NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2023-24 (Part 5: So who's winning MVP? )

[hagredionis]

To realize just how unlucky with the injuries the Mavs were this season you just have to compare the minutes played by 2 most used lineups by both teams:

Jokic played 901 minutes with Murray, Caldwell-Pope, Porter, Gordon
Jokic played 443 minutes with R.Jackson, Caldwell-Pope, Porter, Gordon

Luka only played 174 minutes with Irving, D.Jones, PJ, Gafford
Luka only played 98 minutes with Irving, D.Jones, G.Williams, Lively

To be honest I was shocked how huge he difference is. Those numbers should almost by itself tip the balance of the MVP race in Luka's favor.

[MoneyTalks41890]

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Luka is such a horrible defender and low impact guy, that Mavs only have the 2nd best record since FEB 1st behind the Celtics. If that scrub could play and defense and have any positive impact on offense, Mavs would be nr1.

[Bob8]

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Luka is such a horrible defender and low impact guy, that Mavs only have the 2nd best record since FEB 1st behind the Celtics. If that scrub could play and defense and have any positive impact on offense, Mavs would be nr1.

It's futile, we will just have to see what happens in playoffs.

[Gatorade Sax]

To realize just how unlucky with the injuries the Mavs were this season you just have to compare the minutes played by 2 most used lineups by both teams:

Jokic played 901 minutes with Murray, Caldwell-Pope, Porter, Gordon
Jokic played 443 minutes with R.Jackson, Caldwell-Pope, Porter, Gordon

Luka only played 174 minutes with Irving, D.Jones, PJ, Gafford
Luka only played 98 minutes with Irving, D.Jones, G.Williams, Lively

To be honest I was shocked how huge he difference is. Those numbers should almost by itself tip the balance of the MVP race in Luka's favor.

I personally think Jokic deserves it this year, but that is a legitimately crazy stat.

[QPR]

I'll never understand why Jokic's supporting cast gets used an an argument against him when he elevates them so much. If anything it's an argument for him.

There's always a point where fans of a particular player realise he's not winning and melt down a bit, which is happening now.

[iggymcfrack]

You might read this thread better, even today few writers are talking about Jokic having GOAT 4 years.

What about Barkley winning it? Or numerous others. If vote went only by advanced stats, players like MJ and LeBron would have had double numbers of MVPs.

you're just repeating urself now and not addressing the points brought up at all

so one last time:

1.) I'm not an advanced stats guys and it shouldn't be the end all be all for MVP consideration. over countless posts itt (not just this season) I have never argued that Jokic should win an MVP solely because of "advanced stats" and neither do actual voters, otherwise Luka wouldn't be in 2nd place rn

2.) if advanced stats were the main criteria, MJ and LBJ would have double MVPS - I already agreed with you on that. that statement is factually true

but I asked u a follow up question - do two wrongs make a right?

ur argument is basically this:
since MJ, LBJ (and others) were robbed of their double MVPs, they only have the amount they have. thus, if we start awarding correctly now and hand out MVP's to Jokic every season he deserves it, dude might end up with 8 MVPs

since the voters of the past screwed us and robbed MJ and LBJ of their MVP's, we now have to screw Jokic cuz otherwise he'd have more MVPs then them, which shouldn't happen unless he's better than them (and he's not)

so that's ur argument basically, that we need to do a wrong now, to fix the wrong that's been done in the past but it just doesn't work that way

You used term the most disgraceful MVP vote. It clearly wasn't.

I doubt very much that Jokic deserves or will get 8 MVPs, unless he becomes real GOAT, which I doubt very much too. I'm all for having a bet about that with you.

Don't you think it would be funny, if he ends with far the most MVPs in the history and wins only few titles?

Hype about Jokic went too far, he has 1 title being 29 years old, not exactly something extraordinary.

Jordan won his first title at age 28. Would you say “hype went too far” about him in ‘92? LeBron won his first title at age 28. Would you say “hype went too far about him in ‘13? While that’s exactly where Jokic is in ‘24. One title and one of the favorites to win another after putting up all-time numbers. Exactly where the top 2 players of all-time were in their age 29 seasons.

[Mr B]

1. Jokic leads in nearly all widely cited catch-all and impact metrics. Ppg and apg aren't the only statistically significant factors.
2. Why does 2022 matter for the 2024 MVP? Seeding is a factor, but not the only one. It was negative for Jokic in 2022, positive in 2024.
3. ?? Lol
4. More games, more value.

Hey you brought up accolades from a whole other league, at least I stuck to the NBA. Besides Jokic winning it as a 6th seed sets precedence. If Jokic can win it as a 6th seed (2 years ago) then no reason Luka can’t win it as a 5th seed, especially when he’s leading in stats.

When Jokic won it from the 6th seed he had 9 dudes on his team that were out of the NBA less than two years later and his two best other guys out for the year (well, technically Porter played 9 games). Bryn Forbes, Will Barton, DeMarcus Cousins, Davon Reed, Markus Howard, Facundo Campazzo, Austin Rivers, Petr Cornelie, JaMychal Green? Jeff Green in the starting lineup? Come on man. That's a G-League squad with Joker and Gordon.

He also shattered the all time NBA records for PER and BPM that season.

Jokic is, once again, by far the best statistical player in the NBA this year.

How many of Luka’s teammates made the All Star game this year?

[Mr B]

If Luka played for Denver he would be the runaway winner. If Jokic played for the Mavs he likely isn’t even in the MVP conversation.

Denver is absolutely terrible without Jokic on the floor, even with Murray leading the bench. They are basically the worst offensive team in the league without him, and the best with him. And he improves their defense too, unlike Luka.

Give him a co star like Kyrie (26 ppg on 50/40/90!) and they would be running away with the best record. Put Luka on the Nuggets and they would be fighting to stay out of the play-in.

Have you forgot about Jamal Murray? How about MPJ? Are you saying they both suck and provide Jokic with no help?

[Mr B]

Only if you 100% ignore context that Jokic had 2 max contract players sitting in suits for the entire year [Well, MPJ played 10% of the season...but Murray missed the entire season].

Missing your #2 and #3 players the entire year and finishing 6th >>> Missing your #2 player for 22 games.

If Luka was missing Kyrie the entire season, and whoever you consider your #3 best player for 90% of the season, and STILL managed to finish 5th, the award is his.

But given that Kyrie played 2/3 of the season and Luka himself has called him batman...and you're finishing 5th while Jokic is his usual dominant self, finishing #1 in the conference....yeah nah...and the odds reflect that.

Better luck next year Luka! Come into the season in shape, dominate the regular season and MVP will be all yours

Do you believe that strength of the West is comparable between 2022 and 2024? I doubt that 22 Nuggets would have been better than 10th in 24.

I hope Mavs beat Nuggets in round 2 and win the title consequently. You can be sure that Mavs fans and Luka couldn't care less about MVP in that case.

This whole comparison is stupid because Luka’s current supporting cast is way, way better than that 2022 Nuggets team.

Will freaking Barton was the second leading scorer on that team. Dude got cut from the Wizards the very next year, and was just cut from some team in the Russian league.

Pretending like Luka is playing under similar circumstances is beyond laughable.

Pretending that Jokic is playing with a bunch of G-Leaguers is equally asinine.

[Exp0sed]

You're deliberate missing my point, around 8 MVPs is reserved for the GOAT, not someone around 10th position.

Hater? I said many times that he's the best player in last years. But he's long way away of being top 10, he needs at least 2 more rings.

I was advocating for Luka being better than SGA not Jokic. We have here people, who have numerous players in front of him, seeing Luka as non impactful player. Saying that Luka deserves being second and not agreeing that Jokic is on GOAT trajectory is not exactly the same. And Luka didn't win anything for playing with bad/injured roster, Jokic did. I kinda doubt he will get another 1 like in 2022. So I don't understand why are you bringing Luka in this debate.

One thing is admitting that Jokic is the best player now, totally true. Saying that what he's doing in last 4 years is GOAT level is just laughable. He has advanced stats on that GOAT level, but he will need a lot more of winning to be even in conversation for top 10. You can win single MVP based on circumstances, but nobody cares with who you're playing, if you want to win the most MVPs in the history.

first of all, I wrote "you sound like a run-of-the-mill Jokic hater" because I know u aren't. that's why I wrote that you sound like and not "are" a hater

as for the bolded part, that's exactly what i'm saying - having more MVP's does not make a player better than a player with less.
otherwise why bother ranking the top 20, let's just arrange them in order of MVP's

MVP is an award that's awarded every season for it's particular and unique circumstances
let's suppose Magic, Bird, Kareem, LBJ, MJ, Shaq, Moses Malone, Duncan and Dr J are all playing in their primes for an entire decade together. gonna be hard for any of them to rack up MVPs, right?

there can only be one MVP winner each season and circumstances vary - not every MVP is equal..
if Dr J wins 4/10 MVPs in my hypotethical decade - they would each mean alot more than say..Wilt and Russel alternating between the two of them

so you see, it doesn't work like that, Jokic winning 3,5,6 or 8 does not mean he's the GOAT even if the GOAT failed to achieve that, in their respective eras and seasons

[AleksandarN]

If Luka played for Denver he would be the runaway winner. If Jokic played for the Mavs he likely isn’t even in the MVP conversation.

Denver is absolutely terrible without Jokic on the floor, even with Murray leading the bench. They are basically the worst offensive team in the league without him, and the best with him. And he improves their defense too, unlike Luka.

Give him a co star like Kyrie (26 ppg on 50/40/90!) and they would be running away with the best record. Put Luka on the Nuggets and they would be fighting to stay out of the play-in.

Have you forgot about Jamal Murray? How about MPJ? Are you saying they both suck and provide Jokic with no help?

Who is playing better Kyrie or Murray? Who has more skills? Who is better in the pick and roll? Who is the better finisher?

[Special_Puppy]

Yeah the MVP race might still be live lol

[Jurassic_Park]

Jokic just lost the mvp. Congrats Luka

[QPR]

Jokic just lost the mvp. Congrats Luka

Lol no he didn't

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

There is a voting bias in favor of guys who have not won MVP before. Jokic is the best player but having won it before counts against him.

[dygaction]

Jokic just lost the mvp. Congrats Luka

he just ducked a potential 2nd round matchup, lol

[GeorgeSears]

There is a voting bias in favor of guys who have not won MVP before. Jokic is the best player but having won it before counts against him.

Jokic was -5000 a day ago. It's over.

[HotRocks34]

Jokic just lost the mvp. Congrats Luka

* Luka sat out; Mavs crushed
* SGA 7/21 for 23 points (I think)

OKC moves to #1, which helps SGA, but if Jokic was going to have a tough outcome tonight was a good time to have it.

The biggest result of the night might be Denver's changed playoff path.

[QPR]

Interesting to see how seriously the Mavs take the OKC match-up, as it will only be live for the Thunder.