Jokic is not the best in the world, and has been heavily overrated (NOW YOU CAN CHANGE VOTES)

[jigga_man]

[mcmurphy]

This thread keeps on giving, this is why I love the General Board. People doubling down on their hot takes is so funny.


This nonsense again. It was a great carry job by LeBron, but his Cavs weren't "basically G league quality players". Sure, they were very limited offensively, but it was a really excellent defensive team and LeBron back then wasn't quite defensive player he was in his prime. Among his teammates were Ilgauskas, who was in the league for a total of 13 years and earned 125 mln. in salaries, Drew Gooden, who was in the league for 14 years, Larry Hughes, who spent 14 total years in the league and earned 85 mln. in total, Varejao, who was in the league for 14 years and earned 84 mln, etc. Even Sasha Pavlovic, the closest one to a "scrub" among their main rotation guys that year, was in the league for 10 years.

That team is worse than the Nuggets this year, last year, and the year that Jokic when to the WCF. You can throw accomplishments all you want, the only one who was a former all star was Ilguaskas, who was way past his prime. Well yeah they were a good defensive team, that's why the made the finals, but as you know you need to also score the ball, and facilitate.

Could Lebron have taken that Cavs team to the finals in the west?

would be sweeped in first round by SAS (as in Finals)

[Roger Murdock]

Let’s not compare teams in 2007 to now. NBA was far less talented. Having duds for rotation players like Sasha Pavlovich and Drew Gooden was normal. Even on some of the most stacked teams total duds played big minutes - Diop started on those Mavericks teams, Nazr Mohammed on the Spurs, etc

Those Cavs had two free series against the Wizards and Nets. Hell Embiid might have made it to the ECF if that was his competition

[Swish1906]

I've been saying this since his first mvp. He's an incredible system player, but he lacks competitive fire and toughness to be an ATG player. His MVP as a 6 seed will be locked at as THE worst mvp season in history. It'll make the Rose and Nash wins seem unanimous.

Jokic is a guy that needs a superstar like Murray to make his game work. He can't take over without that second punch on the perimeter the way other ATGs could. Now that Murray has been exposed, so has Jokic. What's funny is that those really watching told you this year's ago when he only got the sixth seed without him.

To me he is the third best player in the NBA - Luka and Embiid are comfortably ahead of him. Last year he took advantage of an injured field, and a weakened conference in a transition year. He had Murray playing like a superstar and to his credit got it done. But his awards don't match his greatness and in a few years everyone will come around to what I'm saying here right now.

[bledredwine]

Okay,

So if Jokic isn't the best,
then who is? Just so I can educate myself

Is it Embiid? Jimmy Butler?

[lessthanjake]

Jokic has been incredible so far in the playoffs, and it has further bolstered his case for being the best player in the world and amongst the highest peaks ever. I’d urge some caution to people wanting to take a victory lap here based on the last few games though. The Nuggets haven’t won the series yet and the Timberwolves are a very good team. NBA series can turn on a dime (as we already saw in this series), and it is completely plausible that the Timberwolves win the series still. And even assuming the Nuggets win the series, the next two rounds are going to be against really tough teams (especially the Celtics, who the Nuggets probably wouldn’t even be favorites against—if you cross-reference the Nuggets odds of winning the West and their odds of winning the title, it suggests they have essentially exactly a 50% chance of winning the Finals if they make it there). And if he doesn’t win both of those he will get criticized for failing to win the title. In other words, things are not at all secure in terms of what the consensus takeaway from these playoffs is for Jokic, and I think people acting like they are after Game 5 might be as much prisoner of the moment as people criticizing Jokic after Game 2.

[EmpireFalls]

Let’s not compare teams in 2007 to now. NBA was far less talented. Having duds for rotation players like Sasha Pavlovich and Drew Gooden was normal. Even on some of the most stacked teams total duds played big minutes - Diop started on those Mavericks teams, Nazr Mohammed on the Spurs, etc

Those Cavs had two free series against the Wizards and Nets. Hell Embiid might have made it to the ECF if that was his competition

It’s getting really hard to compare eras on here especially roster building.

I vividly remember in 2011-12 how the playoffs were one of the lowest scoring in decades, how no one had truly figured out spacing yet, etc. and it’s only 10 years on from that and we’re talking about a lineup with Murray, Gordon, MPJ and KCP as “non all stars” - I’d comfortably take that lineup over any supporting cast that anyone had in 2007.

[Iwasawitness]

Original cavs has 22 ppg all defensive caliber player, who shrink with lebron as anybody else.
Original cavs has a center who is selected for all-star two years before.
Original cavs faced old pistons (53 no 1 seed) , worn nets(41) and washington(41) to the way of finals.
That year east historically bad, even pistons can't get in play-off in that year if they were playing in west.

Stop with this nonsense. Just stop. I disagree with the person you're responding to but your retort is borderline insanity.

Larry Hughes didn't shrink, nor was he was a 22 PPG all defensive caliber player with LeBron. He had numerous injury issues and could not physically play at the same level that he did in Washington. If that version of him was on the Nuggets he wouldn't be getting minutes.

Z did in fact get selected for an all star spot in 2005. But by 2007 he wasn't that player anymore. His past injuries were catching up to him to the point where running down to one side of the court was a struggle for him at times.

The Pistons weren't an all time great team by any means but they were still very clearly better than the Cavaliers that year. Let's not try to diminish LeBron's accomplishment by pretending there wasn't a clear gap between the two teams. What he did was incredible and it deserves to be acknowledged.

And if we're really going to go off the record of the teams... at least LeBron faced a 50 win team. You wanna know who didn't face a 50 win team during their finals run? Jokic last year.

The OP and anyone who keeps agreeing with it are comical, but let's stop with these dog **** takes.

[bbms]

HA ha ha hahahahah ha ha ahhahahaha

thanks for it

[tsherkin]

Curry is most obviously a system player,

Again, though, no. That's wrong.

If you choose to call him a system player, the term loses its meaning because that would mean EVERY star ever is a system player. Which is pointless.

[Zadeh]

Original cavs has 22 ppg all defensive caliber player, who shrink with lebron as anybody else.
Original cavs has a center who is selected for all-star two years before.
Original cavs faced old pistons (53 no 1 seed) , worn nets(41) and washington(41) to the way of finals.
That year east historically bad, even pistons can't get in play-off in that year if they were playing in west.

Stop with this nonsense. Just stop. I disagree with the person you're responding to but your retort is borderline insanity.

Larry Hughes didn't shrink, nor was he was a 22 PPG all defensive caliber player with LeBron. He had numerous injury issues and could not physically play at the same level that he did in Washington. If that version of him was on the Nuggets he wouldn't be getting minutes.

Z did in fact get selected for an all star spot in 2005. But by 2007 he wasn't that player anymore. His past injuries were catching up to him to the point where running down to one side of the court was a struggle for him at times.

The Pistons weren't an all time great team by any means but they were still very clearly better than the Cavaliers that year. Let's not try to diminish LeBron's accomplishment by pretending there wasn't a clear gap between the two teams. What he did was incredible and it deserves to be acknowledged.

And if we're really going to go off the record of the teams... at least LeBron faced a 50 win team. You wanna know who didn't face a 50 win team during their finals run? Jokic last year.

The OP and anyone who keeps agreeing with it are comical, but let's stop with these dog **** takes.

Last year only one team in the west who was past 50 except Nuggets. As usual west is stacked last year.

Phoenix has KD and booker,

Lakers has Ad and lebron.

Minnesota has Edwards, Kats, conley and gobert .

Who has playing that teams (pistons, nets and wizards) in 2007 ? Big names maybe but fading times of them.

Which one was in his prime ? Best player of that teams wasnt playing. (Arenas)

Could you say any of 2007 teams(wizards, nets, pistons) are better than opponents of nuggets last year ?

Even minnesota can easily beat any of that teams with last year rotation.

[TacoLord]

It's funny seeing this thread was started by a Mavs fan. Luka is fat and doughy, and is just a few Supersized meals away from reaching Zion territory. He was so gassed at the end of that last game, and it looked like his conditioning was not up to NBA standards. They were very close to taking a 3-1 commanding lead, but he didn't have the energy to finish it off. Might cost them the series too, but we shall see.

Jokic on the other hand makes everything look effortless, smooth and some of the highest efficiency we have ever seen. Clearly the best player in the league, clearly able to carry his team to victory, and destroy his opponents. Dude still gets underrated by people around here, despite winning 3 of the last 4 MVPs.

[___Rand___]

The question is what happened to the TWolves' defense that made Jokic look over-rated? Easy answer is the whistle.

[Hoopz Afrik]

“Jokic should have an asterisk for never beating Embiid in the playoffs” is right up there with “pets to games” and “he piston himself” for all time most laughable posts here.

Right. Literally one of the most ridiculous things I've ever seen on this forum. The more homeboy carries the water for Joel, the worse he makes Joel look.

[Hsker4Life]

This thread keeps on giving, this is why I love the General Board. People doubling down on their hot takes is so funny.

Jokic never took a team like the original LeBron Cavs to the finals. That was basically G league quality players and LeBron. Jokic could never.

This nonsense again. It was a great carry job by LeBron, but his Cavs weren't "basically G league quality players". Sure, they were very limited offensively, but it was a really excellent defensive team and LeBron back then wasn't quite defensive player he was in his prime. Among his teammates were Ilgauskas, who was in the league for a total of 13 years and earned 125 mln. in salaries, Drew Gooden, who was in the league for 14 years, Larry Hughes, who spent 14 total years in the league and earned 85 mln. in total, Varejao, who was in the league for 14 years and earned 84 mln, etc. Even Sasha Pavlovic, the closest one to a "scrub" among their main rotation guys that year, was in the league for 10 years.

That team is worse than the Nuggets this year, last year, and the year that Jokic when to the WCF. You can throw accomplishments all you want, the only one who was a former all star was Ilguaskas, who was way past his prime. Well yeah they were a good defensive team, that's why the made the finals, but as you know you need to also score the ball, and facilitate.

And they played in an incredibly weak Eastern conference.

[SunsLyf3]

I've been saying this since his first mvp. He's an incredible system player, but he lacks competitive fire and toughness to be an ATG player. His MVP as a 6 seed will be locked at as THE worst mvp season in history. It'll make the Rose and Nash wins seem unanimous.

Jokic is a guy that needs a superstar like Murray to make his game work. He can't take over without that second punch on the perimeter the way other ATGs could. Now that Murray has been exposed, so has Jokic. What's funny is that those really watching told you this year's ago when he only got the sixth seed without him.

To me he is the third best player in the NBA - Luka and Embiid are comfortably ahead of him. Last year he took advantage of an injured field, and a weakened conference in a transition year. He had Murray playing like a superstar and to his credit got it done. But his awards don't match his greatness and in a few years everyone will come around to what I'm saying here right now.

You alright? Lost internet access? Buried head in sand?

[GrandTheftRondo]

40-7-13 on 75 TS% and zero turnovers tonight against the DPOY. The Nuggets went from 0-2 to leading the series 3-2.

It's time for Jokic's haters to crawl back into their holes.

But don't be sad! Here, I found one video to cheer you up:

Watch on YouTube

A banged up Embiid still is far more athletic than Jokic who continued to torch people offensively in the playoffs.

It’s funny how that’s the line that keeps getting trotted out about Embiid.

It’s been clear since his first playoff run that he simply doesn’t read the game well enough or have the mental toughness to excel in a playoff environment.

Jokic on the other hand has GOAT level bball IQ and has never had any fear in a playoff series in his career.

[Ice Man]

The question is what happened to the TWolves' defense that made Jokic look over-rated? Easy answer is the whistle.

Pffft. Jokic has the ball all the time this series and is averaging 8 FTs per game. Shaq in 2000 sharing the ball with Kobe got 13 FTs per game through the entire playoffs.

[GrandTheftRondo]

Last I checked Embiid has dominated Jokic and Gobert in the regular season for the last few years. Sure there's the playoffs, but he' always injured. Put up peak Embiid against, peak Jokic and Embiid will win every time.

They don't hang banners for winning random regular season home games.

The post season is a farce. Let's have all the players do an arduous 82 game slog, and then the healthiest team in the league wins. Lame. The game has changed, players are far more overworked than before, you have more than half the playoffs teams suffereing multiple injuries, allowing teams like the Celtics to sleepwalk through the playoffs when they clearly have issues. A healthy team against the Nuggets would be a different story.

The NBA has been ruined by gambling, massive TV deals, and the greedy Adam Silver not giving two **** about player wellbeing, and just relying on whatever this bs is. If you want to do it like that, better to have the NBA playoffs be like the NFL, where it's one and done each round.

Oh my goodness.

Now the post season is a farce because your obsession continues to **** his pants every post season.

This is some of the most absurd rubbish I’ve read.

I don’t think I’ve ever seen anyone go to such absurd lengths to defend a player.

[Roger Murdock]

“Jokic should have an asterisk for never beating Embiid in the playoffs” is right up there with “pets to games” and “he piston himself” for all time most laughable posts here.

Right. Literally one of the most ridiculous things I've ever seen on this forum. The more homeboy carries the water for Joel, the worse he makes Joel look.

By far the best player Embiid has ever beaten in the playoffs is Siakem

Jokic might face Embiid in the playoffs if Embiid asks out and ends up on a 7-seed western conference team