SunsRback4Good wrote:grumpysaddle wrote:Ghost of Kleine wrote:
It's definitely fitting man!
As Ishbia and Jones are managing to drag this franchise to Hell in record time with their incredibly impetuous and shortsighted moves. Although I do sometimes also miss seeing your Steve Brule avatar as it reminds me of our unfortunate luck in seemingly always cycling through owners with similar intellectual brilliance and ingenuity!....lol
Did we just become best friends?
I heard GOK has over 10k friends on Facebook.
The Official 2024 Offseason Thread
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Kolek would be a great addition to this team. Pass 1st PG is our biggest need. It'd be better if he was a little more able to hold up defensively, but still. Great fit.
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Ghost of Kleine wrote:SunsRback4Good wrote:grumpysaddle wrote:Did we just become best friends?
I heard GOK has over 10k friends on Facebook.
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Slim Charless wrote:Kolek would be a great addition to this team. Pass 1st PG is our biggest need. It'd be better if he was a little more able to hold up defensively, but still. Great fit.
yeah! When you're in our situation is like ours, with really no alternative pivoting options and being forced into this one razor-thin margin for error, getting ANY decent cost controlled quality players when you have no assets is definitely a bonus and just overall smart strategy. But it's also pretty clear that Jones and Ishbia lack any measurable level of vision and foresight to even postulate on alternative plans. You definitely stand a much better chance of getting a solid contributor that can impact different aspects of the game for you and outplay their contract value than you can from a bottom-tier vet min scrub.
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Ghost of Kleine wrote:Slim Charless wrote:Kolek would be a great addition to this team. Pass 1st PG is our biggest need. It'd be better if he was a little more able to hold up defensively, but still. Great fit.
yeah! When you're in our situation is like ours, with really no alternative pivoting options and being forced into this one razor-thin margin for error, getting ANY decent cost controlled quality players when you have no assets is definitely a bonus and just overall smart strategy. But it's also pretty clear that Jones and Ishbia lack any measurable level of vision and foresight to even postulate on alternative plans. You definitely stand a much better chance of getting a solid contributor that can impact different aspects of the game for you and outplay their contract value than you can from a bottom-tier vet min scrub.
Hopefully Ish realizes this and doesn't trade our future more then he already has.
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Spoiler:
Unnecessary novels aside...just look at second little blurb of bullet points YOU wrote. It says your draft pick seven years out is frozen. The pick swaps owed are two, four, and six years out. The argument is pretty much DOA right there. You see the Suns themselves talking about trading their '31 1st (seven years out), so that should be another clue that it's not affected. Should probably end the post there, but...
If you want technical verbiage, here's an excerpt from the CBA itself on the NBPA website:
Spoiler:
I realize the reporting out there is confusing on what it means for something to "start after the '23/'24 season," as some things do obviously apply right now for the off-season (no contract aggregation for trades, etc). But in the case of frozen/penalized draft picks, it is determined at the last game of the regular season (so the last game of '24/'25 season), which would mean that the first application of frozen draft picks would occur for '32 draft picks (check out the bolded example). And that only means it can't be traded, it doesn't get penalized and moved to the end of the round until you're in the 2nd apron for two more of the next 4 years.
Re: Around the NBA - 23-24 Other playoff series
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Ghost of Kleine wrote:
In this video, at around 1:47 seconds in, Booker is asked if he believes (the current roster under Ishbias' strategy) the Suns actually have enough talent to win a championship!! AND he honestly doesn't sound too enthused or confident in our current situation to achieve that goal. Now the reason that I bring this up is for the relevance of recent discussions and rumors of Booker potentially wanting out of Phoenix, whether that's to a better situation (in terms of depth and assets) like New York, or possibly another team in contention or close to it with much better depth and stability to achieve the goal of a championship.
I really can see it as a reasonable possibility that IF we have another disappointing outcome next season (which we will)!! And fall short of the finals and a championship, Booker will begin voicing his displeasure with our situation and want out. KD of course will likely make his demands heard on this too likely being the first to issue a trade demand rather than wasting his final years not "realistically" competing for a championship, but just treadmilling. But the bigger concern is Booker's infatuation and the infectious traits of KD's mercenarial perspective being absorbed by and now emulated by Booker wherein if KD gets frustrated and asks out, Booker will likely follow suit copying his idol.
So indirectly, due to Ishbias' very impulsive and shortsighted decisions may unintentionally begin our rebuild within the next two years with other teams still holding the value of our picks over the coming 7-8 years. Really the only consolation for us is that once Ishbia and Jones give away our 2022 and 2031 picks, The league institutes a more severe version of the Stepian rule in which they actually will freeze that 2032 pick to protect a franchise from terrible idiotic ownership decisions. I can honestly say that we clearly have the 2nd reiteration of Ted Stepian in Ishbia who treats our franchise like his fantasy league hobby, which is very fitting considering how much time he actually spends in fantasyland instead of actual reality!
We have to be one of the only old teams ever, who, after getting swept in a first round, are thinking about how we have enough talent right now to win a championship. It's ridiculous that people talk about it. We hardly even looked like a contender most of the season.
Re: The Official 2024 Offseason Thread
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Based on what I'm seeing since the press conference there really aren't any available coaches unless we see some blockbuster trades in the off season.
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Re: The Official 2024 Offseason Thread
dremill24 wrote:Spoiler:
Unnecessary novels aside...just look at second little blurb of bullet points YOU wrote. It says your draft pick seven years out is frozen. The pick swaps owed are two, four, and six years out. The argument is pretty much DOA right there. You see the Suns themselves talking about trading their '31 1st (seven years out), so that should be another clue that it's not affected. Should probably end the post there, but...
If you want technical verbiage, here's an excerpt from the CBA itself on the NBPA website:Spoiler:
I realize the reporting out there is confusing on what it means for something to "start after the '23/'24 season," as some things do obviously apply right now for the off-season (no contract aggregation for trades, etc). But in the case of frozen/penalized draft picks, it is determined at the last game of the regular season (so the last game of '24/'25 season), which would mean that the first application of frozen draft picks would occur for '32 draft picks (check out the bolded example). And that only means it can't be traded, it doesn't get penalized and moved to the end of the round until you're in the 2nd apron for two more of the next 4 years.
Example: If Team A is a Second Apron Team for the 2024-25 Salary Cap
Year, then it would be prohibited from trading its 2032 first round draft pick
(i.e., its first round draft pick in the first NBA Draft that occurs following the
seventh Season that follows the Season occurring within such Salary Cap Year).
If Team A is also a Second Apron Team for the 2025-26 and 2028-29 Salary
Cap Years, then Team A’s 2032 first round draft pick would be subject to a
Draft Pick Penalty.
So from this information that you shared, and how it's worded though complex and somewhat convoluted, I'm seeing what you're saying. With the key point being..................its first-round draft pick in the first NBA Draft that occurs following the seventh Season that follows the Season occurring within such Salary Cap Year).
You were 100% correct and I was clearly wrong about the swaps penalties and should've looked deeper at the CBA details from the source rather than that article. I think the confusion for me was from trusting the wording of that sporting news article's bullet points from the link with it saying:
What are the penalties for the second apron?
All of the penalties for the first apron apply to the second apron as well, which is triggered when a team's salary exceeds $182.5 million. For the 2023-24 season, one additional penalty is added when crossing the second apron:
No access to the $5 million taxpayer midlevel exception
Starting at the end of the 2023-24 season, even more restrictions will be added to the second apron. These include:
- Teams cannot use a trade exception generated by aggregating the salaries of multiple players
- Teams cannot include cash in a trade
- Teams cannot use a trade exception generated in a prior year
- First-round picks seven years out are frozen (unable to be traded)
- A team's first-round pick is moved to the end of the first round if they remain in the second apron for three out of five seasons
The article from that link obviously ends there without going into further/complete detail per the actual CBA information. And the other confusion for me was in the "if they remain a 2nd apron team for 3 out of 5 seasons" because when you're looking at their total allocated team salaries for 2023-2024 season, and heading into the 2024-2025 season as well, it has us as being over that $190 million threshold. And then obviously in the following years, you'd have KDs' extension, along with Books' supermax adjustment and Beals' 57 million player option, as well as Allens' new deal added and O'neales' too keeping us above the 2nd apron level. But again, that's me overthinking the simple details that you just shared from the cba that define your point. But thank you again for correcting me on that man. And sharing with me the correct and accurate information from the source itself. I'll have to do much better hopefully going forward.
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TeamTragic wrote:Based on what I'm seeing since the press conference there really aren't any available coaches unless we see some blockbuster trades in the off-season.
I was kind of hoping for the Kings to go a different direction from Mike Brown per the earlier reports out there saying they didn't decide if they wanted to bring him back after they flamed out in the play-in tournament. He did help them orchestrate their high-end league-leading offensive schemes. I mean he has won coach of the year honors before and has 4 championships from his time with San Antonio and also with the Golden State Warriors too. And of course maybe David Joerger as a defensive assistant too.
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Ghost of Kleine wrote:
You think this was what Flex was alluding to when he said there was a "scenario".
I mean would Harden address our issues?
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Lindsey Smith (PHNX) and Aaron Edwards in a short 6-7 minute video discuss the tough questions around our teams' offseason.
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Slim Charless wrote:Kolek would be a great addition to this team. Pass 1st PG is our biggest need. It'd be better if he was a little more able to hold up defensively, but still. Great fit.
No it's not. That is unless you move Booker or Beal. He probably will help us in the future but our biggest priority by far is another nasty big that wants to rebound and play defense.
A new head coach could solve the point guard issue.
If we have a legit big available to us as a free agent, I am all for Kolek.
We cannot go into next season with Nurkic and Drew as our bigs. Bol Bol is either a SG or SF.
The real problem is having these three guys in the starting lineup
Booker
Beal
Allen
We are far too small.
We could not get a rebound to save our soul last year when really needed to.
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TeamTragic wrote:Ghost of Kleine wrote:
You think this was what Flex was alluding to when he said there was a "scenario".
I mean would Harden address our issues?
It's definitely possible? It wouldn't shock me too much either considering Hardens' recent connection with KD in Brooklyn and willingness to team up in order to form super teams. Although I'm not exactly sure how this would work to get Harden here. Sure they mention that he's an unrestricted free agent, BUT do people really believe he'd be willing to sign here on a minimum? Or could it possibly become a sign-and-trade with LA somehow getting Beal in a swap? With Beal, I'm just not sure he'd agree to that trade. But all things considered, I'd think I'd prefer Harden for his playmaking and willingness to shoot a lot of threes! And Balmer is one owner who likely wouldn't balk at Beals' salary either!
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Beal for Bum Simmons would put us under the 2nd apron within a year. KD expires in 2026 and we’d have a ton of cap space. Just a thought.
fromthetop321 wrote:I got Lebron number 1, he is also leading defensive player of the year. Curry's game still reminds me of Jeremy Lin to much.
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DirtyDez wrote:Beal for Bum Simmons would put us under the 2nd apron within a year. KD expires in 2026 and we’d have a ton of cap space. Just a thought.
This premise has been discussed a bit on here by a few people, and I for my part find it an intriguing idea for various reasons.
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Ghost of Kleine wrote:Desertfox wrote:Revived wrote:
I have a strong feeling Tobias Harris or Ben Simmons are gonna somehow end up on the Suns by season start next season. I know Simmons is under contract on an awful contract and all but still somehow I feel like it could still happen.
That’s gonna be our big addition which will propel us into championship contenders! Other 26 teams in the league will be trembling in fear.
Simmons on the vet min would actually fit the team as a small ball PF/PG that can defend and needs zero shots. Would need a C that can shot 3s though. Would be a way to get off Beal's contract if the Suns could convince him to waive the NTC. Beal would work in BKN as we know Booker was great with the twins.
I love that you can see the Beal for Simmons/ Schroder (change) type exchange with Brooklyn too. Like I mentioned earlier, it's basically a really bad (perceived) contract for contract exchange. The incentive for Brooklyn is that at least Beal could offer significant production for his $13 million more salary difference, and would actually play sometimes and is somewhat of a star-level player looking for a bigger role anyways, which actually makes him a good fit in Brooklyn alongside Cam Thomas because they're hungry to be more competitive and make the playoffs to offset the value exchange of the picks they gave up to Houston in the Harden deal. So the incentive is definitely there! And with Beal, they'd have a very potent offensive backcourt of Beal/Thomas that Bridges and Johnson could easily play off of. Then if they just resign Claxton, they'd have a very productive and potent balanced roster to compliment there offensive backcourt of Beal and Thomas with their solid defensive wings in Bridges/ Finney Smith, and solid defensive forwards in Claxton and Clowney too.
Lastly, with them having our picks, the idea of them swapping out Beal as a legit star-level contributor, for Simmons would be a very enticing premise as we'd be swapping a player with actual impact/production, for a player that might not even play again. escalating the potential value of our picks they hold. These factors seem much more appealing than alternatively just letting Simmons expire and trying to use the cap space to target players in free agency with no guarantees. I do however envision Simmons more in a Draymond Green type of role to mitigate his lack of shooting, and try to maximize his elite defense and playmaking at the 3/4 possibly even 5 position. I wonder if you see the possibilities in such a role as defensive/playmaking jumbo wing/forward with multipositional defensive and playmaking potential. Unconventional, but possibly very effective in giving Simmons a role in which he'd be comfortable in not having offensive pressure on him.
** And during that role term, he'd increase the size of our frontline playing alongside KD at 6'11 similar to a role that Mcdaniels played for Minnesota, but with less shooting prominence. At absolute worst, I think value could be pulled having him operate as a 6'11 jumbo defensive wing that also could help handle the ball competently and pass too.
That's exactly what I'm thinking, Simmons just fits a lot of the holes the team has and doesnt need to shot which the team has plenty off. And if it doesnt work? Well he is a giant expiring contract and the team will need to rebuild anyways. Its as good as we will get.
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DirtyDez wrote:Beal for Bum Simmons would put us under the 2nd apron within a year. KD expires in 2026 and we’d have a ton of cap space. Just a thought.
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