Prime LeBron James is the most resilient scorer in NBA History

[Lebronnygoat]

Yeah, no...

Alright, let's break it down for you.

LeBron: PPG-30.1 rTS- +7.7
Jordan: PPG-34.3 rTS- +3.8

The Big thing we are missing with this data is TSA, but when I try to look for TSA, I think OP has his numbers wrong.

OP, why do you not include every series for LeBron?

His PP100 from 2009-2018 is 37.9, which puts him at 28.4 PP75.

I’m curious as to how your numbers aren’t different than mine. PBP stats shows me the per 100 stats and I multiply them by .75 to get per 75. Then I look at the league average ORTG vs those elite defenses, divided it by 2023 league ORTG average, get the result and multiply it by the per 75 numbers. This is to truly see how well they compared vs their level of elite defenses, such as I do with TS%. Shooting 50%TS vs the Spurs in 1999 is considered below league average (51.1) when looking at the total league average of TS%. Though, when you adjust the TS% to league average TS% VS THE SPURS, it’s actually much more impressive. The league average TS% vs SAS is 46.4. So 50.0-46.4=3.6. That’s +3.6rTS. That’s good.

I made a edit to my reply, meant to add in I divide the league average ortg vs those elite defenses by 2023 league average ortg.

[Colbinii]

Yeah, no...

Alright, let's break it down for you.

LeBron: PPG-30.1 rTS- +7.7
Jordan: PPG-34.3 rTS- +3.8

The Big thing we are missing with this data is TSA, but when I try to look for TSA, I think OP has his numbers wrong.

OP, why do you not include every series for LeBron?

His PP100 from 2009-2018 is 37.9, which puts him at 28.4 PP75.

I’m curious as to how your numbers aren’t different than mine. PBP stats shows me the per 100 stats and I multiply them by .75 to get per 75. Then I look at the league average ORTG vs those elite defenses, get the result and multiply it by the per 75 numbers. This is to truly see how well they compared vs their level of elite defenses, such as I do with TS%. Shooting 50%TS vs the Spurs in 1999 is considered below league average (51.1) when looking at the total league average of TS%. Though, when you adjust the TS% to league average TS% VS THE SPURS, it’s actually much more impressive. The league average TS% vs SAS is 46.4. So 50.0-46.4=3.6. That’s +3.6rTS. That’s good.

I made a mistake, didn't realize this was just -3 or better defenses.

[Colbinii]

The gap in the volume is literally more than the gap in the efficiency lmao. I'm not saying Jordan is better but in terms of scoring, it's quite 50-50 and you can make a case for both as the better scorer. Plus you left out the regular season where I assume the gap increases.

The stats you shared quite literally confirm that there's no clear cut better scorer

4 efficiency points clears 4 volume points. Thats not even a debate, especially when the defensive competition is in LeBron’s favor by -1. Peak wise LeBron’s resilience clears too. 2014 and 2009 > Any Jordan. Regular season is closer. Though peak regular season goes to LeBron. While prime is comparable.

Does it? Show your work

Will say the more you lean towards efficiency, the stronger Kareem's GOAT scoring case becomes

This is purely hypothetical since I don't have the TSA for LeBron/Jordan over these periods, but I am just going to put hypothetical numbers [somewhat accurate].

LeBron: 30.1 PP75 on 20 FGA and 9 FTA [62.8 TS%]
Jordan: 34.3 PP75 on 25 FGA and 10 FTA [58.5 TS%]

This gives us the difference of ~4 TS%, which is what OP has.

In order for LeBron's team to make-up the 4.2 points, the team would need to score those points on 5 FGA and 1 FTA, which is a 38.6 TS% is needed from LeBron's teammate(s) in order to match Jordan's Volume + Efficiency.

[Lebronnygoat]

Jordan had the era with the better defenders, and how can you do not points per game? You don't want to because Lebron loses. All these advanced stats that try to paint Lebron as better are nonsense. Lebron is the all time scoring leader because of longevity, but Jordan was the better scorer. Especially considering Lebron has shot over 5000 more 3 pointers than Jordan and yet still is below him in ppg it's not even close.

Scoring titles
Jordan: 10
Lebron: 1

Okay let’s do this, name me the better defenders that were better than the defenders LeBron was matched up against and or played heavy help defense, go ahead, I’ll go first.

Bruce Bowen, Paul Pierce, Andre Iggy, Jimmy Butler, Kawhi, Kevin Garnett, Rasheed Wallace, Ben Wallace, Jason Kidd, Tim Duncan, Tony Allen, Tayshaun Prince, Kawhi Leanord, Taj Gibson, Luol Deng, Jokim Noah, Tyson Chandler, Manu Ginobli, Draymond green, Paul George, David West, Roy Hibbert, Serge Ibaka, Paul Milsap, DeMar, Jaylen Brown, Myles Turner, Avery Bradley, Marcus Smart…

Maybe I’m missing some

Let’s stop it. Along with the fact I showed the team defenses are rated much higher than Jordan’s.

[AEnigma]

I generally agree, but you cannot sneak Demar and Jaylen in there lol.

[Lebronnygoat]

Alright, let's break it down for you.

LeBron: PPG-30.1 rTS- +7.7
Jordan: PPG-34.3 rTS- +3.8

The Big thing we are missing with this data is TSA, but when I try to look for TSA, I think OP has his numbers wrong.

OP, why do you not include every series for LeBron?

His PP100 from 2009-2018 is 37.9, which puts him at 28.4 PP75.

I’m curious as to how your numbers aren’t different than mine. PBP stats shows me the per 100 stats and I multiply them by .75 to get per 75. Then I look at the league average ORTG vs those elite defenses, get the result and multiply it by the per 75 numbers. This is to truly see how well they compared vs their level of elite defenses, such as I do with TS%. Shooting 50%TS vs the Spurs in 1999 is considered below league average (51.1) when looking at the total league average of TS%. Though, when you adjust the TS% to league average TS% VS THE SPURS, it’s actually much more impressive. The league average TS% vs SAS is 46.4. So 50.0-46.4=3.6. That’s +3.6rTS. That’s good.

I made a mistake, didn't realize this was just -3 or better defenses.

I used to do -4, which actually is around the same thing iirc. But-3 encapsulates a more fair collection of teams imo. -5, -6, -7 all are LeBron’s. MJ has -2 by volume, LeBron has efficiency but it’s less than what’s shown in my post.

[ChipotleWest]

Jordan played in the era was there was a big 7 foot center that could play defense on most teams and you had to score over him, just naming players that Lebron matched up with on occasion and sometimes he scored on them sometimes he didn't doesn't mean anything. The rules also changed in favor of more scoring after Jordan everyone knows that. No hand checking etc...

The bad boy Pistons beat up Jordan physically and still couldn't stop him. There was no such threat to Lebron.

[Lebronnygoat]

I generally agree, but you cannot sneak Demar and Jaylen in there lol.

Demar seemed pretty good to me pre Chicago

[AEnigma]

He was not.

[Heej]

Jordan played in the era was there was a big 7 foot center that could play defense on most teams and you had to score over him, just naming players that Lebron matched up with on occasion and sometimes he scored on them sometimes he didn't doesn't mean anything. The rules also changed in favor of more scoring after Jordan everyone knows that. No hand checking etc...

The bad boy Pistons beat up Jordan physically and still couldn't stop him. There was no such threat to Lebron.

LeBron had to face that on his teams AND elite POA defenders. Bigs in the 90s couldn't flood the strong side of the floor either. The farthest they could pre-rotate was at the paint

Hand checking was legislated out of the league beginning in the 80s, and ironically the biggest beneficiary of handchecking calls was literally Jordan because he was allowed to hold on defense while others couldn't hold him . Meanwhile in the modern NBA players just armbar now instead of handcheck which is perfectly legal AND more effective against modern players who will turn handchecks into shooting fouls and literally force the refs to give the calls they once gave Jordan for free.

And y'all really gotta give it a rest with this Bad Boys stuff. They were Jordan's toughest comp because they were the most talented defensive team of their era with an elite defensive coach. Jordan was knocked to the floor maybe once every 2 games. We have the series' on hand. They tricked y'all into thinking all 10+ iconic hard Pistons fouls (over the course of multiple series') happened in every game multiple times a game. Give us a break Jordan was protected by the refs enough in their series, the Pistons weren't stupid enough to put players in foul trouble because Chuck Daly calculated it's +EV to spam wrestling moves during a playoff series

[Lebronnygoat]

Jordan played in the era was there was a big 7 foot center that could play defense on most teams and you had to score over him, just naming players that Lebron matched up with on occasion and sometimes he scored on them sometimes he didn't doesn't mean anything. The rules also changed in favor of more scoring after Jordan everyone knows that. No hand checking etc...

The bad boy Pistons beat up Jordan physically and still couldn't stop him. There was no such threat to Lebron.

LeBron translated and rose against Howard, Hibbert, Noah, KG, ect. He single handedly fouled Howard out in 09 and was giving him foul trouble. Gave him his 6th foul at the end of game 1 in the clutch ontop of an and one over him. LeBron is a much more dominant slasher, rim runner, and finisher than Jordan. Stop it.

[ChipotleWest]

I can name players too. Again like Lebron it doesn't mean MJ was always matched up with them.

In the 1990s, there were enforcers like Charles Oakley, Dale and Antonio Davis, Dennis Rodman, Patrick Ewing, Dikembe Mutombo, Anthony Mason and slightly lesser guys like PJ Brown, Otis Thorpe, etc. And of course there were legendary defenders like Hakeem Olajuwon, Gary Payton, David Robinson, Alonzo Mourning. Plenty of others but I'm not going to spend times combing through every team.

Lebron and and MJ were both great at finishing at the rim obviously Lebron has the advantage size wise.

[Lebronnygoat]

I can name players too. Again like Lebron it doesn't mean MJ was always matched up with them.

In the 1990s, there were enforcers like Charles Oakley, Dale and Antonio Davis, Dennis Rodman, Patrick Ewing, Dikembe Mutombo, Anthony Mason and slightly lesser guys like PJ Brown, Otis Thorpe, etc. And of course there were legendary defenders like Hakeem Olajuwon, Gary Payton, David Robinson, Alonzo Mourning. Plenty of others but I'm not going to spend times combing through every team.
Lebron and and MJ were both great at finishing at the rim obviously Lebron has the advantage size wise.

Otis Thorpe, Mutombo, the Davis’s, only played one series vs MJ. Hakeem didn’t meet MJ in the playoffs. Gary did. Drob didn’t. Ik I named a few with one series vs bron but your sample isn’t much or convincing on Jordan’s side

[ChipotleWest]

We're talking about entire careers and your strawman was naming a few players that were good defenders. I agree, it's not a good argument, for either side.

The point is there were plenty of good defenders in both eras, and plenty of bad defenders in both eras. Nobody really knows how much they scored on good ones vs. bad so it's not a good argument.

[AEnigma]

Jordan played Hakeem 23 times and averaged 30.8 on 53.8% efficiency. He played David Robinson 14 times and averaged 31.6 on 52.7% efficiency. Fine production but would not be exalting those samples.

[Lebronnygoat]

We're talking about entire careers and your strawman was naming a few players that were good defenders. I agree, it's not a good argument, for either side.

The point is there were plenty of good defenders in both eras, and plenty of bad defenders in both eras. Nobody really knows how much they scored on good ones vs. bad so it's not a good argument.

I named like 30 lol. Half ur players barely played Jordan and you named like 10. Funny thing is, prime MJ consistently drops vs those defenders you name too… difference between him and bron, plus bron plays better team defenses.

[Lebronnygoat]

Jordan played Hakeem 23 times and averaged 30.8 on 53.8% efficiency. He played David Robinson 14 times and averaged 31.6 on 52.7% efficiency. Fine production but would not be exalting those samples.

LOL. Those are definitely drops.

[ChipotleWest]

We're talking about entire careers and your strawman was naming a few players that were good defenders. I agree, it's not a good argument, for either side.

The point is there were plenty of good defenders in both eras, and plenty of bad defenders in both eras. Nobody really knows how much they scored on good ones vs. bad so it's not a good argument.

I named like 30 lol. Half ur players barely played Jordan and you named like 10. Funny thing is, prime MJ consistently drops vs those defenders you name too… difference between him and bron, plus bron plays better team defenses.

Ok break down for me each series and how many times Lebron scored on the good defender vs. the bad one, you can't.

Your argument doesn't work. It doesn't prove anything.

Just because a good defender is on a team doesn't mean he always scored on that defender. If that defender is on the bench and he scored against a bad bench player is that the same thing? No, so what you're trying to do doesn't work for either Lebron or Jordan.

Lebron fans always want to make it complicated, because the simple answer is Jordan was the better scorer.

[Lebronnygoat]

We're talking about entire careers and your strawman was naming a few players that were good defenders. I agree, it's not a good argument, for either side.

The point is there were plenty of good defenders in both eras, and plenty of bad defenders in both eras. Nobody really knows how much they scored on good ones vs. bad so it's not a good argument.

I named like 30 lol. Half ur players barely played Jordan and you named like 10. Funny thing is, prime MJ consistently drops vs those defenders you name too… difference between him and bron, plus bron plays better team defenses.

Ok break down for me each series and how many times Lebron scored on the good defender vs. the bad one, you can't.

Your argument doesn't work. It doesn't prove anything.

Just because a good defender is on a team doesn't mean he always scored on that defender. If that defender is on the bench and he scored against a bad bench player is that the same thing? No, so what you're trying to do doesn't work for either Lebron or Jordan.

Lebron fans always want to make it complicated, because the simple answer is Jordan was the better scorer.

Yea you’re playing skeptic with no concrete argument rn. I’ll leave now.

[lessthanjake]

This is interesting information. Others have made some obvious points about it, which I won’t repeat.

Can you explain why you included the 2014 Bobcats though? They did not have a -3.0 rDRTG.

Also, I get that you ostensibly analyzed corresponding years by age, but you actually started at age 22 for Jordan and started at age 24 for LeBron, which obscures the fact that LeBron really struggled in playoff series against 3.0+ rDRTG defenses at ages 22 and 23. (He had 22 PPG on -8.3 rTS% against the 2007 Spurs, and 26.7 PPG on -2.8 rTS% against the 2008 Celtics). I think if you included those and took out the 2014 Bobcats, you might find the results look pretty different.