable and is easily replaced. This is reflected in every single box score metric (BPM, PER, WS, etc) which Jokic leads comfortably.

You say Luka doesn’t have better stats then you proceed to tell me Luka has better stats.

[Bob8]

y

You used term the most disgraceful MVP vote. It clearly wasn't.

I doubt very much that Jokic deserves or will get 8 MVPs, unless he becomes real GOAT, which I doubt very much too. I'm all for having a bet about that with you.

Don't you think it would be funny, if he ends with far the most MVPs in the history and wins only few titles?

Hype about Jokic went too far, he has 1 title being 29 years old, not exactly something extraordinary.

clearly wasn't?
imo it was, idk if it was the "most" but def top 3 most disgraceful all time, but that's beside the main point

to you question, I do think it could be "funny" if Jokic had 6 r 8 MVPs but such is life..it's funny sometimes

your last part just sounds like another run of the mill Jokic hater
you literally made 50 posts itt regarding Luka's "unluckyness" throughout his career and particulraly this season. with roster and injury issues but for some reason the same logic doesn't apply to Jokic. wouldn't u call that double standards?

Jokic will be widely considered a top 10 player when all is said and done
Dirk is widely considered a top 15-20 player despite having one title only

Jokic was drafted in the 2nd round, took a season and a half for his numbnuts coach to pick him over Nurkic (lol)
his co-stars (who aren't that good to begin with compared to basically anyone in the top 20) weren't available for a few seperate seasons. he has been nothing but stellar in his postseason play and in the first real attempt he had, with an actual squad that is available, has some talent and fit - he delievered an historic championship to a small market team

if he was selected by a a big time franchise with endless pockets and the ability to attract players in FA and trades, he'd probably have 3 rings already

those are circumstences beyond his control
the hype is spot on, Jokic is a true atg and a joy to watch at that

You're deliberate missing my point, around 8 MVPs is reserved for the GOAT, not someone around 10th position.

Hater? I said many times that he's the best player in last years. But he's long way away of being top 10, he needs at least 2 more rings.

I was advocating for Luka being better than SGA not Jokic. We have here people, who have numerous players in front of him, seeing Luka as non impactful player. Saying that Luka deserves being second and not agreeing that Jokic is on GOAT trajectory is not exactly the same. And Luka didn't win anything for playing with bad/injured roster, Jokic did. I kinda doubt he will get another 1 like in 2022. So I don't understand why are you bringing Luka in this debate.

One thing is admitting that Jokic is the best player now, totally true. Saying that what he's doing in last 4 years is GOAT level is just laughable. He has advanced stats on that GOAT level, but he will need a lot more of winning to be even in conversation for top 10. You can win single MVP based on circumstances, but nobody cares with who you're playing, if you want to win the most MVPs in the history.

[zzzyyxyyxzzz]

Luka doesn’t have better stats. He’s scoring 7.3 more ppg on 5.6 more FGA and 3.1 more FTA. All that extra production is coming on well below average efficiency, meaning it isn’t valuable and is easily replaced. This is reflected in every single box score metric (BPM, PER, WS, etc) which Jokic leads comfortably.

Second time today I read a similar post. Where is this "well below average efficiency" fantasy coming from? Please post facts when referencing stats, not delusions.

And you do understand that almost half of Luka's FG are 3pt attempts, right? He has over 500 more than Nikola this year.

As for the easily replaced... sure.

[Mr B]

Looking at it objectively it's almost impossible not to give Luka the MVP

1st PPG by a huge margin
1st in total points
2nd APG
2nd in total assists
2nd in potential asists
1st among all guards in RPG
1st among all guard in total rebounds
top 10 defensive RPG
top 10 in steals per game
1st in 45 points games
1st in 40 points games
1st in 35 points games
1st in +30 points triple doubles
the first ever 33 ppg / 9 asp / 9 rpg season in the history of the NBA
record for most consecutive 30 point triple-doubles ever in the history of the NBA
most PPG + RPG + APG in the last 50 years
a historical 73 point game, 4th highest ever in the history of the NBA
broke the Mavs franchise record for a single season points scored, a record which stood for 40 years
Most Player of the Month awards
Most Player of the Week awards

And he did all while his team had the worst luck with injuries of all other MVP candidates' teams by far. Basically the only argument for Jokic over Luka I can see is advanced stats but we all know that a center will always have better advanced stats than a PG, it's just how basketball works.

I don’t get the argument that advanced stats favor big men. Curry and Harden were the two advanced stats darlings from 2015 to 2020

You play closer to the basket so obviously your fg% and efficiency will be better. It’s not hard to figure out.

[Bob8]

22 Jokic PER: 32.8

24 Luka PER: 28.1

Jokic had no Jamal Murray or MPJ either so yea cute comparison but Luka isn't on 22 Jokic level. Remove his top two players and he is low 40s win count at most considering he is only at 50 right now with Kyrie.

Not to mention Jokic was only 3 wins behind Embiid with better stats

While Doncic has lesser stats than Jokic and is 6 wins behind.

Per means he didn’t do it though right? We’re talking about actual production vs would have, could have, should have stats. Being available for your team is a huge part of the MVP award. So if Jokic COULD have gotten better numbers by playing 36 min a night, then why didn’t he? The fact is he didn’t play 36 min a night and therefore his stats are not as good as Luka’s.

Luka doesn’t have better stats. He’s scoring 7.3 more ppg on 5.6 more FGA and 3.1 more FTA. All that extra production is coming on well below average efficiency, meaning it isn’t valuable and is easily replaced. This is reflected in every single box score metric (BPM, PER, WS, etc) which Jokic leads comfortably.

Below average efficiency = 3rd most efficient Pg in the league.

Easily replaced? Only 3 non shooting C and Exum have better efficiency. Exum shooting only wide open 3s. I don't exactly understand, who's easily replacing those points.