Doctor MJ wrote:.
OldSchoolNoBull wrote:So, this marks the 35th consecutive ballot for Cliff Hagan(gotta be some kind of record). In light of this milestone and of the fact that there's only a few more chances left, I just wanted to take one more look at him and at this saga.
He achieved nomination(in a tie with Elvin Hayes) in thread #62(in which Pau Gasol was inducted). He gained a faction of support pretty quickly and was consistently in contention, culminating when he and Big Ben Wallace tied with 4 votes a piece in thread #68, triggering a runoff which Big Ben won.
Trex had been presenting WOWY W/L records of small(less than five games in most cases) sample size as a rebuttal to the Hagan support starting in thread #66, and by thread #69, that support collapsed all at once, and Hagan has been sort of hanging around ever since.
I did not then, and I do not now, find those W/L records especially compelling in light of their (lack of) size, and remain surprised that that argument was taken as gospel from then on.
I added to that Taylor's WOWYR (which factors in before/after he left, as well as some other weightings which [frequently enough] results in WOWYR often looking
very different from raw WOWY. Hagan still looks exceedingly pedestrian in WOWYR (+1.3 for prime, +1.1 for career).
I noted also perception of him
at the time (both media and fellow players): he only twice made an All-NBA Team [media voted], both of them 2nd Team; he never ranked higher than 9th in the league in MVP Award shares [player voted], only four NBA seasons + 1 ABA season did he receive any votes at all.
^^^Across the board he was not---
at the time---perceived as highly as we [well....
you] are trying to portray him here.
We also have at least one account [from a coach] who somewhat emphatically denigrated his defense (which is potential factor accounting for the lack of obvious impact and respect from his peers).
Just putting that all out there (
in addition to the non-flattering WOWY).
OldSchoolNoBull wrote:Hagan was a #1B/#2 on a championship team.
I would object to the notion that he was a "1B"; or at least I would point out that seemingly no one at the time felt he was a "1B": Pettit was All-NBA 1st Team and took 0.243 MVP shares [4th]; Hagan was All-NBA 2nd Team and took 0.005 MVP shares [11th].
Everyone at the time had a fairly clear idea of who the best player on that team was.
OldSchoolNoBull wrote:He's not the only such player not to be inducted yet, but it's a fairly small handful of players that fit that description that haven't been inducted, and I think Hagan has a better era-relative argument than all of them. The others I'm thinking of are:
Jamaal Wilkes(75 Warriors, though not sure everyone would agree he was #2)
Maurice Lucas(77 Blazers)
Dennis Johnson(79 Sonics, if you do not consider Gus and Sikma #1 and #2)
Bill Laimbeer(89 and 90 Pistons)
Somebody from the 94 Rockets(genuinely unsure who, Horry, Thorpe, Kenny, Mad Max?)
Jason Terry(11 Mavs)
Kyrie Irving(16 Cavs)
Jrue Holiday(21 Bucks)
Jamal Murray(23 Nuggets)
Now, here's the sample that IMO matters for Hagan - these are his RS league ranks in PPG, TS Add, RPG, APG from 57-58 through 1961-62, his five-year peak:
1958 - #7 PPG, #5 TS Add, #20 RPG, #20 APG
1959 - #5 PPG, #4 TS Add, #9 RPG, #12 APG
1960 - #5 PPG, #2 TS Add, #10 RPG, #12 APG
1961 - #11 PPG, #9 TS Add, #17 RPG, #9 APG
1962 - #8 PPG, #9 TS Add, #19 RPG, #8 APG
I would point out that Neil Johnston was as much a "#1B/#2" on a title-winning team as Hagan [and only two years earlier, fwiw], and here are his league ranks in ppg, TS Add, rpg, and apg in his best 5-year span ['53-'57]:
1953 - #1 PPG, #1 TS Add, #2 RPG, t#27 APG
1954 - #1 PPG, #1 TS Add, #6 RPG, t#21 APG
1955 - #1 PPG, #1 TS Add, #1 RPG, t#23 APG
1956 - #3 PPG, #1 TS Add, #4 RPG, t#16 APG
1957 - #3 PPG, #1 TS Add, #6 RPG, t#15 APG
He appears to utterly trounce Hagan in the very measures you're citing, and has the same legacy chip.
His WOWY also looks better (there is no WOWYR). MVP shares are a bit of an unknown (not awarded until '57), though not looking promising (as far as player perception); although, in '58 [where he's barely in his prime anymore], he's right behind Hagan at 12th with 0.003 MVP shares (and that's Hagan's arguable peak year......it's not even one of Johnston's top 5).
And with the media, Johnston was All-NBA each of the above years [4x 1st Team].
Why are we [you] not championing him? Because Hagan had a little better [statistical] playoff run during the one title year? Does that off-set all of the above?
EDIT: Personally, I rank Johnston, as well as Bill Laimbeer ahead of Hagan all-time. Am also considering Jrue Holiday, who I think I've been sleeping on a for awhile.
"The fact that a proposition is absurd has never hindered those who wish to believe it." -Edward Rutherfurd
"Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities." - Voltaire