Starting a team in 2024 - Shaq or Joker
Moderators: cupcakesnake, infinite11285, Dirk, Harry Garris, ken6199, zimpy27, bwgood77, bisme37, KingDavid, Domejandro
Re: Starting a team in 2024 - Shaq or Joker
-
- Pro Prospect
- Posts: 782
- And1: 653
- Joined: Jun 29, 2011
Re: Starting a team in 2024 - Shaq or Joker
Lol, Shaq in todays game would be free dunks + And1. The question is whether he could adjust on perimeter defense. He was very agile for his size during his young and prime days, so I'd incline to believe he could.
Re: Starting a team in 2024 - Shaq or Joker
-
- Starter
- Posts: 2,143
- And1: 1,301
- Joined: Feb 03, 2023
Re: Starting a team in 2024 - Shaq or Joker
If Shaq was in the league today, many of the top centers in the NBA today would probably move to PF when they play his team. Teams would sign a couple of big men just to throw at Shaq.
Re: Starting a team in 2024 - Shaq or Joker
- Wargreymon
- Lead Assistant
- Posts: 4,842
- And1: 6,799
- Joined: Feb 29, 2016
Re: Starting a team in 2024 - Shaq or Joker
I don't think Shaq would be quick enough to switch everything and guard the 3 point line. Maybe rookie Shaq out of LSU might be capable when he wasn't as chunky but definitely not the LA behemoth Shaq. Not to mention the hack a Shaq would be a pace killer especially in the 4th. Gimme Jokic in 2024.
Re: Starting a team in 2024 - Shaq or Joker
-
- Assistant Coach
- Posts: 4,269
- And1: 1,795
- Joined: Mar 30, 2014
Re: Starting a team in 2024 - Shaq or Joker
Give me Shaq. He's shown what he can do when in shape from his stats in the Finals while on the Lakers. Modern NBA I would hope he would keep more of the Orlando Shaq frame which would allow him to guard both the perimeter and paint.
If he kept the Orlando Shaq frame he would be the best in the league right now.
He also was a good passer. He would put up 35, 12-13 rpg, 4-5 apg with 2-3 blocks. He'd be Embiid but a better finisher and defender with no jump shot.
If he kept the Orlando Shaq frame he would be the best in the league right now.
He also was a good passer. He would put up 35, 12-13 rpg, 4-5 apg with 2-3 blocks. He'd be Embiid but a better finisher and defender with no jump shot.
Re: Starting a team in 2024 - Shaq or Joker
-
- Lead Assistant
- Posts: 5,421
- And1: 4,786
- Joined: Dec 24, 2012
Re: Starting a team in 2024 - Shaq or Joker
I'd take Shaq, he's the better defender.
Anyone who pretends this "isn't close" doesn't know what they're talking about. This is a tough call.
Anyone who pretends this "isn't close" doesn't know what they're talking about. This is a tough call.
Re: Starting a team in 2024 - Shaq or Joker
-
- Ballboy
- Posts: 20
- And1: 25
- Joined: Feb 21, 2024
Re: Starting a team in 2024 - Shaq or Joker
Knowing what we know now, I'd pick Joker.
Sure, you might be in contending mode at the jump with Shaq, but as a long term, 15-year investment Joker will be the better ROI.
Sure, you might be in contending mode at the jump with Shaq, but as a long term, 15-year investment Joker will be the better ROI.
Re: Starting a team in 2024 - Shaq or Joker
- pillwenney
- Retired Mod
- Posts: 48,856
- And1: 2,572
- Joined: Sep 19, 2004
- Location: Avidly reading pstyousuck.blogspot.com/
- Contact:
Re: Starting a team in 2024 - Shaq or Joker
It's close enough to where it depends on era. Now I'd take Jokic just because his ability to pick apart defenses is what makes him impossible now. IMO that skill gets limited slightly in more crowded eras. It'd still be awesome and maybe even more impressive, but less dominant when most of the team is like 16 feet and in.
Shaq would be impossible in his own way, but in terms of starting a franchise, he's also more high maintenance, probably more likely to leave, and I think a worse leader. And while he was obviously impossible down low and also to be fair a very good passer, I think current Jokic is a more dynamic offensive weapon in the modern league.
With that said, I'd still take Shaq in earlier times. They'd both obviously be incredible in any era.
Shaq would be impossible in his own way, but in terms of starting a franchise, he's also more high maintenance, probably more likely to leave, and I think a worse leader. And while he was obviously impossible down low and also to be fair a very good passer, I think current Jokic is a more dynamic offensive weapon in the modern league.
With that said, I'd still take Shaq in earlier times. They'd both obviously be incredible in any era.
Re: Starting a team in 2024 - Shaq or Joker
-
- Head Coach
- Posts: 6,615
- And1: 6,205
- Joined: Feb 10, 2022
Re: Starting a team in 2024 - Shaq or Joker
Yoshun wrote:I'd take Shaq, he's the better defender.
Anyone who pretends this "isn't close" doesn't know what they're talking about. This is a tough call.
I have Shaq but "better defender" might be the last argument i'd use tbh
rookie Shaq could def hang but Lakers Shaq would be a defensive liability. sure he can protect the rim much better than Jokic but that's that..in all other facets of a modern defense - Jokic is better
Shaq was abused in the PNR even back in the day
Jokic might have a slow first step but he can sprint pretty fast tbh and he is a workhorse. Shaq was lazy, you really think Shaq would be closing out on 3 pt shooters? half ass*d at best
still Shaq for me, but def not because of "defense"
Jokic is already posing a huge issue for switch heavy modern schemes, imagine switching everything and have Shaq guarded by a guard inside haha. in short - teams would have to change their whole defense, there's no way you can switch everything with Shaq around
Re: Starting a team in 2024 - Shaq or Joker
- OkcSinceSGA
- RealGM
- Posts: 29,206
- And1: 30,636
- Joined: Sep 19, 2015
Re: Starting a team in 2024 - Shaq or Joker
Jokic easily. The playmaking just widens the gap too much. I don’t even think in the modern NBA teams would mind an opponent running an offense through Shaq bully ball. Let him get his 30 ppg on dunks, lock up everyone else. Jokic can score 10 and still have a monstrous impact in every other way.
Shaq just doesn’t fit in the modern game defensively.
Shaq just doesn’t fit in the modern game defensively.
“This kid reminds me of a 6-6 Chris Paul. He wants to win everything.”
Olin Simplis- SGA’s trainer.
Olin Simplis- SGA’s trainer.
Re: Starting a team in 2024 - Shaq or Joker
-
- Lead Assistant
- Posts: 5,095
- And1: 6,443
- Joined: Jul 28, 2017
Re: Starting a team in 2024 - Shaq or Joker
Peregrine01 wrote:cdubbz wrote:Peregrine01 wrote:
15 years? You'll hardly make it to 3 years before he starts bitching about some other star that gets paired with him and ultimately demands out.
This is Jokic fairly easily.
Well the original poster said they're guaranteed to stay on the team so i'm assuming he has to stay
Is their trajectory going to be the same? Shaq came into the league a superstar. It took Jokic 4 seasons - i'll take the opportunity to win right from year 1.
Guaranteed to stay with you, but not guaranteed to not feud, come into training camp fat, postpone surgery until the season starts so that you're "healing on company time" and just be a completely unsufferable POS?
I used to think Kobe was the culprit behind much of the Lakers' melodrama but it's become clear that it was Shaq all along.
That’s true, chemistry is one of the most important, if not the most important, factors to win. Imagine Shaq having that roster in 2022 which f’ing Rivers and Campazzo were his point guards, he would demand to be traded at the end of the season.
Also, he would likely feud with Mike Malone and end up in “Either fire him or trade me” situation.
Re: Starting a team in 2024 - Shaq or Joker
-
- General Manager
- Posts: 7,615
- And1: 9,910
- Joined: Aug 08, 2002
Re: Starting a team in 2024 - Shaq or Joker
sikma42 wrote:Duke4life831 wrote:sikma42 wrote:Is it really a sizable margin vs Luka and Embiid?
Sent from my iPhone using RealGM mobile app
Ya Id say so. I mean in the last 4 years Jokic has played in 70 more games than Embiid. Put that into perspective, the most games Embiid has ever played in a season is 68. So in the last 4 years, Denver has essentially gotten 1 extra regular season out of Jokic vs what Philly has gotten from Embiid.
In the last 4 years Id say Jokic has been the leader in probably at least 80% or more of the advanced stats for the regular season. Then you go and look at what he's done in the playoffs. Jokic has arguably been a top 3 playoff performer of all time. And unlike Luka and Embiid, Jokic does have the championship.
And 3 MVPs in 4 years. How many other guys have done that? 7? Id say Jokic has a pretty sizeable gap between him and everyone else at the moment.
Embiid was the front runner for MVP this year and won it last year. If you are head and shoulders better than someone you don’t lose to them back to back for MVPs if not for an injury/rule change.
And Luka imo played better than him this year and will only lose do the strength of his support cast. I think we are conflating awards with who is better. When Shaq played, even when he didn’t when the MVP, we ALL knew who was better…the MVP isn’t for the best player.
Sent from my iPhone using RealGM mobile app
Did you not read his post. He pointed out the availability of Jokic compared to Embiid. Jokic has been way more effective than Embiid in the playoffs not even close. Jokic is the best player in the league.
Re: Starting a team in 2024 - Shaq or Joker
-
- General Manager
- Posts: 7,615
- And1: 9,910
- Joined: Aug 08, 2002
Re: Starting a team in 2024 - Shaq or Joker
Exp0sed wrote:I'm very high on Jokic but Shaq is literally one of the only guys who were clearly better
very hard to compare between eras but I think in this day and age, with so much more money involved as well, Shaq would have alot more incentive to actually stay fit and professional
social media too, would put alot of pressure on a guy like Shaq
he'd be unstoppable
with modern coaching, schemes, medicine, shooting mechanics and analytics there would really be no answer for a more professional and well conditioned version of Shaq
Shaq has been struggling with his weight all of his life. Including now. What makes you think this changes
Re: Starting a team in 2024 - Shaq or Joker
-
- General Manager
- Posts: 7,615
- And1: 9,910
- Joined: Aug 08, 2002
Re: Starting a team in 2024 - Shaq or Joker
SlimShady83 wrote:Please no one could stop Shaq back then, no one can stop Shaq now
Children please
Why do you feel the need to call fellow posters children?
Re: Starting a team in 2024 - Shaq or Joker
- THE J0KER
- Forum Mod - Nuggets
- Posts: 7,098
- And1: 6,602
- Joined: Apr 12, 2017
Re: Starting a team in 2024 - Shaq or Joker
People compare peak-Shaq vs Peak-Jokic, but the true decider from GM's point of view in this case is this:
Number of seasons Shaq missed at least 15 games: 12 out of 19.
Number of seasons Jokic missed at least 10 games: 1 out of 9.
That said, Shaq was a much more marketable player than Jokic, which team owners and GM do not ignore, so coaches would be mostly in favor of Jokic, owners in the favor of Shaq, but not sure about GMs.
Number of seasons Shaq missed at least 15 games: 12 out of 19.
Number of seasons Jokic missed at least 10 games: 1 out of 9.
That said, Shaq was a much more marketable player than Jokic, which team owners and GM do not ignore, so coaches would be mostly in favor of Jokic, owners in the favor of Shaq, but not sure about GMs.
Re: Starting a team in 2024 - Shaq or Joker
-
- General Manager
- Posts: 7,615
- And1: 9,910
- Joined: Aug 08, 2002
Re: Starting a team in 2024 - Shaq or Joker
Give me Shaq back in 2000. Now in modern day it would very close between the two.
Re: Starting a team in 2024 - Shaq or Joker
-
- RealGM
- Posts: 15,016
- And1: 3,768
- Joined: May 05, 2005
- Location: Oakland
Re: Starting a team in 2024 - Shaq or Joker
OkcSinceSGA wrote:Jokic easily. The playmaking just widens the gap too much. I don’t even think in the modern NBA teams would mind an opponent running an offense through Shaq bully ball. Let him get his 30 ppg on dunks, lock up everyone else. Jokic can score 10 and still have a monstrous impact in every other way.
Shaq just doesn’t fit in the modern game defensively.
OP said starting with 20year old versions. 20y/o Shaq would absolutely be able to fit in modern game defensively.
I disagree on modern teams not minding offense ran through Shaq. Shaq forced teams to have sign bigs just to guard him - he would cause foul trouble in most situations eating at opponents big man depth while also helping his team get over the foul limit.
Kuya wrote: a good agent collects all the data, including quotes to give them leverage in contract deals.
Re: Starting a team in 2024 - Shaq or Joker
-
- Head Coach
- Posts: 6,615
- And1: 6,205
- Joined: Feb 10, 2022
Re: Starting a team in 2024 - Shaq or Joker
AleksandarN wrote:Exp0sed wrote:
Shaq has been struggling with his weight all of his life. Including now. What makes you think this changes
idk, just a hunch tbh
perhaps it doesn't change..
i'm assuming if he played today that means he also grew up in a different era and the focus on such things, nutrition, profesionalism etc. starts much earlier now, long before the pros
I will say this for the Jokic column - Jokic has thus far been extremely durable. Shaq was very durable in his first 3 seasons and then he cratered in that respect, perhaps if he had been on a normal weight he could have had more durability as well
if there's a reason to go with Jokic it would def be that imo
Re: Starting a team in 2024 - Shaq or Joker
-
- Head Coach
- Posts: 6,615
- And1: 6,205
- Joined: Feb 10, 2022
Re: Starting a team in 2024 - Shaq or Joker
OkcSinceSGA wrote:Jokic easily. The playmaking just widens the gap too much. I don’t even think in the modern NBA teams would mind an opponent running an offense through Shaq bully ball. Let him get his 30 ppg on dunks, lock up everyone else. Jokic can score 10 and still have a monstrous impact in every other way.
Shaq just doesn’t fit in the modern game defensively.
he wouldn't have 30 tho, he'd have 50
Re: Starting a team in 2024 - Shaq or Joker
-
- Starter
- Posts: 2,133
- And1: 725
- Joined: Dec 30, 2017
- Location: Australia
Re: Starting a team in 2024 - Shaq or Joker
There’s very few Centres/ Traditional bigs in the same tier as what Jokic is playing right now… The fact he has maintained this level for years makes that gap smaller…
Kareem, Hakeem and Shaq are the only guys there with him…
In saying that you can’t stop Jokic, because there just isn’t a formula…
Shaq made everyone take like 2-3 lumbering bigs on their roster just to slow him down… even though people knew how to slow him down, no one (bar Hakeem) could stop him consistently …
Can you imagine if teams were carrying a bunch of Bobans just to slow Shaq down and how easy that mismatch would be to attack for any star guard?
All in all, depends the coach,
If the coach can keep Shaq locked in and playing selfless, he is the guy you’d want…
Otherwise, you go Jokic since you know your getting a great teammate leader consistently along with similar offensive production, but less defensive impact.
Kareem, Hakeem and Shaq are the only guys there with him…
In saying that you can’t stop Jokic, because there just isn’t a formula…
Shaq made everyone take like 2-3 lumbering bigs on their roster just to slow him down… even though people knew how to slow him down, no one (bar Hakeem) could stop him consistently …
Can you imagine if teams were carrying a bunch of Bobans just to slow Shaq down and how easy that mismatch would be to attack for any star guard?
All in all, depends the coach,
If the coach can keep Shaq locked in and playing selfless, he is the guy you’d want…
Otherwise, you go Jokic since you know your getting a great teammate leader consistently along with similar offensive production, but less defensive impact.
After your first, you change, you mature, you dont just jump into things.
After getting dunked on for the first time, life becomes complex.
After getting dunked on for the first time, life becomes complex.
Re: Starting a team in 2024 - Shaq or Joker
-
- Pro Prospect
- Posts: 884
- And1: 1,538
- Joined: Aug 10, 2023
Re: Starting a team in 2024 - Shaq or Joker
Too many people talk about Shaq as this hypothetical version of himself that never actually existed. If you pick Shaq, you have to take him with all of his warts. That means you get his poor work ethic, his durability issues, and his gigantic ego.
For me this is Jokic pretty easily. I think he's a better player on both ends and he clears Shaq in terms of intangibles.
For me this is Jokic pretty easily. I think he's a better player on both ends and he clears Shaq in terms of intangibles.