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The (way too early) 2024 Draft thread. Woo! Tanking!

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Re: The (way too early) 2024 Draft thread. Woo! Tanking! 

Post#1761 » by payitforward » Wed May 8, 2024 4:20 pm

NatP4 wrote:...Still want to trade Kuzma for another mid/late lottery pick to get a guy like Pacome Dadiet who is going to continue to skyrocket up the board. Holmes at #26....

Me too.

There are 2 points of view about this kind of issue, & a person can argue the merits of either one.

E.g. nate has chimed in pretty often that he doesn't like the idea of developing too many rookies at the same time. It's perfectly possible to make a rational case for that idea.

OTOH, in the end, basketball is overwhelmingly a talent-dominated sport. Individual players' core abilities (which, obviously, require development) are more important by far than anything else. & there are really only 2 ways to add talent: through the draft or by signing a FA.

Occasionally it happens via a trade, but it's not common -- NBA GMs are professionals. Trades are more about roster balance or solving situational issues at the team level.

It's also hard to get significantly better by signing FAs. If you're the lucky team that lands a star that way, great. But... it doesn't happen often.

For a team in the position we're in -- just beginning to rebuild, extremely low on talent, with no short-term expectations of success -- it seems obvious to me that the more draft picks you have, the more likely it is that you'll acquire talent.

My point is not about trading down to add picks, at least not in particular. That's a situational decision.

But this team really could not go wrong by adding another pick this year. Or next year. Or the following year. Etc. & whatever anyone thinks, rightly or wrongly, about the top of this year's draft, overall it looks to be, & is likely to be, as deep as any other draft -- & deeper than some.
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Re: The (way too early) 2024 Draft thread. Woo! Tanking! 

Post#1762 » by SUPERBALLMAN » Wed May 8, 2024 4:52 pm

payitforward wrote:
NatP4 wrote:...Still want to trade Kuzma for another mid/late lottery pick to get a guy like Pacome Dadiet who is going to continue to skyrocket up the board. Holmes at #26....

Me too.

There are 2 points of view about this kind of issue, & a person can argue the merits of either one.

E.g. nate has chimed in pretty often that he doesn't like the idea of developing too many rookies at the same time. It's perfectly possible to make a rational case for that idea.

OTOH, in the end, basketball is overwhelmingly a talent-dominated sport. Individual players' core abilities (which, obviously, require development) are more important by far than anything else. & there are really only 2 ways to add talent: through the draft or by signing a FA.

Occasionally it happens via a trade, but it's not common -- NBA GMs are professionals. Trades are more about roster balance or solving situational issues at the team level.

It's also hard to get significantly better by signing FAs. If you're the lucky team that lands a star that way, great. But... it doesn't happen often.

For a team in the position we're in -- just beginning to rebuild, extremely low on talent, with no short-term expectations of success -- it seems obvious to me that the more draft picks you have, the more likely it is that you'll acquire talent.

My point is not about trading down to add picks, at least not in particular. That's a situational decision.

But this team really could not go wrong by adding another pick this year. Or next year. Or the following year. Etc. & whatever anyone thinks, rightly or wrongly, about the top of this year's draft, overall it looks to be, & is likely to be, as deep as any other draft -- & deeper than some.



Yeah I really like Dadiet as well, and I’d love him at 26. I’ve brought him up a couple times. And yes we don’t want to have to develop too many rookies at once, Dadiet could certainly stay in Europe for another year before we bring him here as we did with Vukcevic.
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Re: The (way too early) 2024 Draft thread. Woo! Tanking! 

Post#1763 » by NatP4 » Wed May 8, 2024 5:56 pm

We had about 3200 minutes that need replacing with the departure of (likely)Tyus Jones and Daniel Gafford. Would expect Butler and Vukcevic to soak up most of those minutes.

About 1300 minutes to Gallinari/Baldwin/Champagnie/Bernard. Those minutes could easily go to another rookie like Dadiet.

1200 minutes went to Holmes/Bagley/Muscala that could go to a rookie C like Clingan/Sarr.

Have a really good situation with the Go-Go where a raw prospect like Dadiet could really benefit, same with a Daron Holmes.

Would love to bring in 3 1st round selected rookies.
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Re: The (way too early) 2024 Draft thread. Woo! Tanking! 

Post#1764 » by payitforward » Wed May 8, 2024 6:04 pm

SUPERBALLMAN wrote:...yes we don’t want to have to develop too many rookies at once....

:)
In 2020, we had the #9 pick (wch we could have used on Tyrese Halliburton) & Chicago's #37 pick (wch could have been used to trade up for Xavier Tillman). In addition, Boston had offered us their #30 pick that year for Bertans. That pick was used to to take Desmond Bane.

Wouldn't that have been a problem? To be forced to develop all three of those rookies -- Tyrese Halliburton, Desmond Bane, & Xavier Tillman -- at the same time?

Not to mention what might have made it worse: imagine that the following year, we'd traded the #31 pick we got in the Aaron Holiday trade for the #34 & 36 pick. OMG, we'd have been forced to develop Cory Kispert, Herb Jones & say Ayo Dosunmu all at once -- with those other 3 guys, who after all would just have been getting started.

Talk about a real mess! With....

Tyrese Halliburton
Desmond Bane
Xavier Tillman
Corey Kispert
Herb Jones
Ayo Dosunmu

...all at once -- what a terrible problem! Right?

& even more frightening, come to think of it suppose we'd traded our #10 pick in '22 for SA's #20 & 25 & taken Walker Kessler & Andrew Nembhard!!?

Can you imagine what a nightmare it would be to have Haliburton, Bane, Tillman, Kispert, Jones, Dosunmu, Kessler, & Nembhard all in their first 3 years in the league...?

But, really, it could have been even worse! I mean what if we'd gone on to add Bilal & Vukcevic -- oh, and Trayce Jackson-Davis at #57.

What a horrible thought. Really. Think about how upset the Wizards FO & coaches would be if we had

Tyrese Halliburton
Desmond Bane
Xavier Tillman
Corey Kispert
Herbert Jones
Ayo Dosunmu
Walker Kessler
Andrew Nembhard
Bilal Coulibaly
Tristan Vukcevic,
& Trayce Jackson-Davis....

I mean.... they would be tearing their hair out; they'd be wailing in dismay.

Not to mention how upset we would be as fans! Really, it would be just awful!
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Re: The (way too early) 2024 Draft thread. Woo! Tanking! 

Post#1765 » by Chocolate City Jordanaire » Wed May 8, 2024 6:34 pm

payitforward wrote:CCJ -- Ken -- it's great to have you back!!! :)
Thanks, pif.

It's good to be alive!

It's great to have stability.

This board is like a first love for me. I'm excited about this draft. It's fun reading what everyone has to say.

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Re: The (way too early) 2024 Draft thread. Woo! Tanking! 

Post#1766 » by nate33 » Wed May 8, 2024 6:57 pm

NatP4 wrote:We had about 3200 minutes that need replacing with the departure of (likely)Tyus Jones and Daniel Gafford. Would expect Butler and Vukcevic to soak up most of those minutes.

About 1300 minutes to Gallinari/Baldwin/Champagnie/Bernard. Those minutes could easily go to another rookie like Dadiet.

1200 minutes went to Holmes/Bagley/Muscala that could go to a rookie C like Clingan/Sarr.

Have a really good situation with the Go-Go where a raw prospect like Dadiet could really benefit, same with a Daron Holmes.

Would love to bring in 3 1st round selected rookies.

It's hard to look at it this way. You have to account for some of Gafford's minutes being taken by Bagley and Holmes. And you have to factor that Kispert and Deni will go from 23 and 28 minutes a game to something more like 27 and 33 respectively.

It's probably easiest just to start from scratch. There are 19,800 minutes available (counting a handful of overtimes).

Deni: 2700
Kuzma: 2400
Poole: 2400
Kispert: 2300
Coulibaly: 1800
Bagley: 1600
Vukcevic: 1400
Butler: 1200
Holmes: 800

That's 16,600 already
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Re: The (way too early) 2024 Draft thread. Woo! Tanking! 

Post#1767 » by NatP4 » Wed May 8, 2024 7:19 pm

Right, and Kuzma would be going out, so that’s 2400 minutes to give to rookies. Obviously, if we pick Clingan or Sarr, we aren’t giving 2400 combined minutes to Holmes/Bagley.

I’d say we can easily develop 3 rookies with 4800 minutes up for grabs.

Hoping for Topic/Dadiet/Holmes. Topic starts day 1 and plays 2000ish minutes, other two probably play a combined 2000 NBA minutes at most.
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Re: The (way too early) 2024 Draft thread. Woo! Tanking! 

Post#1768 » by NatP4 » Wed May 8, 2024 7:53 pm

Read on Twitter
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Re: The (way too early) 2024 Draft thread. Woo! Tanking! 

Post#1769 » by pcbothwel » Wed May 8, 2024 8:55 pm

NatP4 wrote:
Read on Twitter


Hard not to take that swing. Elite Measurables, tools, age, bloodlines... really good motor and competitiveness.

The age thing is real. At the same age Sarr will be stepping on an NBA court, Holmgren was putting up mediocre stats against Alcorn St, Utah Tech, and Tarleton St.
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Re: The (way too early) 2024 Draft thread. Woo! Tanking! 

Post#1770 » by DCZards » Wed May 8, 2024 9:12 pm

NatP4 wrote:
Read on Twitter

Outstanding defender with the quickness to recover and block shots when he gets beaten off the dribble.

High motor, fights for rebounds; only needs to get stronger.

I hope Sarr is a Zard next season.
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Re: The (way too early) 2024 Draft thread. Woo! Tanking! 

Post#1771 » by J-Ves » Wed May 8, 2024 11:42 pm

pcbothwel wrote:
NatP4 wrote:
Read on Twitter


Hard not to take that swing. Elite Measurables, tools, age, bloodlines... really good motor and competitiveness.

The age thing is real. At the same age Sarr will be stepping on an NBA court, Holmgren was putting up mediocre stats against Alcorn St, Utah Tech, and Tarleton St.

Sarr has a good motor? That’s actually my main knock against him. On the other hand I’d rate Holland’s motor as great and he also has youth on his side as well as good to great tools. Drafting a true big is probably slightly more valuable than a wing in this instance though
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Re: The (way too early) 2024 Draft thread. Woo! Tanking! 

Post#1772 » by NatP4 » Wed May 8, 2024 11:59 pm

I see a great motor and a better feel for the game than I initially thought in rewatching Sarr. Actually somewhat like the Evan Mobley comparison.
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Re: The (way too early) 2024 Draft thread. Woo! Tanking! 

Post#1773 » by The Consiglieri » Thu May 9, 2024 1:39 am

nate33 wrote:
dckingsfan wrote:Whereas Deni has shown that he will be a starter, I don't think we have seen that from Bilal quite yet (arguable though).

Given his development so far and what we know about his work ethic, I think it's a pretty sure thing that Bilal will develop into at least a Jaden McDaniels tier 3&D wing who is excellent with the "D" part at at least passable with the "3" part. That's good enough to be a starter.

His ceiling is much higher, depending on how well he learns to shoot and how much off-the-dribble game he develops. I have no idea where that will pan out.


If we end up seeing what I suspect, that that the team has a similar trendline as the previous rebuild (implode in '08, attempt to qualify for playoffs in '13-'14 after botching what should have been year 1 of the rebuild ('09 draft), so basically 4-5 years if its ideal, but we all know we're starting from behind in a tougher lottery environment, though a similar idiotic decision which intiated the wrong footed starting of the rebuild. That's part of what I'm after, Bilal could be relevant, Deni could be relevant, both should be, as either building blocks or trade pieces, but it does have me wondering when people reference Kispert as a complimentary part of the rebuild, what they see happening?

Kispert is a '99, he'll be 27 or 28 when we have our first winning season if literally almost everything goes right (of course, if it doesn't, god knows where and when we'll be relevant)....So how relevant is he really? His contract is up after next season when he's restricted, do we trade him? Do we keep him? Do we just let him walk.

I'm curious what people think of the roster, I agree w/the sentiment that right now, it's really almost completely empty of players who will be around during the '27-'28 season and beyond.
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Re: The (way too early) 2024 Draft thread. Woo! Tanking! 

Post#1774 » by dckingsfan » Thu May 9, 2024 4:37 am

J-Ves wrote:
pcbothwel wrote:
NatP4 wrote:
Read on Twitter


Hard not to take that swing. Elite Measurables, tools, age, bloodlines... really good motor and competitiveness.

The age thing is real. At the same age Sarr will be stepping on an NBA court, Holmgren was putting up mediocre stats against Alcorn St, Utah Tech, and Tarleton St.

Sarr has a good motor? That’s actually my main knock against him. On the other hand I’d rate Holland’s motor as great and he also has youth on his side as well as good to great tools. Drafting a true big is probably slightly more valuable than a wing in this instance though

Seems like Kel'el Ware is the prototype no motor guy :)
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Re: The (way too early) 2024 Draft thread. Woo! Tanking! 

Post#1775 » by Dat2U » Thu May 9, 2024 10:58 am

After seeing him mocked at #1 and apparently a top 5 lock to most .... I went back and spent some time looking at Stefon Castle's tape to see what I may have missed.

I still don't see it. What position does he play? I see a position-less role player. Not ideal on the ball but functional. I see a guy who goes his own speed (not a bad thing) and constantly probes. He' a solid decision maker on the ball with good court vision but not really creative handle or passer - which is why I see him off the ball in the NBA. His best attribute is probably his frame as he could easily carry 220 LBs. Guys bounce off of him on drives. He doesn't create much separation outside of his frame but in college he didn't need too.

Excellent in transition. Got a eurostep he loves to pull out on drives. Strong finisher IMO due to craftiness & build.

Castle's shooting form looks very inconsistent. It's got a hitch and it's not fluid at all ... meaning it's not an easily repeatable stroke. He shot 28% on all jumpers and 29% on open jumpers; 24% on pull-ups. Now this is on fairly low volume but also speaks to the hesitancy to take these shots - as confidence in your shot is half the battle. It's also concerning he can't make the open shots.

The only thing that gives you real hope is the FT% at 75 which isn't great but indicates he at least has some touch.

His defense is his calling card and what gets him rotation minutes in the NBA right away. Whether off the ball or on the ball, the awareness and attention to detail is there. He's also disciplined with good lateral quickness. He has the chance to be elite on that end.

Comparables: Alex Caruso with better handle or Marcus Smart. I didn't include Jimmy Butler or Kawhi as alot of people have. Why? Because most of Jimmy & Kawhi's development was after they came into the league. It's very hard to assume a prospect will follow the same path post draft as Jimmy & Kawhi have. That development path is in top #1 of NBA players and far outside of norm.

Overall I see Castle as a fringe lottery pick based on him being a ++defender early in his career I think he'd be solid late lottery pick in most years. I would not consider him in the top 5 ... it feels like a reach.
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Re: The (way too early) 2024 Draft thread. Woo! Tanking! 

Post#1776 » by Benjammin » Thu May 9, 2024 11:31 am

Dat, most of the draft boards have Holland around ten. What do you see in him that makes you so high on him? Thanks!
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Re: The (way too early) 2024 Draft thread. Woo! Tanking! 

Post#1777 » by doclinkin » Thu May 9, 2024 1:13 pm

The Consiglieri wrote:If we end up seeing what I suspect, that that the team has a similar trendline as the previous rebuild (implode in '08, attempt to qualify for playoffs in '13-'14 after botching what should have been year 1 of the rebuild ('09 draft), so basically 4-5 years if its ideal, but we all know we're starting from behind in a tougher lottery environment, though a similar idiotic decision which initiated the wrong footed starting of the rebuild. That's part of what I'm after, Bilal could be relevant, Deni could be relevant, both should be, as either building blocks or trade pieces, but it does have me wondering when people reference Kispert as a complimentary part of the rebuild, what they see happening?

Kispert is a '99, he'll be 27 or 28 when we have our first winning season if literally almost everything goes right (of course, if it doesn't, god knows where and when we'll be relevant)....So how relevant is he really? His contract is up after next season when he's restricted, do we trade him? Do we keep him? Do we just let him walk.


In the new CBA it makes sense to re-sign your young productive players. Kispert is a role-playing wing without a great handle or defense, but has been improving marginally in the areas where he was deficient and is a useful offensive piece in the right line-ups. We are nowhere near thinking about championship anything or how to build for the future. I'd say we have exactly one piece right now that is worth anything: Deni. His contract is such a nice value and he has not yet attracted enough attention, that it would be difficult to trade him for anything equivalent.

Everything else is projection and potential, or pieces and role-players at best. Vuk might be a nice stretch 4/5 if he can learn to play defense. Signs suggest he's trending better, while still being bad on that side of the ball. Still, swift improvement in his year overseas bodes well that he may eventually be a useful NBA player. Bilal has length and defensive instincts and can hit an open shot, but does nothing else at an NBA level except remain unrattled. We have a handful of castoffs from other teams who have shown flashes of being better than their stats or reputation, but nothing consistent.

Our best hope is in the arsenal of picks we are accumulating, and the developmental focus of our front office. Hard to say we are even 4-5 years away when some of our biggest assets may be the '28 and '30 pick swaps with the depleted Suns. In this year's draft I expect to pick one developmental talent, and one playable young role-player. Possibly another draft-and-stash candidate. Our front office suggests they select for the combination of upside (athleticism + length) and work ethic more so than finished products who put up solid stats. Anybody we add this year won't contribute towards wins. Not this year, but hopefully by the end of their rookie contracts.

Ultimately we are probably looking to build around next year's lotto pick, plus the guy in the year after. Those two years have some high-end talent that scouts have tabbed for a long time, with a few possible super-novas. So we may be 2 years away from thinking about a 4 year plan. We are realistically looking at a 10 year arc of hauling the nets for draft talent, and developing it into something like a perennial contender. More so than a 4 year plan of a 1st round playoff exit. Unless we strike really unpredictably lucky in these early picks. OR the guys we already have improve way beyond a reasonable projection. In any case, young players are cheap, and we figure to skew young, with a majority of our team on rookie contracts at some point.

But you have to spend at least 90% of the cap to benefit from the kickbacks from those in lux tax hell. No team can afford to pass up that free revenue. The heart of our cap spending is in Kuz on a nice declining contract, and Poole on a negative value deal. And we are talking to teams about trading Kuz for prospects and picks. So: younger and cheaper. We will probably have to eat a few high dollar deals to make the numbers work, but you still need to fill out a team. One that tries, with good chemistry, good work ethic, whatever the record. An eye towards constant improvement.

Kispert is a solid team guy. Plays a useful role. Is a fine add-in on another trade when you have him under contract, and actually has been improving in the one area where he'd fit best. He's a nice size at Guard if his defense and ballhandling allow you to play him there. His D will never be outstanding, but his handle and playmaking show signs. As a key player on a losing team he won't attract unmatchable offers in free agency. You match them, keep him, play him, listen for trades. Same thing we do with every player we draft over this next stretch, until we land the star that's worth building around. Develop them into something useful, play them, listen for trades that fit the timeline or that will work well next to the star of stars.
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Re: The (way too early) 2024 Draft thread. Woo! Tanking! 

Post#1778 » by nate33 » Thu May 9, 2024 1:27 pm

J-Ves wrote:Sarr has a good motor? That’s actually my main knock against him. On the other hand I’d rate Holland’s motor as great and he also has youth on his side as well as good to great tools. Drafting a true big is probably slightly more valuable than a wing in this instance though

Yeah, Sarr's motor is good. He looks like he actually cares out there. His weakness is that he shies away from contact a bit, but it's not due to lack of effort or energy. He moves around a lot and tries to be where he is supposed to be defensively.
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Re: The (way too early) 2024 Draft thread. Woo! Tanking! 

Post#1779 » by nate33 » Thu May 9, 2024 1:35 pm

Dat2U wrote:Comparables: Alex Caruso with better handle or Marcus Smart. I didn't include Jimmy Butler or Kawhi as alot of people have. Why? Because most of Jimmy & Kawhi's development was after they came into the league. It's very hard to assume a prospect will follow the same path post draft as Jimmy & Kawhi have. That development path is in top #1 of NBA players and far outside of norm.

Overall I see Castle as a fringe lottery pick based on him being a ++defender early in his career I think he'd be solid late lottery pick in most years. I would not consider him in the top 5 ... it feels like a reach.

That's about where I place him too. He is Marcus Smart. Smart went #6 in a better draft (2014) and was probably about the 9th best player in his draft class. (Ahead of him, I have Jokic, Embiid, Randle, Capela, Gordon, Bogdanovic, Grant and Lavine.)

If you can land a Marcus Smart clone at #4 or #5 in this draft, that's not bad. I'm not necessarily sold on him as our pick, but I don't hate it either.
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Re: The (way too early) 2024 Draft thread. Woo! Tanking! 

Post#1780 » by DCZards » Thu May 9, 2024 1:37 pm

I never quite get the frequent suggestions that the Zards need to trade Kispert. Yes, he’s far from an all-around talent. But very few NBA players are.

Kispert’s play, particularly on the off-season end, has steadily improved, especially his ability to take people off the dribble. On top of that, a high volume 3pt shooter who shoots 40% is a real weapon. You don’t easily move on from someone like that.

Good teams are made up of diverse pieces and talents. I think Corey can be one of those pieces.

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