NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2023-24 (Part 5: So who's winning MVP? )

[Woodsanity]

Seems like Luka fans only really have two arguments that make zero sense.

1. Jokic can't put up those same numbers if he plays bigger minutes.
Literally had three playoff runs in a row where he averaged 30-31 ppg.... This is a 35 game sample size.

2. Luka has to play more minutes than Jokic and has to carry a bigger load.

Literally ignoring the fact that Jokic has played far more games than Luka and has more total minutes played this season, let's ignore the fact that Kyrie played more games than Murray. Let's also conveniently compare to 2022 Jokic who had no MPJ or Murray and had to play bums like Will Barton.

Lets only consider raw ppg and apg and ignore turnovers, efficiency, rebounds, etc.

Lets not forget Jokic had to play an entire postseason last year while Luka was sitting at home since he missed the playoffs.

Keep up your bad faith arguments at your own risk. I still have not seen any good ones besides the same bad rehashed bad faith arguments.

Its a shame I do like Luka, but his fanboys are something else. If Luka does better than Jokic I will give him his flowers but saying he has more ppg than Jokic and thats why he is better is absurd.

[famicommander]

Luka is a negative value player without the ball in his hands. He doesn't defend, he doesn't screen, he doesn't box out, he doesn't cut, he doesn't move without the ball. Either he's doing amazing, HOF level things with the ball in his hand or he's standing around doing absolutely nothing.

That's the reason Luka's impact numbers have never correlated to his box score stats the way they do for Jokic, Giannis, Embiid, LeBron, Curry, etc.

[hagredionis]

Luka is a negative value player without the ball in his hands. He doesn't defend, he doesn't screen, he doesn't box out, he doesn't cut, he doesn't move without the ball. Either he's doing amazing, HOF level things with the ball in his hand or he's standing around doing absolutely nothing.

That's the reason Luka's impact numbers have never correlated to his box score stats the way they do for Jokic, Giannis, Embiid, LeBron, Curry, etc.

Facepalm... just facepalm. If used correctly Luka is an above average defender due to his size and his high basketball IQ, he's also top 10 in steals and first in RPG among all guards in the NBA. This season he also quite often sets screen for Kyrie for example. Also what do you mean he doesn't box out, are you serious? Luka has more defensive rebounds per game than the DPOY candidate Wembanyama.

[famicommander]

Luka is a negative value player without the ball in his hands. He doesn't defend, he doesn't screen, he doesn't box out, he doesn't cut, he doesn't move without the ball. Either he's doing amazing, HOF level things with the ball in his hand or he's standing around doing absolutely nothing.

That's the reason Luka's impact numbers have never correlated to his box score stats the way they do for Jokic, Giannis, Embiid, LeBron, Curry, etc.

Facepalm... just facepalm. If used correctly Luka is an above average defender due to his size and his high basketball IQ, he's also top 10 in steals and first in RPG among all guards in the NBA. This season he also quite often sets screen for Kyrie for example. Also what do you mean he doesn't box out, are you serious? Luka has more defensive rebounds per game than the DPOY candidate Wembanyama.

The overwhelming majority of his rebounds are of the uncontested variety.

He has quick hands and he occasionally gambles which results in some steals, but teams target him all the time and it works. And for every one play on defense when he's engaged you can find five where he's not.

[Bob8]

Luka is a negative value player without the ball in his hands. He doesn't defend, he doesn't screen, he doesn't box out, he doesn't cut, he doesn't move without the ball. Either he's doing amazing, HOF level things with the ball in his hand or he's standing around doing absolutely nothing.

That's the reason Luka's impact numbers have never correlated to his box score stats the way they do for Jokic, Giannis, Embiid, LeBron, Curry, etc.

HOF level, when having ball, wow. I wonder how is possible that player that average will be 5x in a row in first All Nba team, being only 25 years old? How many players in the history achieved that?

It would be extremely hilarious, if Mavs win this year and Luka has with 25 years exactly the same number of rings than 4 years older player playing GOAT basketball.

Btw. Luka's impact numbers are suddenly extremely good after finally having good roster.

[dygaction]

22 Jokic PER: 32.8

24 Luka PER: 28.1

Jokic had no Jamal Murray or MPJ either so yea cute comparison but Luka isn't on 22 Jokic level. Remove his top two players and he is low 40s win count at most considering he is only at 50 right now with Kyrie.

Not to mention Jokic was only 3 wins behind Embiid with better stats

While Doncic has lesser stats than Jokic and is 6 wins behind.

Per means he didn’t do it though right? We’re talking about actual production vs would have, could have, should have stats. Being available for your team is a huge part of the MVP award. So if Jokic COULD have gotten better numbers by playing 36 min a night, then why didn’t he? The fact is he didn’t play 36 min a night and therefore his stats are not as good as Luka’s.

Luka doesn’t have better stats. He’s scoring 7.3 more ppg on 5.6 more FGA and 3.1 more FTA. All that extra production is coming on well below average efficiency, meaning it isn’t valuable and is easily replaced. This is reflected in every single box score metric (BPM, PER, WS, etc) which Jokic leads comfortably.

Giannis must have just broke the nba rule in efficiency, how comes he can have 3.8p more than Joker but with only 0.8 more fga? How many invaluable FGA should Jokic reduce?

[zzzyyxyyxzzz]

Doncic has played 1507 of his 2624 minutes this year with one or fewer other starters on the court.

MVP

[Bank Shot]

Luka fanboys are giving me big 2011 Rose fanboy vibes.

[Bob8]

Luka fanboys are giving me big 2011 Rose fanboy vibes.

Or just maybe Luka has pretty spectacular season too. Rose with 2011 season is not making top 10 this year.

[zero rings]

Per means he didn’t do it though right? We’re talking about actual production vs would have, could have, should have stats. Being available for your team is a huge part of the MVP award. So if Jokic COULD have gotten better numbers by playing 36 min a night, then why didn’t he? The fact is he didn’t play 36 min a night and therefore his stats are not as good as Luka’s.

Luka doesn’t have better stats. He’s scoring 7.3 more ppg on 5.6 more FGA and 3.1 more FTA. All that extra production is coming on well below average efficiency, meaning it isn’t valuable and is easily replaced. This is reflected in every single box score metric (BPM, PER, WS, etc) which Jokic leads comfortably.

Below average efficiency = 3rd most efficient Pg in the league.

Easily replaced? Only 3 non shooting C and Exum have better efficiency. Exum shooting only wide open 3s. I don't exactly understand, who's easily replacing those points.

Your whole argument for Luka seems to be his 7 ppg advantage over Jokic. The problem is, Luka takes over 5 extra shots and 3 extra free throws to get those extra 7 points. That’s a lot of possessions used for just 7 points, to the point where it isn’t actually valuable. You can give those extra possessions to scrubs like THJ and Reggie Jackson and they will, on average, get you more than 7 points.

[Archx]

Luka is a negative value player without the ball in his hands. He doesn't defend, he doesn't screen, he doesn't box out, he doesn't cut, he doesn't move without the ball. Either he's doing amazing, HOF level things with the ball in his hand or he's standing around doing absolutely nothing.

That's the reason Luka's impact numbers have never correlated to his box score stats the way they do for Jokic, Giannis, Embiid, LeBron, Curry, etc.

Facepalm... just facepalm. If used correctly Luka is an above average defender due to his size and his high basketball IQ, he's also top 10 in steals and first in RPG among all guards in the NBA. This season he also quite often sets screen for Kyrie for example. Also what do you mean he doesn't box out, are you serious? Luka has more defensive rebounds per game than the DPOY candidate Wembanyama.

The overwhelming majority of his rebounds are of the uncontested variety.

He has quick hands and he occasionally gambles which results in some steals, but teams target him all the time and it works. And for every one play on defense when he's engaged you can find five where he's not.

Yep Luka is so horrible Mavs have fallen off the cliff lately.

Nr1 rated defense in the last 10 games with a guy playing the most minutes and doesn't impact anything on the floor? Yikes.... how is that even possible?

Read on Twitter

[zero rings]

Facepalm... just facepalm. If used correctly Luka is an above average defender due to his size and his high basketball IQ, he's also top 10 in steals and first in RPG among all guards in the NBA. This season he also quite often sets screen for Kyrie for example. Also what do you mean he doesn't box out, are you serious? Luka has more defensive rebounds per game than the DPOY candidate Wembanyama.

The overwhelming majority of his rebounds are of the uncontested variety.

He has quick hands and he occasionally gambles which results in some steals, but teams target him all the time and it works. And for every one play on defense when he's engaged you can find five where he's not.

Yep Luka is so horrible Mavs have fallen off the cliff lately.

Nr1 rated defense in the last 10 games with a guy playing the most minutes and doesn't impact anything on the floor? Yikes.... how is that even possible?

Read on Twitter

Sounds like Luka has a pretty strong case for “MVP of the last 10 games.”

When’s the trophy ceremony?

[Petergrifindor]

Read on Twitter

[Archx]

The overwhelming majority of his rebounds are of the uncontested variety.

He has quick hands and he occasionally gambles which results in some steals, but teams target him all the time and it works. And for every one play on defense when he's engaged you can find five where he's not.

Yep Luka is so horrible Mavs have fallen off the cliff lately.

Nr1 rated defense in the last 10 games with a guy playing the most minutes and doesn't impact anything on the floor? Yikes.... how is that even possible?

Read on Twitter

Sounds like Luka has a pretty strong case for “MVP of the last 10 games.”

When’s the trophy ceremony?

Did i argue about the MVP? The other poster said he has no impact, that's why i responded.

[Cubbies2120]

How is it possible that this season SGA has attempted 0 heaves and only has 2 in his entire career? Heaves are shots taken from behind the half-court line and I'd like to think someone who prioritizes winning (i.e. Most Valuable Player) should attempt at least a few each season just to potentially add 3 points to his team's score. Otherwise, it looks kind of bad when someone who's already been exposed as being a stat padder (see: 30 pt streak) and who prior to Holmgrem's emegence was missing the playoffs is being viewed as a top MVP candidate.

This season, here's the output of heaves which are to the detriment of the player's individual stats but (potentially) a benefit to his team:
Jokic 7 in 77 games
Doncic 5 in 70 games
Embiid 2 in 38 games
SGA 0 in 73 games

[losmi]

Jokic's case:

1. Statistically best player this season.
2. First seed, while playing with a supporting cast that has no all stars, no all defense, no any accolades, no depth, no consistent players.
3. Best player in the world (reigning FMVP).
4. On pace to play 79 games.

This is a textbook example of an NBA MVP.

Sorry Luka fans. He's having an amazing MVP-worthy season, but no hypotheticals like what would have happened if his team wasn't injured, or arbitrary ppg streaks, or things like "first in rpg among guards" cannot overcome Jokic's case. Better luck next season.

[Bob8]

Luka doesn’t have better stats. He’s scoring 7.3 more ppg on 5.6 more FGA and 3.1 more FTA. All that extra production is coming on well below average efficiency, meaning it isn’t valuable and is easily replaced. This is reflected in every single box score metric (BPM, PER, WS, etc) which Jokic leads comfortably.

Below average efficiency = 3rd most efficient Pg in the league.

Easily replaced? Only 3 non shooting C and Exum have better efficiency. Exum shooting only wide open 3s. I don't exactly understand, who's easily replacing those points.

Your whole argument for Luka seems to be his 7 ppg advantage over Jokic. The problem is, Luka takes over 5 extra shots and 3 extra free throws to get those extra 7 points. That’s a lot of possessions used for just 7 points, to the point where it isn’t actually valuable. You can give those extra possessions to scrubs like THJ and Reggie Jackson and they will, on average, get you more than 7 points.

You're telling me that giving Luka's shots, who are mostly unassisted, to someone, who's shooting a lot worse, will give you better results? Sounds logical.

I have another proposition, what if Denver trade for Gafford, who's far more efficient player than Jokic, if he takes all Jokic's shots, Denver will be unbeatable. Jokic passer and Gafford scorer, they might win all games.

[Mr B]

Jokic's case:

1. Statistically best player this season.
2. First seed, while playing with a supporting cast that has no all stars, no all defense, no any accolades, no depth, no consistent players.
3. Best player in the world (reigning FMVP).
4. On pace to play 79 games.

This is a textbook example of an NBA MVP.

Sorry Luka fans. He's having an amazing MVP-worthy season, but no hypotheticals like what would have happened if his team wasn't injured, or arbitrary ppg streaks, or things like "first in rpg among guards" cannot overcome Jokic's case. Better luck next season.

If you’re going to make a case for Jokic at least be accurate . Luka averages more points and assists than Jokic. You can say Jokic’s per whatever are better but I’m talking about actual production, not “what if” stats.

1. Luka has better stats
2. Jokic won the award a couple of years ago as a 6th seed. Does that mean he has to go e it back since he wasn’t the 1 seed that year?
3. If you ask almost any Euro League fan who they would prefer Jokic or Luka and everyone (except Vlade) will pick Luka. Not that this has anything to do with the NBA MVP.
4. Both players have met the requirement of games played to qualify for the MVP award.

[Mr B]

If Luka played for Denver he would be the runaway winner. If Jokic played for the Mavs he likely isn’t even in the MVP conversation.

[famicommander]

If Luka played for Denver he would be the runaway winner. If Jokic played for the Mavs he likely isn’t even in the MVP conversation.

If Luka played for Denver instead of Jokic, DeAndre Jordan would be his starting center and Reggie Jackson would be his backup.

They'd miss the playoffs. Meanwhile, Jokic with Kyrie would be a title threat.