NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2023-24 (Part 5: So who's winning MVP? )

[losmi]

Jokic's case:

1. Statistically best player this season.
2. First seed, while playing with a supporting cast that has no all stars, no all defense, no any accolades, no depth, no consistent players.
3. Best player in the world (reigning FMVP).
4. On pace to play 79 games.

This is a textbook example of an NBA MVP.

Sorry Luka fans. He's having an amazing MVP-worthy season, but no hypotheticals like what would have happened if his team wasn't injured, or arbitrary ppg streaks, or things like "first in rpg among guards" cannot overcome Jokic's case. Better luck next season.

If you’re going to make a case for Jokic at least be accurate . Luka averages more points and assists than Jokic. You can say Jokic’s per whatever are better but I’m talking about actual production, not “what if” stats.

1. Luka has better stats
2. Jokic won the award a couple of years ago as a 6th seed. Does that mean he has to go e it back since he wasn’t the 1 seed that year?
3. If you ask almost any Euro League fan who they would prefer Jokic or Luka and everyone (except Vlade) will pick Luka. Not that this has anything to do with the NBA MVP.
4. Both players have met the requirement of games played to qualify for the MVP award.

1. Jokic leads in nearly all widely cited catch-all and impact metrics. Ppg and apg aren't the only statistically significant factors.
2. Why does 2022 matter for the 2024 MVP? Seeding is a factor, but not the only one. It was negative for Jokic in 2022, positive in 2024.
3. ?? Lol
4. More games, more value.

[Archx]

You guys can stop arguing, they just dropped Doncic 1 spot back again in MVP ladder. I'm actually shocked he didn't fall back to 6th spot like he usually does lol...

Kenny on TNT said he has Doncic in his 2nd ALL NBA lineup and Shaq's pick for MVP is SGA.

I'm actually happy Jokic will win it just so that he can stick it up to ESPN, TNT, etc...

Read on Twitter

[Sgt Major]

If Luka played for Denver he would be the runaway winner. If Jokic played for the Mavs he likely isn’t even in the MVP conversation.

Yeah no. Every single year we're hearing this same argument, just with someone else instead of Dončić in the mix.

Jokić is unmatched and absolutely the best, that's about it.

[Mr B]

Jokic's case:

1. Statistically best player this season.
2. First seed, while playing with a supporting cast that has no all stars, no all defense, no any accolades, no depth, no consistent players.
3. Best player in the world (reigning FMVP).
4. On pace to play 79 games.

This is a textbook example of an NBA MVP.

Sorry Luka fans. He's having an amazing MVP-worthy season, but no hypotheticals like what would have happened if his team wasn't injured, or arbitrary ppg streaks, or things like "first in rpg among guards" cannot overcome Jokic's case. Better luck next season.

If you’re going to make a case for Jokic at least be accurate . Luka averages more points and assists than Jokic. You can say Jokic’s per whatever are better but I’m talking about actual production, not “what if” stats.

1. Luka has better stats
2. Jokic won the award a couple of years ago as a 6th seed. Does that mean he has to go e it back since he wasn’t the 1 seed that year?
3. If you ask almost any Euro League fan who they would prefer Jokic or Luka and everyone (except Vlade) will pick Luka. Not that this has anything to do with the NBA MVP.
4. Both players have met the requirement of games played to qualify for the MVP award.

1. Jokic leads in nearly all widely cited catch-all and impact metrics. Ppg and apg aren't the only statistically significant factors.
2. Why does 2022 matter for the 2024 MVP? Seeding is a factor, but not the only one. It was negative for Jokic in 2022, positive in 2024.
3. ?? Lol
4. More games, more value.

Hey you brought up accolades from a whole other league, at least I stuck to the NBA. Besides Jokic winning it as a 6th seed sets precedence. If Jokic can win it as a 6th seed (2 years ago) then no reason Luka can’t win it as a 5th seed, especially when he’s leading in stats.

[Mr B]

You guys can stop arguing, they just dropped Doncic 1 spot back again in MVP ladder. I'm actually shocked he didn't fall back to 6th spot like he usually does lol...

Kenny on TNT said he has Doncic in his 2nd ALL NBA lineup and Shaq's pick for MVP is SGA.

I'm actually happy Jokic will win it just so that he can stick it up to ESPN, TNT, etc...

Read on Twitter

Chris Broussard (who actually has an MVP vote) picks Luka as his MVP.

[ChuckChilly]

Part of me thinks Shai should win it, but Jokic has pretty much been the only thing consistent with the Nuggets this year.

[Special_Puppy]

If you’re going to make a case for Jokic at least be accurate . Luka averages more points and assists than Jokic. You can say Jokic’s per whatever are better but I’m talking about actual production, not “what if” stats.

1. Luka has better stats
2. Jokic won the award a couple of years ago as a 6th seed. Does that mean he has to go e it back since he wasn’t the 1 seed that year?
3. If you ask almost any Euro League fan who they would prefer Jokic or Luka and everyone (except Vlade) will pick Luka. Not that this has anything to do with the NBA MVP.
4. Both players have met the requirement of games played to qualify for the MVP award.

1. Jokic leads in nearly all widely cited catch-all and impact metrics. Ppg and apg aren't the only statistically significant factors.
2. Why does 2022 matter for the 2024 MVP? Seeding is a factor, but not the only one. It was negative for Jokic in 2022, positive in 2024.
3. ?? Lol
4. More games, more value.

Hey you brought up accolades from a whole other league, at least I stuck to the NBA. Besides Jokic winning it as a 6th seed sets precedence. If Jokic can win it as a 6th seed (2 years ago) then no reason Luka can’t win it as a 5th seed, especially when he’s leading in stats.

There’s definitely no reason he can’t win it as the 5th seed with 50+ wins. It’s just that he might not because there’s another candidate who’s had arguably a better individual season AND his team might be the one seed.

[famicommander]

If you’re going to make a case for Jokic at least be accurate . Luka averages more points and assists than Jokic. You can say Jokic’s per whatever are better but I’m talking about actual production, not “what if” stats.

1. Luka has better stats
2. Jokic won the award a couple of years ago as a 6th seed. Does that mean he has to go e it back since he wasn’t the 1 seed that year?
3. If you ask almost any Euro League fan who they would prefer Jokic or Luka and everyone (except Vlade) will pick Luka. Not that this has anything to do with the NBA MVP.
4. Both players have met the requirement of games played to qualify for the MVP award.

1. Jokic leads in nearly all widely cited catch-all and impact metrics. Ppg and apg aren't the only statistically significant factors.
2. Why does 2022 matter for the 2024 MVP? Seeding is a factor, but not the only one. It was negative for Jokic in 2022, positive in 2024.
3. ?? Lol
4. More games, more value.

Hey you brought up accolades from a whole other league, at least I stuck to the NBA. Besides Jokic winning it as a 6th seed sets precedence. If Jokic can win it as a 6th seed (2 years ago) then no reason Luka can’t win it as a 5th seed, especially when he’s leading in stats.

When Jokic won it from the 6th seed he had 9 dudes on his team that were out of the NBA less than two years later and his two best other guys out for the year (well, technically Porter played 9 games). Bryn Forbes, Will Barton, DeMarcus Cousins, Davon Reed, Markus Howard, Facundo Campazzo, Austin Rivers, Petr Cornelie, JaMychal Green? Jeff Green in the starting lineup? Come on man. That's a G-League squad with Joker and Gordon.

He also shattered the all time NBA records for PER and BPM that season.

Jokic is, once again, by far the best statistical player in the NBA this year.

[losmi]

If you’re going to make a case for Jokic at least be accurate . Luka averages more points and assists than Jokic. You can say Jokic’s per whatever are better but I’m talking about actual production, not “what if” stats.

1. Luka has better stats
2. Jokic won the award a couple of years ago as a 6th seed. Does that mean he has to go e it back since he wasn’t the 1 seed that year?
3. If you ask almost any Euro League fan who they would prefer Jokic or Luka and everyone (except Vlade) will pick Luka. Not that this has anything to do with the NBA MVP.
4. Both players have met the requirement of games played to qualify for the MVP award.

1. Jokic leads in nearly all widely cited catch-all and impact metrics. Ppg and apg aren't the only statistically significant factors.
2. Why does 2022 matter for the 2024 MVP? Seeding is a factor, but not the only one. It was negative for Jokic in 2022, positive in 2024.
3. ?? Lol
4. More games, more value.

Hey you brought up accolades from a whole other league, at least I stuck to the NBA. Besides Jokic winning it as a 6th seed sets precedence. If Jokic can win it as a 6th seed (2 years ago) then no reason Luka can’t win it as a 5th seed, especially when he’s leading in stats.

?? What other league and accolades I brought up?

Yes, Luka could win as a 5th seed but he doesn't lead in stats.

[Cubbies2120]

This ^

Luka's lucky that they put the OFFICIAL # of games missed to be 17 to be eligible for awards.

Historical precedent has been, over the last 45 years, if you miss double digit games, you don't win MVP (only 1 exception to this rule, 2001 Allen Iverson). That's it. 45 years, only one player has won MVP missing 10+ games. Luka has already missed 10 this year, the fact that he's even somewhat in the conversation is the product of the 'Embiid rule'

Embiid won it last year while missing 16 games.

Damn you and your facts!

NBA in April 2023: "17 missed games is the maximum" - For the first time, the NBA finally comes out and puts a minimum games played

MVP voting happened almost a month after that, so the NBA let voters know "This is the threshold", rather than the 10 games that voters have historically self-implemented. There's another fact for you!!

[Cubbies2120]

If Jokic can win it as a 6th seed (2 years ago) then no reason Luka can’t win it as a 5th seed, especially when he’s leading in stats.

Only if you 100% ignore context that Jokic had 2 max contract players sitting in suits for the entire year [Well, MPJ played 10% of the season...but Murray missed the entire season].

Missing your #2 and #3 players the entire year and finishing 6th >>> Missing your #2 player for 22 games.

If Luka was missing Kyrie the entire season, and whoever you consider your #3 best player for 90% of the season, and STILL managed to finish 5th, the award is his.

But given that Kyrie played 2/3 of the season and Luka himself has called him batman...and you're finishing 5th while Jokic is his usual dominant self, finishing #1 in the conference....yeah nah...and the odds reflect that.

Better luck next year Luka! Come into the season in shape, dominate the regular season and MVP will be all yours

[Cubbies2120]

If Luka played for Denver he would be the runaway winner. If Jokic played for the Mavs he likely isn’t even in the MVP conversation.

If Jokic played for Mavs, they're not finishing 5th [And damn sure not missing the playoffs like the failure Luka led them to last year]

[zero rings]

If Luka played for Denver he would be the runaway winner. If Jokic played for the Mavs he likely isn’t even in the MVP conversation.

Denver is absolutely terrible without Jokic on the floor, even with Murray leading the bench. They are basically the worst offensive team in the league without him, and the best with him. And he improves their defense too, unlike Luka.

Give him a co star like Kyrie (26 ppg on 50/40/90!) and they would be running away with the best record. Put Luka on the Nuggets and they would be fighting to stay out of the play-in.

[Cubbies2120]

Looking at it objectively it's almost impossible not to give Luka the MVP

1st PPG by a huge margin
1st in total points
2nd APG
2nd in total assists
2nd in potential asists
1st among all guards in RPG
1st among all guard in total rebounds
top 10 defensive RPG
top 10 in steals per game
1st in 45 points games
1st in 40 points games
1st in 35 points games
1st in +30 points triple doubles
the first ever 33 ppg / 9 asp / 9 rpg season in the history of the NBA
record for most consecutive 30 point triple-doubles ever in the history of the NBA
most PPG + RPG + APG in the last 50 years
a historical 73 point game, 4th highest ever in the history of the NBA
broke the Mavs franchise record for a single season points scored, a record which stood for 40 years
Most Player of the Month awards
Most Player of the Week awards

And he did all while his team had the worst luck with injuries of all other MVP candidates' teams by far. Basically the only argument for Jokic over Luka I can see is advanced stats but we all know that a center will always have better advanced stats than a PG, it's just how basketball works.

I don’t get the argument that advanced stats favor big men. Curry and Harden were the two advanced stats darlings from 2015 to 2020

You play closer to the basket so obviously your fg% and efficiency will be better. It’s not hard to figure out.

Sounds like big men are just inherently more valuable then, eh? If you've got two similarly impactful players, but one is 4 inches taller and much stronger...more efficient because he can play closer to the basket...

[Bob8]

If Jokic can win it as a 6th seed (2 years ago) then no reason Luka can’t win it as a 5th seed, especially when he’s leading in stats.

Only if you 100% ignore context that Jokic had 2 max contract players sitting in suits for the entire year [Well, MPJ played 10% of the season...but Murray missed the entire season].

Missing your #2 and #3 players the entire year and finishing 6th >>> Missing your #2 player for 22 games.

If Luka was missing Kyrie the entire season, and whoever you consider your #3 best player for 90% of the season, and STILL managed to finish 5th, the award is his.

But given that Kyrie played 2/3 of the season and Luka himself has called him batman...and you're finishing 5th while Jokic is his usual dominant self, finishing #1 in the conference....yeah nah...and the odds reflect that.

Better luck next year Luka! Come into the season in shape, dominate the regular season and MVP will be all yours

Do you believe that strength of the West is comparable between 2022 and 2024? I doubt that 22 Nuggets would have been better than 10th in 24.

I hope Mavs beat Nuggets in round 2 and win the title consequently. You can be sure that Mavs fans and Luka couldn't care less about MVP in that case.

[zero rings]

If Jokic can win it as a 6th seed (2 years ago) then no reason Luka can’t win it as a 5th seed, especially when he’s leading in stats.

Only if you 100% ignore context that Jokic had 2 max contract players sitting in suits for the entire year [Well, MPJ played 10% of the season...but Murray missed the entire season].

Missing your #2 and #3 players the entire year and finishing 6th >>> Missing your #2 player for 22 games.

If Luka was missing Kyrie the entire season, and whoever you consider your #3 best player for 90% of the season, and STILL managed to finish 5th, the award is his.

But given that Kyrie played 2/3 of the season and Luka himself has called him batman...and you're finishing 5th while Jokic is his usual dominant self, finishing #1 in the conference....yeah nah...and the odds reflect that.

Better luck next year Luka! Come into the season in shape, dominate the regular season and MVP will be all yours

Do you believe that strength of the West is comparable between 2022 and 2024? I doubt that 22 Nuggets would have been better than 10th in 24.

I hope Mavs beat Nuggets in round 2 and win the title consequently. You can be sure that Mavs fans and Luka couldn't care less about MVP in that case.

This whole comparison is stupid because Luka’s current supporting cast is way, way better than that 2022 Nuggets team.

Will freaking Barton was the second leading scorer on that team. Dude got cut from the Wizards the very next year, and was just cut from some team in the Russian league.

Pretending like Luka is playing under similar circumstances is beyond laughable.

[Archx]

If Jokic can win it as a 6th seed (2 years ago) then no reason Luka can’t win it as a 5th seed, especially when he’s leading in stats.

If Luka was missing Kyrie the entire season, and whoever you consider your #3 best player for 90% of the season, and STILL managed to finish 5th, the award is his.

Mavs were banged up entire year until trade deadline, you can clearly see it here. And Luka had 2 months averaging almost a 37ppg triple double.

Read on Twitter

Better luck next year Luka! Come into the season in shape, dominate the regular season and MVP will be all yours

Well, he did dominate the regular season? It's just that Jokic had a strong season as well

If Luka played for Denver he would be the runaway winner. If Jokic played for the Mavs he likely isn’t even in the MVP conversation.

If Jokic played for Mavs, they're not finishing 5th [And damn sure not missing the playoffs like the failure Luka led them to last year]

I'll just copy what i wrote to the other guy who was trolling. I hope you're not trolling because you're usually a good poster and i enjoy reading your posts. But what you said has to be looked at with a proper context.

After the Kyrie trade Mavs starting unit was Powell, Bullock, THJ, Luka, Kyrie ( Though they played only limited games together because they were both injured)

Bench rotation was Bertans, Wood, Maxi, Green, Hardy, McGee. Then rotational players who also saw minutes were Kief, Pinson, J.Holiday, Wright IV.

Year later, Bullock hardly plays with Rockets, Wood was barely signed by any team, Powell is at the end of the bench, while others are either out of the league or have no significant roles anymore (besides Maxi, Green and THJ).

Before Irving trade and all the injuries, Mavs were still 1 game away from the 4th spot. Then everything went downhill.

[Cubbies2120]

Only if you 100% ignore context that Jokic had 2 max contract players sitting in suits for the entire year [Well, MPJ played 10% of the season...but Murray missed the entire season].

Missing your #2 and #3 players the entire year and finishing 6th >>> Missing your #2 player for 22 games.

If Luka was missing Kyrie the entire season, and whoever you consider your #3 best player for 90% of the season, and STILL managed to finish 5th, the award is his.

But given that Kyrie played 2/3 of the season and Luka himself has called him batman...and you're finishing 5th while Jokic is his usual dominant self, finishing #1 in the conference....yeah nah...and the odds reflect that.

Better luck next year Luka! Come into the season in shape, dominate the regular season and MVP will be all yours

Do you believe that strength of the West is comparable between 2022 and 2024? I doubt that 22 Nuggets would have been better than 10th in 24.

I hope Mavs beat Nuggets in round 2 and win the title consequently. You can be sure that Mavs fans and Luka couldn't care less about MVP in that case.

This whole comparison is stupid because Luka’s current supporting cast is way, way better than that 2022 Nuggets team.

Will freaking Barton was the second leading scorer on that team. Dude got cut from the Wizards the very next year, and was just cut from some team in the Russian league.

Pretending like Luka is playing under similar circumstances is beyond laughable.

Yeah...

Here's a list of players who played 1000+ minutes for the Nuggets in 2022...
Still Valuable: Aaron Gordon
Bench Warmers: Morris, Green
Out of League: Barton, Rivers, Campazzo

[Bob8]

Only if you 100% ignore context that Jokic had 2 max contract players sitting in suits for the entire year [Well, MPJ played 10% of the season...but Murray missed the entire season].

Missing your #2 and #3 players the entire year and finishing 6th >>> Missing your #2 player for 22 games.

If Luka was missing Kyrie the entire season, and whoever you consider your #3 best player for 90% of the season, and STILL managed to finish 5th, the award is his.

But given that Kyrie played 2/3 of the season and Luka himself has called him batman...and you're finishing 5th while Jokic is his usual dominant self, finishing #1 in the conference....yeah nah...and the odds reflect that.

Better luck next year Luka! Come into the season in shape, dominate the regular season and MVP will be all yours

Do you believe that strength of the West is comparable between 2022 and 2024? I doubt that 22 Nuggets would have been better than 10th in 24.

I hope Mavs beat Nuggets in round 2 and win the title consequently. You can be sure that Mavs fans and Luka couldn't care less about MVP in that case.

This whole comparison is stupid because Luka’s current supporting cast is way, way better than that 2022 Nuggets team.

Will freaking Barton was the second leading scorer on that team. Dude got cut from the Wizards the very next year, and was just cut from some team in the Russian league.

Pretending like Luka is playing under similar circumstances is beyond laughable.

What 32 different starting lineups tells you? Maybe Kyrie was not the only one missing many games?

Mavs' most used lineup 176 minutes, Denver's 913 minutes. Do you believe Jokic wins MVP this year, if he was playing only 176 minutes with starting unit?

Are you sure it was Barton?

[LeBronSpaghetti]

I think Jokic and Luka are both fine choices.

The issue I have is that in back to back years now, once it appears that Jokic will win, an all out assault on Jokic ensues from everyone from Gilbert Arenas to Kevin Hart. The you have the usual haters who are out in full form (Nick Wright, Keyshawn Johnson, Shaq, Skip, Stephen A, Kendrick Perkins).

This is why I said a few pages ago that I legitimately think Luka will win. People keep citing that poll that happened a week or so ago showing Jokic as the far and away favorite but I don’t think that matters. Jokic was the far and away favorite late last season too until the media decided they didn’t want him to win. I think Luka will win because it will be an “anti-Jokic” vote as opposed to a pro Luka vote. But again like I said at first, I think either Jokic or Luka are deserving. But once again the media discussion around the MVP has gotten ugly and once again it’s biased against Jokic. Why is it always biased in this direction? Makes you wonder