Rank these players offensively (peak): Magic, Jordan, LeBron, Curry, Jokic

[AEnigma]

If Lebron were an elite offensive player he would have taken a discount timed with a cap spike so he could sign Kevin Durant at no real team cost.

[Colbinii]

Yea the lakers had bad spacing, but Steph deals with worse. I'm not arguing that the Lakers didn't have terrible spacing. I'm saying Steph had even worse spacing. He's also had the worst 2nd option among these players outside of the KD years.

He also put up considerably worse results, so much so that I fail to see spacing as the major limiting factor as to why Steph was a worse offensive player than LeBron James or Magic Johnson.

But good discussion was had and we both learned something and I think it is now time to move on before talking in another circle

How did Steph have worse results? His regular season offenses reached heights that Lebron's teams never did and then in the postseason where sample sizes are smaller, while he has an overall disadvantage while playing in a stronger conference, he also led much better offenses wversus 5+ SRS teams.

In terms of individual impact stats, he's also at least competitive if not superior to Lebron since 2014-15. I remember lessthanjake posting a whole bunch of them from different sources and Curry leads Lebron more than vice versa.

I have 2016 and 2017 LeBron as the best offensive player ever.

[ardee]

By peak?

2017 LeBron
1991 Jordan
2023 Jokic
1987 Magic (1990 very close)
2016 Curry (controversial, but the regular season was so good that it's still very hard for me to consider any other year his peak. The only other consideration would be 2017 but I think the RS gap is bigger than the PS gap frankly)

[ardee]

He also put up considerably worse results, so much so that I fail to see spacing as the major limiting factor as to why Steph was a worse offensive player than LeBron James or Magic Johnson.

But good discussion was had and we both learned something and I think it is now time to move on before talking in another circle

How did Steph have worse results? His regular season offenses reached heights that Lebron's teams never did and then in the postseason where sample sizes are smaller, while he has an overall disadvantage while playing in a stronger conference, he also led much better offenses wversus 5+ SRS teams.

In terms of individual impact stats, he's also at least competitive if not superior to Lebron since 2014-15. I remember lessthanjake posting a whole bunch of them from different sources and Curry leads Lebron more than vice versa.

I have 2016 and 2017 LeBron as the best offensive player ever.

I think 2017 and 2018 were a level up from 2016 purely on offense, but 2016 was good enough defensively to still put it in the ballpark for his overall peak.

[McBubbles]

And actually notice how I said LeBron is faster, I never said he was an actual superior ballhandler. I don't know if that's even true.

This is low-key one of the strangest things I've read.

Lebron can do all the things on ball that Jokic can do, whilst Jokic can't do half the things on ball that Lebron can do, but you don't know who's the better ball handler, just that Lebron is faster?

That's like saying you don't know if Jokic is a better rebounder than Lebron, just that he's taller, heavier and stronger with longer arms.

Skills and athleticism aren't in seperate categories. They're on a continuum, with "physical" (measurable) athleticism being on one side and hand-eye coordination being on the other. There are no pure versions of ball handling skills that are isolated from athleticism. If you have a lower centre of gravity and better acceleration, deceleration and lateral quickness that allows you to initiate a variety of play types whilst moving without being stripped relative to another player, then you have better handles than said player. What else is there to consider?

[Laimbeer]

This is a classic "depends " question. But if they have average teammates, playing today, probably LeBron. It's somewhat era-dependent as well. Jordan was more effective in his role as a go-to scorer before threes dominated the game.

[Top10alltime]

Peaks-wise, here is my list, with very short explanations that I'll edit when I have time:

1. 17/18 Lebron - Led elite offenses, very dominant on-ball as a scorer and a PM, he was GOAT lvl as always. Led elite offenses with limited help, so GOAT lvl floor raising season.
2. 87/90 Magic - He was limited off-ball, but he could run your offenses spectacularly. He has all-time floor raising without Kareem (LA not stacked), and he is GOAT tier PM as he is GOAT lvl creator and passer, also his decision making was very quick. He is still ATG scorer in these seasons as well.
3. 16/17 Steph - This was tough between Steph and Jordan, but I'm leaning Steph. Both of them don't have significant edge in their on-ball play, while Steph WIPES off the ball. Both of them have players to handle on-ball stuff for them (Draymond and Pippen initiators on-ball). He has the GOAT RS scoring ever in 16, along with top 10 ever PM. I don't think Jordan reaches that level, but if you can show me the film of his on-ball presence, then I can move him here.
4. 90/91 Jordan - This is GOAT scorer ever. He's not above Steph, but he is lock for top 4 (Jokic is not quite at that level imo). GOAT scorer as his all-time finishing and GOAT mid-range combo with great post moves is excellent. Along with ATG playmaking, he's at this spot.
5. 23/25 Jokic - Jokic has excellent impact, he is great off-ball, and ATG PM and scorer. What holds him back?
He is a center, not good enough as a PM yet (still GOAT playmaking center), and his scoring while better than Magic/Nash is not close to level of Lebron/Jordan/Steph. He is not ball-handler of his team, and his off-ball is not at level of Jordan or Steph to make up for it.