OhayoKD wrote:ShotCreator wrote:OhayoKD wrote:"Jokic doing less makes him better because it fits my aesthetic preferences even though it doesn't lead to comparable or better offensive results"
Nope. Jokic can play his entire game next to anybody else's entire game. Across the current league and any era. LeBron absolutely cannot do that.
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Jokic made lineups with Plumlee, Faried, Bruce Brown while refusing to shoot, Aaron Gordon while refusing to shoot, work to perfection.
+2.6 offense is now "perfection", fascinating.And what offensive results? I feel this would get into nitpicking series and time periods. I'd rather nitpick skillsets. That's actually way less subject to randomness and chance
You would rather "nitpick skillsets" based on priors like "lebron being a better ball-handler than jokic is a bad thing" and "lebron handling the ball more throughout a possession" is a bad thing, even though actual outcomes suggest those are good things. There is no point in nitpicking skillsets if you are going to pretend one player's advantages are actually weaknesses, particularly when...Lebronnygoat wrote:I don’t know why people keep saying LeBron is worse offensively than players he's obviously superior to
LeBron 2009-2021
656-263 with lebron 0.714% win rate
37-73 without lebron 0.336% win rate
Net rating with lebron +6.49 (59 win pace level)
Net rating without lebron -5.50 (25 win pace level)
+8.6 ortg difference
+12 total swing
Jokic 2022-2024
136-68 (66.7% win rate) with jokic
8-15 (34.8% win rate) without jokic
+4.1 net rating with jokic (53 win pace)
-4.6 net rating without jokic (28 win pace)
+6.5 ortg change
+8.7 overall change
Magic 1984-1991
454-149 75.3% win rate with
29-24 54.7% win rate
+7.4 net rating with (61 win pace level)
+0.2 net rating without (42 win pace level)
+4.9 ortg difference
+7.2 overall difference
Jordan 1988-1998
Bulls with MJ 490-176 (73.6% win rate)
Bulls without MJ 90-64 (58.4% win rate)
Net rating with MJ +7.7 (62 win pace level)
Net rating without MJ +3.6 (52 win pace level)
+5.1 ortg difference
+4 total swing
The most impactful offensive player ever by the facts
Those "weaknesses" seemingly correlate with better team outcomes again and again. Speaking of which...Redmoon wrote:1. Jokic
His combination of scoring and playmaking is untouchable. As we get more playoff runs I don't know if it will be close. He is easily one of the clutchest players I have ever seen. His ability to score at will is second to none and right there with MJ/Bron, yet he doesn't need to be ball dominant. Fluidly blending of his scoring with his playmaking and you have this monster. Its just mind boggling. If it wasn't for his defensive flaws he might run away with the number 1 peak. As the great cavalry commander Maharbal said of military genius Hannibal: "Assuredly, no man has been blessed with all God's gifts".
2. MJ
Basketball is about getting buckets and it just so happens that this dude is the greatest scorer of all time. Resume speaks for itself. The most complete perimeter player besides bron.
3. Bron
If we don't go relative to era I might swap Mj and bron but its close regardless.
4. Curry
It just seems like his scoring game is more easily taken away by defenses compared to the first 3. might be a size thing.
5. Magic
I don't think his scoring game compares with the other 4 here.Rishkar wrote:1. Jokic
1.5. {Nash]
2. Magic
gap
3. Jordan
4. Lebron
5. Curry
Curious what has you two convinced lebron is at or near the bottom of this list offensively when his team improves the most offensively with him of the pack...and this has mantained over a wider variety of contexts than any other player in history.
Can you stop making up fake quotes of what I'm saying?
And actually notice how I said LeBron is faster, I never said he was an actual superior ballhandler. I don't know if that's even true.
Again, about what I thought. Time periods and team play. Things these players are not in full control of. As well as opposition.
LeBron had some bad teammates, scattered through his prime, and some weak competition. Same for Jokic. Like different eras, conferences, coaches. Jokic had a whole prime year in 2017 of being thought of a big fat sixth man by Malone. They miss the playoffs by a game or two. He only got to start maybe 50 or so games.
I don't care about team level stuff that much, especially on this scale. I don't really need it to know what I know. And this a peaks thread anyway.
Again it's all preference. I prefer raw skills and abilities, and then I try to contextualize the team play with that if it's necessary.
I'm not even pretending I know who is better by the way. I didn't even make a choice on that. I do know it is objectively easier to play basketball with Jokic's skill set compared to LeBron's. And that's gonna effect everything. Including the kind of teams you can build.
Bruce Brown and Gordon got to share the court late in the NBA playoffs because of Jokic. And got synergize and dominate with each other on both ends.
I don't think that's happening with practically any version of LeBron. Or Magic really.