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There's a proven blueprint for success. So why didn't the Dubs follow it?

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Re: There's a proven blueprint for success. So why didn't the Dubs follow it? 

Post#81 » by SinceGatlingWasARookie » Sun Apr 14, 2024 5:50 pm

CDM_Stats wrote:
vvoland wrote:
EvanZ wrote:
When did Quinones have to play better than Moody to get minutes? Hmm....


Q is not playing over Moody. Q is playing 3rd string PG, Kerr almost never plays moody as a guard since Kerr seems to think anyone not a PG is a forward. Moody will only get playing time over wiggs, jk or klay. He won't play in place of our ball-handling guards like podz, curry or q.

Whether we agree with that is moot. Kerr seems determined to play 3 ball handlers on the floor or dray/curry. I think it's a bit conservative but he trusts klay, jk and wigs to dribble even less than i do. If you can't attack the rim and then not panic and dribble out of the paint, he won't really let you dribble anymore.

Q started playing when cp3 got hurt and cojo started slipping further in the lineup. With the cojo trade, q's role increased. Moody is not relevant to that conversation (as far as Kerr is concerned, at least).


Q played 16 minutes last night, 12.5 of them were with Podz. If he is the 3rd PG - and I'm not saying he isn't - then Kerr is playing a 2 PG lineup almost exclusively when Curry sits. Thats with guys like Saric (capable passer/handler for a big), GP2, and typically a forward/center that doesnt shoot well consistently (JK/Wiggins/TJD/Looney)

If that is Kerr's idea, its absolutely fair to question it, because its godawful on paper unless Q is going off offensively. Klay saved the day yesterday, but thats not something to bank on, at least not at that level


Quinones and Payton do not see the open men and pass like point guards. Podz does play like a point guard.
Podz can dump the ball to Quinones and then get the ball back from Quinones if the ball pressure gets to much for Podz. Quinones will not cough up the ball and Quinones might create something off the dribble for himself but Quinones is not a point guard and Quinones will not create much for others.
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Re: There's a proven blueprint for success. So why didn't the Dubs follow it? 

Post#82 » by WarriorGM » Thu May 2, 2024 3:52 am

There's a proven blueprint for success. I will judge the offseason based on whether the team follows it.
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Re: There's a proven blueprint for success. So why didn't the Dubs follow it? 

Post#83 » by Impuniti » Thu May 2, 2024 1:16 pm

oaktownwarriors87 wrote:
Sleepy51 wrote:Who were the 4/5’s that did get signed for vet minimum elsewhere last season? JMG flopped, but who did they miss on that they should have signed in his place?


It sounded like Bob didn't believe Kerr would have played anyone they could have signed or traded for.


Then again, Kerr didn't play Lamb and he can't rebound or defend the rim. So why did they sign him? If he's not going to make the playoff rotation you might as well sign a big man as insurance for Looney. They could have gone after Favors, Love and Chriss to name a few.

It feels like Bob and Kerr had differing points of view and there may have been a disconnect.

The issue with Lamb was even worse than that. He played all of regular season and then never used him once the playoffs started. Ok, so why play him that many minutes during RS if you're not going to use him? When others could have played and developed to be more ready during the PS? :banghead:

I just don't understand the thought process.
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Re: There's a proven blueprint for success. So why didn't the Dubs follow it? 

Post#84 » by TB » Thu May 2, 2024 4:53 pm

The funny thing is I actually think they HAVE followed the blueprint, which has been the problem since KD left.

Huge shout out to Steph (for carrying) and multiple guys having a couple insane months of health and performances in 2022 (Wiggins, Looney, Poole, Otto, Belly, GP2) to get that ring... but it also covered up a lot of the issues Bob Myers was causing.

It required Otto and Belly being healthy and playing their best ball (neither have played basketball since that year for the most part). Poole and Wiggins and Looney all played out of their minds.

JMG and Donte were solid signings at the time. In theory, JMG playing at his best could put in some decent performances. The problem is that it was REQUIRED for him to play out of his mind for us to have a chance with a backup big. All other spots were taken by young players or 2way players not doing nearly enough, very similar to the year prior.

Then this year we copied essentially the same formula. Saric and Joseph were good signings for vet mins. They even showed some flashes not much different than the regular season flashes Otto and Belly had. But Kerr had gone away from them by the time CP3 was hurt and switched to going with rookies (really good rookies, but still rookies).

The difference with this upcoming year, in theory, is that a lot of young players SHOULD be ready. Kuminga, Moody, Podz, Trayce can't just be in the rotation, they need to be playing winning basketball if we want to have a contender. Whoever can't do that this upcoming year should be moved.... which is unfortunate because its a couple years late to go that route. Almost in this strange purgatory where trading all the youth probably doesn't get back enough to help the current version of the big 3... and sticking with the youth won't give the big 3 a contender anytime soon enough either.
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Re: There's a proven blueprint for success. So why didn't the Dubs follow it? 

Post#85 » by Onus » Thu May 2, 2024 5:04 pm

TB wrote:The funny thing is I actually think they HAVE followed the blueprint, which has been the problem since KD left.

Huge shout out to Steph (for carrying) and multiple guys having a couple insane months of health and performances in 2022 (Wiggins, Looney, Poole, Otto, Belly, GP2) to get that ring... but it also covered up a lot of the issues Bob Myers was causing.

It required Otto and Belly being healthy and playing their best ball (neither have played basketball since that year for the most part). Poole and Wiggins and Looney all played out of their minds.

JMG and Donte were solid signings at the time. In theory, JMG playing at his best could put in some decent performances. The problem is that it was REQUIRED for him to play out of his mind for us to have a chance with a backup big. All other spots were taken by young players or 2way players not doing nearly enough, very similar to the year prior.

Then this year we copied essentially the same formula. Saric and Joseph were good signings for vet mins. They even showed some flashes not much different than the regular season flashes Otto and Belly had. But Kerr had gone away from them by the time CP3 was hurt and switched to going with rookies (really good rookies, but still rookies).

The difference with this upcoming year, in theory, is that a lot of young players SHOULD be ready. Kuminga, Moody, Podz, Trayce can't just be in the rotation, they need to be playing winning basketball if we want to have a contender. Whoever can't do that this upcoming year should be moved.... which is unfortunate because its a couple years late to go that route.

Really we've never found a true replacement for OPJ. It's supposed to be JK but JK doesn't play anything like OPJ. It's slim pickings in FA. Really think it's going to be through the draft and then that player has to be like TJD who is ready to play right away and is able to break through and win a rotation spot. If we can find a shooting 4 and/or 5 and move JK to the 2, think that would help him out a lot.

Trade Podz, TJD, Moody (add gp2 for salary filler) + 26 and 28 1sts for Lauri. Draft Karaban. Sign Dunn and Jessup. Need to find another wing somehow.

Curry/Dunn
JK/Q/JJ
Wiggins/Gui
Dray/Karaban
Lauri/Looney/Garuba
Most 4th Quarter Points in Final since 1991
1995 Shaquille O'Neal 11.5
2000 Shaquille O'Neal 11.5 (61.1% TS)
2015 Stephen Curry 10.8 (75.1% TS)
1997 Michael Jordan 10.7 (55.1% TS)
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2011 Dirk Nowitzki 10.3 (68.0% TS)
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Re: There's a proven blueprint for success. So why didn't the Dubs follow it? 

Post#86 » by WarriorGM » Sat May 4, 2024 4:29 am

TB wrote:The funny thing is I actually think they HAVE followed the blueprint, which has been the problem since KD left.

Huge shout out to Steph (for carrying) and multiple guys having a couple insane months of health and performances in 2022 (Wiggins, Looney, Poole, Otto, Belly, GP2) to get that ring... but it also covered up a lot of the issues Bob Myers was causing.

It required Otto and Belly being healthy and playing their best ball (neither have played basketball since that year for the most part). Poole and Wiggins and Looney all played out of their minds.

JMG and Donte were solid signings at the time. In theory, JMG playing at his best could put in some decent performances. The problem is that it was REQUIRED for him to play out of his mind for us to have a chance with a backup big. All other spots were taken by young players or 2way players not doing nearly enough, very similar to the year prior.

Then this year we copied essentially the same formula. Saric and Joseph were good signings for vet mins. They even showed some flashes not much different than the regular season flashes Otto and Belly had. But Kerr had gone away from them by the time CP3 was hurt and switched to going with rookies (really good rookies, but still rookies).

The difference with this upcoming year, in theory, is that a lot of young players SHOULD be ready. Kuminga, Moody, Podz, Trayce can't just be in the rotation, they need to be playing winning basketball if we want to have a contender. Whoever can't do that this upcoming year should be moved.... which is unfortunate because its a couple years late to go that route. Almost in this strange purgatory where trading all the youth probably doesn't get back enough to help the current version of the big 3... and sticking with the youth won't give the big 3 a contender anytime soon enough either.


As you point out the main deficiency compared to the 2022 team that this 2024 version lacked was someone to fill Otto Porter's shoes. What made a Otto attractive? He was 3 and D. Who comes closest to that on the current roster? I'd say Moody. Yet he wasn't played as much as he could have been and that's why that has been the source of a great deal of angst. Klay falling off also required someone to start replacing him. This team required at least one or two other 3 and D candidates. That's not really Kuminga's profile and Lester and Gui don't really look like it either.

Wiggins was just a bizarre case this year. Cannot blame the front office for not being able to anticipate his poor play but once it was clear he was playing bad it was a great excuse to give Moody, JK, TJD more minutes yet Kerr still dragged his feet.

CP3 just doesn't fit the prior winning model. One was just hoping his high IQ would cover up the bad fit with the model.

That Podziemski and TJD were able to play a good deal of minutes is a bonus. But it was not something that the team could really depend upon and relying on rookies for major contributions in the playoffs is a big ask.

I can see the Saric and Bjelica comparison but Saric was inferior to Bjelica in the times the team needed big man defense. In terms of big man defense there were a lot of other more obvious names to consider. Still there were lineups where Saric showed some promise as being playable although not in the exact role Bjelica played. The coaching staff didn't seem interested in really exploring any of them though after Saric fell out of favor. In short expecting Saric and TJD to fill the Bogut, Pechulia, Bjelica role was disappointing.

Signing Joseph didn't really make much sense to me with CP3 onboard and he became truly redundant with Podziemski showing out.

In short:

Steph -> Steph
Draymond -> Draymond
Klay -> Klay but he really needs to be replaced.
Barnes -> Wiggins but he played abysmal this year.
Iguodala -> CP3? Kuminga?
Bogut -> Saric, TJD

Aside from Steph and Draymond who are also declining due to age I didn't see good enough fits with the model this year. With Klay and Wiggins performing so far below expectations maybe it is even a positive surprise the team had the record that it did.
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Re: There's a proven blueprint for success. So why didn't the Dubs follow it? 

Post#87 » by Warriorfan » Wed Jul 3, 2024 7:03 pm

We need more mid sized long armed switchable d players.

I like bringing on Hield and Anderson but why Melton when we have GP2.
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Re: There's a proven blueprint for success. So why didn't the Dubs follow it? 

Post#88 » by WarriorGM » Sat Jul 6, 2024 4:35 am

Warriorfan wrote:We need more mid sized long armed switchable d players.

I like bringing on Hield and Anderson but why Melton when we have GP2.


NIce of you to bump. I was planning to update this thread.

GPII hasn't been too reliable minutes wise so I think it kind of makes sense to have Melton.

As for the model, I guess it looks something like

Steph -> Steph
Draymond -> Draymond
Klay -> Hield, Melton for 3&D but separated rather than combined all-in-one. Moody if he improves an even better option?
Barnes -> Kuminga? Anderson? Kyle looking to me he might fit as a Livingston too which would also be good.
Iguodala -> Wiggins
Bogut -> Looney, TJD

Hmm, my first impression upon hearing the players settled upon was that they were farther from the model, but after listing it out like this maybe it's a closer fit than I initially thought. Like you say could always use more long athletic wings but the main deviation may still be at center.

The key I think is Kuminga and Moody really needing to fill those Klay and Barnes roles—that and Steph and Draymond not dropping off. Kuminga and Moody are going to be in their 4th year in the league which would be the same as Klay and one more than Barnes in 2015 when Barnes was the same age although Klay was two years older.

With the current hubbub being made by the Franz Wagner contract, one way to look at whether Kuminga deserves something similar is to compare with the Barnes situation in 2015-2016. If Kuminga doesn't outperform Barnes in the coming season I can make the argument to myself that he doesn't deserve such a contract.

Will also need to pay close attention to Wiggins. If he's checked out it's hard to see how to make up for it. If he's dialed in, however, that's a big boost to the team's chances.
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Re: There's a proven blueprint for success. So why didn't the Dubs follow it? 

Post#89 » by Warriorfan » Sat Jul 6, 2024 12:13 pm

While the team added more defenders they need players to step up to be secondary scorer so Curry doesn't have to play extended minutes. Wiggins and Hield have been 20pt scorers in the past and Kuminga can get there.
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Re: There's a proven blueprint for success. So why didn't the Dubs follow it? 

Post#90 » by Crazy-Canuck » Sat Jul 6, 2024 1:04 pm

Warriorfan wrote:While the team added more defenders they need players to step up to be secondary scorer so Curry doesn't have to play extended minutes. Wiggins and Hield have been 20pt scorers in the past and Kuminga can get there.


If no trades are made, the secondary scorer will be jk. He's the only one outside of steph/klay that gets play run for them. I think kerr implements more iso and post ups for jk this year while the others space the floor.

They need to find out if he's going to be worth the 200+ million extension. He needs the reps to know what to do when teams pack the paint or when there's a rim protector.
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Re: There's a proven blueprint for success. So why didn't the Dubs follow it? 

Post#91 » by Warriorfan » Sat Jul 6, 2024 4:47 pm

Crazy-Canuck wrote:
Warriorfan wrote:While the team added more defenders they need players to step up to be secondary scorer so Curry doesn't have to play extended minutes. Wiggins and Hield have been 20pt scorers in the past and Kuminga can get there.


If no trades are made, the secondary scorer will be jk. He's the only one outside of steph/klay that gets play run for them. I think kerr implements more iso and post ups for jk this year while the others space the floor.

They need to find out if he's going to be worth the 200+ million extension. He needs the reps to know what to do when teams pack the paint or when there's a rim protector.


Problem JK doesn't create space and goes against motion offense. If he was a better rebounder Matrix (Shawn Marrion) like put backs, lobs, and 2nd chances scores off misses is what I think Kerr envisions.
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Re: There's a proven blueprint for success. So why didn't the Dubs follow it? 

Post#92 » by WarriorGM » Wed Oct 16, 2024 6:20 am

After 5 preseason games I have to say the roster doesn't seem as far off from the blueprint as I was expecting and am pretty hopeful.

I now have it something like

Steph -> Steph
Draymond -> Draymond, Kyle Anderson
Klay -> Hield, Melton for 3&D but separated rather than combined all-in-one.
Barnes -> Moody, Kuminga
Iguodala -> Wiggins
Bogut -> Looney, TJD

Moody has looked very good in these preseason games. If he can look just as good the rest of the season that plugs some of the biggest blueprint holes. Much of the attention has been centered on Kuminga but Moody's development might end up being a more important barometer just because of how much better he appears to fit. Looney looking good is also a big improvement from where we were from last year. If Wiggins is really back too then we're really talking. Current estimates I'm hearing I think are pretty low. The upside from the current talk of barely a playoffs team or mid 40s win team I think can be fairly big.
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Re: There's a proven blueprint for success. So why didn't the Dubs follow it? 

Post#93 » by Sandy333 » Wed Oct 16, 2024 2:45 pm

The phenominal generational success that dubs had had has changed the league and other teams approach. Everybody shooting better. Defending better. What worked yesterday maynot work tommorow.
Dubs wasted two years trying to recreate the old magic. They should have come with with a new plan looking at how teams are playing now.
This years team composition and plan seems suspect, defend better( than last year ) and shoot lights out from three. I am looking forward to see how this will translate to in the regular season.
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Re: There's a proven blueprint for success. So why didn't the Dubs follow it? 

Post#94 » by Sandy333 » Wed Oct 16, 2024 2:49 pm

WarriorGM wrote:After 5 preseason games I have to say the roster doesn't seem as far off from the blueprint as I was expecting and am pretty hopeful.

I now have it something like

Steph -> Steph
Draymond -> Draymond, Kyle Anderson
Klay -> Hield, Melton for 3&D but separated rather than combined all-in-one.
Barnes -> Moody, Kuminga
Iguodala -> Wiggins
Bogut -> Looney, TJD

Moody has looked very good in these preseason games. If he can look just as good the rest of the season that plugs some of the biggest blueprint holes. Much of the attention has been centered on Kuminga but Moody's development might end up being a more important barometer just because of how much better he appears to fit. Looney looking good is also a big improvement from where we were from last year. If Wiggins is really back too then we're really talking. Current estimates I'm hearing I think are pretty low. The upside from the current talk of barely a playoffs team or mid 40s win team I think can be fairly big.

Center position is the weakest link and rest doesnot matter so much as chain is only as strong as the weakest link. Having said that, one can still say our strengths can potentially exploit the weaknesses in rival teams armour more than they exploit our weakness.
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Re: There's a proven blueprint for success. So why didn't the Dubs follow it? 

Post#95 » by WarriorGM » Thu Oct 17, 2024 12:30 am

Sandy333 wrote:
WarriorGM wrote:After 5 preseason games I have to say the roster doesn't seem as far off from the blueprint as I was expecting and am pretty hopeful.

I now have it something like

Steph -> Steph
Draymond -> Draymond, Kyle Anderson
Klay -> Hield, Melton for 3&D but separated rather than combined all-in-one.
Barnes -> Moody, Kuminga
Iguodala -> Wiggins
Bogut -> Looney, TJD

Moody has looked very good in these preseason games. If he can look just as good the rest of the season that plugs some of the biggest blueprint holes. Much of the attention has been centered on Kuminga but Moody's development might end up being a more important barometer just because of how much better he appears to fit. Looney looking good is also a big improvement from where we were from last year. If Wiggins is really back too then we're really talking. Current estimates I'm hearing I think are pretty low. The upside from the current talk of barely a playoffs team or mid 40s win team I think can be fairly big.

Center position is the weakest link and rest doesnot matter so much as chain is only as strong as the weakest link. Having said that, one can still say our strengths can potentially exploit the weaknesses in rival teams armour more than they exploit our weakness.


Center has traditionally been the weakest link on Warriors teams. Bogut even on the original championship team was replaced by Draymond when it really got serious and that is still the plan at that position. Or maybe that's what you're talking about? Draymond is no longer a reliable replacement at center? If it's just Looney filling in at the Bogut spot I'm more sanguine about it since in 2022 Looney did that and the team was still able to win a championship. Looney coming back and looking good is a potentially big improvement that's not getting a lot of notice.
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Re: There's a proven blueprint for success. So why didn't the Dubs follow it? 

Post#96 » by WarriorGM » Thu Oct 17, 2024 12:44 am

I was just listening to a Warriors podcast and the guys on it were concerned that there were too many players that deserved playing time and that the front office should have expended more effort to consolidate talent in a trade. To me that ultimately sounds silly. If you keep winning you don't care. If you are losing it means the players aren't as deserving of playing time as you thought.

The Warriors have historically won with a strength in numbers approach aside from the KD years. One could argue they lost in the years they had to cater to certain players' egos. The blueprint suggests the approach the team has adopted is fine.
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Re: There's a proven blueprint for success. So why didn't the Dubs follow it? 

Post#97 » by cladden » Thu Oct 17, 2024 7:16 am

WarriorGM wrote:I was just listening to a Warriors podcast and the guys on it were concerned that there were too many players that deserved playing time and that the front office should have expended more effort to consolidate talent in a trade. To me that ultimately sounds silly. If you keep winning you don't care. If you are losing it means the players aren't as deserving of playing time as you thought.

The Warriors have historically won with a strength in numbers approach aside from the KD years. One could argue they lost in the years they had to cater to certain players' egos. The blueprint suggests the approach the team has adopted is fine.


Just out of curiosity? Which Warriors podcast? Always on the lookout for new pods.
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Re: There's a proven blueprint for success. So why didn't the Dubs follow it? 

Post#98 » by WarriorGM » Thu Oct 17, 2024 7:20 am

cladden wrote:
WarriorGM wrote:I was just listening to a Warriors podcast and the guys on it were concerned that there were too many players that deserved playing time and that the front office should have expended more effort to consolidate talent in a trade. To me that ultimately sounds silly. If you keep winning you don't care. If you are losing it means the players aren't as deserving of playing time as you thought.

The Warriors have historically won with a strength in numbers approach aside from the KD years. One could argue they lost in the years they had to cater to certain players' egos. The blueprint suggests the approach the team has adopted is fine.


Just out of curiosity? Which Warriors podcast? Always on the lookout for new pods.


It was the Light Years podcast. Not terribly happy with the choices out there to be honest. It's been slim pickings from what I can tell.
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Re: There's a proven blueprint for success. So why didn't the Dubs follow it? 

Post#99 » by Warriorfan » Fri Oct 25, 2024 4:36 am

One game in no great secondary scorer but a more 3pt shooters and Curry acts more of a classic distributer. More defenders so better 3 pt defense and guards who can rebound mitigates lack of size in trying to dictate style
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Re: There's a proven blueprint for success. So why didn't the Dubs follow it? 

Post#100 » by WarriorGM » Sat Oct 26, 2024 11:49 pm

Warriorfan wrote:One game in no great secondary scorer but a more 3pt shooters and Curry acts more of a classic distributer. More defenders so better 3 pt defense and guards who can rebound mitigates lack of size in trying to dictate style


Two games in and Hield actually looks like a great scorer although mainly on threes and in transition. Curry becoming more of a distributor again is actually an interesting change. During the KD years I thought Curry at times became too much of a wall flower but the years when he takes on less of a scoring role have tended to be years with some of the most successful teams.

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