Gary Trent Jr. - Fair Contract Offer?

[SpezNc]

We can let Trent go and be over the cap and probably not use the space then. We can let Trent and Bruce Bown go and be 12 mil under the cap and not have the 13 mil MLE.

There pretty much has to be some sort of trade. But I doubt we have enough space to sign 4 guys.

Once they extended Olynyk I figure that means they are operating above the cap.

Going by Spotrac, they're at $105M for guaranteed dollars + IQ caphold. Assuming they keep their picks, that will be roughly another $12-13M for the 2 rookies + 1 minimum player, which means they could have $23M of space available.

On the face of it, GTJ + Brown + MLE is likely better than whatever you can get for $23M. If I had to guess, they'll keep Brown to stay above cap, let GTJ go and target a backup guard with the MLE. Maybe they try to move Boucher, or bundle him with Brown, but I'm not sure what's out there.

Starters: Poeltl, Barnes, Brown, RJ, IQ
Bench: KO, Boucher, Dick, Agbaji, MLE, 2 rooks

Another option with Brown is decline the option and then negotiate a new deal with him.

[Johnny Bball]

We can let Trent go and be over the cap and probably not use the space then. We can let Trent and Bruce Bown go and be 12 mil under the cap and not have the 13 mil MLE.

There pretty much has to be some sort of trade. But I doubt we have enough space to sign 4 guys.

Once they extended Olynyk I figure that means they are operating above the cap.

Going by Spotrac, they're at $105M for guaranteed dollars + IQ caphold. Assuming they keep their picks, that will be roughly another $12-13M for the 2 rookies + 1 minimum player, which means they could have $23M of space available.

On the face of it, GTJ + Brown + MLE is likely better than whatever you can get for $23M. If I had to guess, they'll keep Brown to stay above cap, let GTJ go and target a backup guard with the MLE. Maybe they try to move Boucher, or bundle him with Brown, but I'm not sure what's out there.

Starters: Poeltl, Barnes, Brown, RJ, IQ
Bench: KO, Boucher, Dick, Agbaji, MLE, 2 rooks

Now add Olynyk's salary that's not recorded yet.

[brownbobcat]

We can let Trent go and be over the cap and probably not use the space then. We can let Trent and Bruce Bown go and be 12 mil under the cap and not have the 13 mil MLE.

There pretty much has to be some sort of trade. But I doubt we have enough space to sign 4 guys.

Once they extended Olynyk I figure that means they are operating above the cap.

Going by Spotrac, they're at $105M for guaranteed dollars + IQ caphold. Assuming they keep their picks, that will be roughly another $12-13M for the 2 rookies + 1 minimum player, which means they could have $23M of space available.

On the face of it, GTJ + Brown + MLE is likely better than whatever you can get for $23M. If I had to guess, they'll keep Brown to stay above cap, let GTJ go and target a backup guard with the MLE. Maybe they try to move Boucher, or bundle him with Brown, but I'm not sure what's out there.

Starters: Poeltl, Barnes, Brown, RJ, IQ
Bench: KO, Boucher, Dick, Agbaji, MLE, 2 rooks

Now add Olynyk's salary that's not recorded yet.

That already includes KO's salary at $12.8M for next year. Look for yourself:
https://www.spotrac.com/nba/toronto-raptors/yearly/cap/

[brownbobcat]

Another option with Brown is decline the option and then negotiate a new deal with him.

Possible, but unlikely. If they decline the option, they have to use cap room to sign him and thus lose the MLE.

[ConSarnit]

Another option with Brown is decline the option and then negotiate a new deal with him.

Possible, but unlikely. If they decline the option, they have to use cap room to sign him and thus lose the MLE.

I guess the question is what’s a new contract for Brown look like? If I’m him I’m thinking “I make $23m this year and then I’m probably looking at an MLE deal (let’s call it 2/26)”. So for Brown to be made “whole” that’s around 3/50. Is that a deal that can get us decent value back? I don’t know. From our end we could say “if we let you go you’re looking at an MLE deal next year so we need a bit of a discount in exchange for guaranteed money”. So maybe 3/45? It all depends on what Brown’s market would be this off-season. If we re-sign him it needs to be on a deal that’s tradable for value and at anything over the MLE that becomes dicey as his play here was not encouraging and he doesn’t seem like a long term fit here.

[tecumseh18]

So that's your takeaway and response... you're hilarious lol.

And your takeaway is what ... Trent is the 58th best shooting guard. Because that's **** stupid. Grayson Allen is no better than 34th out of SG?

Here's my takeaway. PER has nothing to do with efficiency beside burying the TS% stat in with ten more.

Here is my take Raps do not feel Trent is worth any more than the MLE. They were supposed to have a deal done in 2023. Never happened. I am also not saying the PER evalution is gospel but show the advance sats that say he is worth being paid in the range of 23ish.

Every stat - advanced or Hollinger-created - has its weaknesses. Of course PER is not gospel, but it's a convenient (and easy to find) aggregation of the box score counting numbers. Which actually do matter. It's a team game, but you need guys who can produce. There's no question the top PER guys are the top guys, period. And the bottom PER guys are the bottom guys, period.

Traditionally, the PER formula seemed to overweight rebounds. But rebounding is still important - as important as TS% if not more so - and something this team, and especially Gary, is terrible at. Team defence is the missing element in PER. Steals count in PER, but we all know Gary's gambling often hurts the team defensively. OTOH, Orlando have no starters with a PER >18. Not Paulo, not Franz, not even the higher efficiency version of Suggs. But yeah, they play defence well, which helps them to beat bad and mid teams consistently. Advanced stats are probably useful to illustrate their strengths as players.

BTW, Scottie has a PER of 19.7, almost identical to the official Stephen A.-approved "Face of the League" Anthony Edwards.

[brownbobcat]

Another option with Brown is decline the option and then negotiate a new deal with him.

Possible, but unlikely. If they decline the option, they have to use cap room to sign him and thus lose the MLE.

I guess the question is what’s a new contract for Brown look like? If I’m him I’m thinking “I make $23m this year and then I’m probably looking at an MLE deal (let’s call it 2/26)”. So for Brown to be made “whole” that’s around 3/50. Is that a deal that can get us decent value back? I don’t know. From our end we could say “if we let you go you’re looking at an MLE deal next year so we need a bit of a discount in exchange for guaranteed money”. So maybe 3/45? It all depends on what Brown’s market would be this off-season. If we re-sign him it needs to be on a deal that’s tradable for value and at anything over the MLE that becomes dicey as his play here was not encouraging and he doesn’t seem like a long term fit here.

A new contract also means you can't trade him until Dec 15th - which isn't a huge limitation. It might come down to the type of trade they think is more likely. If you want to trade him to a contender looking to beef up, a MLE-type deal might be better. If you want a higher cap number so you can include his contract in bigger deals, then the team option would be better. I think the latter is what limited his value at the last deadline. Teams liked the opt-out, but didn't have enough room to accommodate his $22M cap number or otherwise thought it wasn't a good use of the space.

I don't think Toronto particularly wants him in the long term and will want to keep options open for a trade, so an opt-in seems likely.

[Johnny Bball]

Going by Spotrac, they're at $105M for guaranteed dollars + IQ caphold. Assuming they keep their picks, that will be roughly another $12-13M for the 2 rookies + 1 minimum player, which means they could have $23M of space available.

On the face of it, GTJ + Brown + MLE is likely better than whatever you can get for $23M. If I had to guess, they'll keep Brown to stay above cap, let GTJ go and target a backup guard with the MLE. Maybe they try to move Boucher, or bundle him with Brown, but I'm not sure what's out there.

Starters: Poeltl, Barnes, Brown, RJ, IQ
Bench: KO, Boucher, Dick, Agbaji, MLE, 2 rooks

Now add Olynyk's salary that's not recorded yet.

That already includes KO's salary at $12.8M for next year. Look for yourself:
https://www.spotrac.com/nba/toronto-raptors/yearly/cap/

BBref had us at 105 million without Olynk. Weird. Someone will make sure its right eventually.

[brownbobcat]

Now add Olynyk's salary that's not recorded yet.

That already includes KO's salary at $12.8M for next year. Look for yourself:
https://www.spotrac.com/nba/toronto-raptors/yearly/cap/

BBref had us at 105 million without Olynk. Weird. Someone will make sure its right eventually.

Spotrac is more updated. The BBRef # includes Brown, but not Ko's extension, the capholds for IQ nor the picks. Obviously the $ impact of the pick is not exactly known since it could convey to SA

[Johnny Bball]

That already includes KO's salary at $12.8M for next year. Look for yourself:
https://www.spotrac.com/nba/toronto-raptors/yearly/cap/

BBref had us at 105 million without Olynk. Weird. Someone will make sure its right eventually.

Spotrac is more updated. The BBRef # includes Brown, but not Ko's extension, the capholds for IQ nor the picks. Obviously the $ impact of the pick is not exactly known since it could convey to SA

Thats why I was confused that its the same number.

[OAKLEY_2]

And your takeaway is what ... Trent is the 58th best shooting guard. Because that's **** stupid. Grayson Allen is no better than 34th out of SG?

Here's my takeaway. PER has nothing to do with efficiency beside burying the TS% stat in with ten more.

Here is my take Raps do not feel Trent is worth any more than the MLE. They were supposed to have a deal done in 2023. Never happened. I am also not saying the PER evalution is gospel but show the advance sats that say he is worth being paid in the range of 23ish.

Every stat - advanced or Hollinger-created - has its weaknesses. Of course PER is not gospel, but it's a convenient (and easy to find) aggregation of the box score counting numbers. Which actually do matter. It's a team game, but you need guys who can produce. There's no question the top PER guys are the top guys, period. And the bottom PER guys are the bottom guys, period.

Traditionally, the PER formula seemed to overweight rebounds. But rebounding is still important - as important as TS% if not more so - and something this team, and especially Gary, is terrible at. Team defence is the missing element in PER. Steals count in PER, but we all know Gary's gambling often hurts the team defensively. OTOH, Orlando have no starters with a PER >18. Not Paulo, not Franz, not even the higher efficiency version of Suggs. But yeah, they play defence well, which helps them to beat bad and mid teams consistently. Advanced stats are probably useful to illustrate their strengths as players.

BTW, Scottie has a PER of 19.7, almost identical to the official Stephen A.-approved "Face of the League" Anthony Jackson.

Thanks for making the point better than I could have. Bottom line is that Gary is a shooter like Lou Williams, he of three time 6th man of the year award and countless girlfriends. Very quickly the Raptors soured on Williams as one dimensional. They'd lose with Williams and win with non prime John Salmons.

[SpezNc]

Another option with Brown is decline the option and then negotiate a new deal with him.

Possible, but unlikely. If they decline the option, they have to use cap room to sign him and thus lose the MLE.

I am saying that because on Raptors show a while back after TDL, I pretty sure Bobby Webster said that one of the option not mentions is to decline and negotiate.

I was surprise that his comments didn’t generate any discussion.

So much that I went back multiple times to make sure I listen properly. English is my second langage therefore I could have easily misunderstood Webster but in same time I am pretty sure that I heard him well.

[OAKLEY_2]

If per says one thing it says do not invest in Buddy Hield at his probable open market. Hield's stats are worse than Gary.

[dagger]

Another option with Brown is decline the option and then negotiate a new deal with him.

Possible, but unlikely. If they decline the option, they have to use cap room to sign him and thus lose the MLE.

Not sure of that, since as a non-Bird FA taking less than his waived option, he still gets a veteran exception.

I sued to be up on these details but perhaps someone can check me on this:

• Non-Qualifying Veteran Free Agent (aka “Non-Bird”) Exception: A team may re-sign its own free agent who is neither a “Bird” nor an “Early Bird” player to a contract with a first-year salary of up to the greater of (a) 120% of the player’s salary in the last season of his prior contract, (b) 120% of the player’s applicable minimum salary for the current season, or (c) if the player is a Restricted Free Agent, his Qualifying Offer amount.

[HangTime]

I wonder if we can make an offer like this:

Year 1 - $15M
Year 2 - $18M (only $3M guaranteed, if waived before August 15)
Year 3 - $21M (team option)

So, at worst, it's $18M for 1 year.

Not just Gary, but anyone we're looking at.

[brownbobcat]

Another option with Brown is decline the option and then negotiate a new deal with him.

Possible, but unlikely. If they decline the option, they have to use cap room to sign him and thus lose the MLE.

Not sure of that, since as a non-Bird FA taking less than his waived option, he still gets a veteran exception.

I sued to be up on these details but perhaps someone can check me on this:

• Non-Qualifying Veteran Free Agent (aka “Non-Bird”) Exception: A team may re-sign its own free agent who is neither a “Bird” nor an “Early Bird” player to a contract with a first-year salary of up to the greater of (a) 120% of the player’s salary in the last season of his prior contract, (b) 120% of the player’s applicable minimum salary for the current season, or (c) if the player is a Restricted Free Agent, his Qualifying Offer amount.

I'm not 100% sure, but I believe that "its own free agent" only applies when a player's contract is up but you still have some rights attached. If you decline the team option, I think you are essentially waiving all rights since they are now an unrestricted FA.

[Psubs]

What about Nicolas Batum for the MLE. Better use of funds to pay the MLE for a 6th man. Save the savings for IQ.

[HangTime]

What about Nicolas Batum for the MLE. Better use of funds to pay the MLE for a 6th man. Save the savings for IQ.

I thought he was retiring at the end of the year.

[brownbobcat]

What about Nicolas Batum for the MLE. Better use of funds to pay the MLE for a 6th man. Save the savings for IQ.

He is a gazillion years old, no thanks.

[Johnny Bball]

Not to mention I'm sure the Raptors have fielded offers for him and got no real offers. Teams aren't throwing around money stupidly as much with the new cap structure.

Im not a fan of Trent so thats why i said 15M per season but i cant see him getting more than 17.5M per season.

Yeah, anyone can see the slant there. No need to say it.

Any comment after a clearly better player in Grayson Allen just signed for 4/70? Lol

Any comment that now that at least HE knew what his worth really was? And... lol.

Like I said.. he took a discount and really wanted to stay.

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