Jokic is not the best in the world, and has been heavily overrated (NOW YOU CAN CHANGE VOTES)

[Blame Rasho]

Well that is just like your opinion which means nothing.

[DimesandKnicks]

Again, you are making opinion on one game, and one segment. My opininon is not only mine some others share it. Here is Butler's opinion after last year finals

https://www.si.com/nba/nuggets/news/jimmy-butler-gives-honest-answer-about-nikola-jokics-defense

Here is Jokic’s describing himself as an average defender two months ago; about the 3:10 minute mark, “I’m not bad not good I’m in the middle”:

https://youtu.be/ZZF8xVI_Gk8?si=JAxj2N35PAh-vf8i

Some good analysis from some BB experts

Watch on YouTube

This video talk about the entire nuggets offense and is actually highlighting what I’m arguing in terms of the Nuggest defensive schemes; which is particularly more highlighted as this team had both KCP and Bruce Bowen to to fight over screens allowing Jokic to hedge. It also refers to how their defensive schemes works to “protect weak defenders” in reference to Jokic.

I watched this one already and it’s iirc it’s basically saying he isn’t as bad as we think he is because of all the reasons we all agree on.

Watch on YouTube

;t=190s

Watch on YouTube

I’ll watch this later

and some more analysis. For defense in this Minnesota series, game 5 jump on 37:14

Watch on YouTube

Playing drop coverage and getting back to the paint when you’re guarding Gobert isn’t that impressive. He had one possession where he guarded Reid and he got to basket and missed a layup. Another possession he talked about Jokic beating Edwards to a spot like their wasn’t another defender helping off of a non shooter like Daniel’s to help cut off the edge.

It should also be noted that these same “BB experts” made videos about Jokic being a defensive liability and I’d argue u posted one of them. For example;

https://youtu.be/CvNl_LIXhtY?si=F55rLqEXJa2gJrcG
This is a really good one that explores how teams compensate and scheme for weak individual defenders

https://m.youtube.com/watch?si=wvCXeSiOxjLTuZ14&v=XqwTkgj5ORY&feature=youtu.be

Watch on YouTube

;t=75s&pp=ygUkVGhpbmtpbmcgYmFza2V0YmFsbCBtaXNtYXRjaCBodW50aW5n[/quote]

You can say they use good defensive schemes to cover up for his defensive deficiencies as is rim protection or switching on guards, but at the same time they use it for the best use of the things he is the best among all centers in the league and that is great hands - steals and deflections.
He is great at positioning and reading offenses. He doesn't overcommit on drivers on D which leads to some bad rim protection but at the same time he is in position to box-out oposing centers for underrated part of defense and that is defensive rebounding. He doesn't challenge shots at the rim as good as others, but he swipes the balls from drivers while going up. It is all in the videos above.
They like to hide him on defense to give him some time to catch breath because teams try to attack him all the time to make him work on both sides of the court. He is 7th in these playoffs in total distance covered among all players and by far first among centers.
So after you watch videos I posted only reasonable conclusion is that he is not bad defender, far from great, but good to very good is what it is.

For clarity, i don’t consider rebounding a part of someone being a good defender. When I talk about defense I’m talking about the act of stopping the other team from scoring; everything that happens before the ball goes into the air. Thats just me.

You can say they scheme that way to use him best but I think that’s just naive. They scheme that way to put their entire defense in the best position from stopping the other team from scoring while still be able to have an MVP produce on the other side of the ball. If he wasn’t one of the greatest offensive players to play the game, we wouldn’t be lauding him as a defensive specialist. He’s a great overall player and his team schemes for his deficiencies on the other side of ball and he’s solid at being a cog in the defense. But individually he isn’t a talented overall defender.

[AleksandarN]

Again, you are making opinion on one game, and one segment. My opininon is not only mine some others share it. Here is Butler's opinion after last year finals

https://www.si.com/nba/nuggets/news/jimmy-butler-gives-honest-answer-about-nikola-jokics-defense

Here is Jokic’s describing himself as an average defender two months ago; about the 3:10 minute mark, “I’m not bad not good I’m in the middle”:

https://youtu.be/ZZF8xVI_Gk8?si=JAxj2N35PAh-vf8i

Some good analysis from some BB experts

Watch on YouTube

This video talk about the entire nuggets offense and is actually highlighting what I’m arguing in terms of the Nuggest defensive schemes; which is particularly more highlighted as this team had both KCP and Bruce Bowen to to fight over screens allowing Jokic to hedge. It also refers to how their defensive schemes works to “protect weak defenders” in reference to Jokic.

I watched this one already and it’s iirc it’s basically saying he isn’t as bad as we think he is because of all the reasons we all agree on.

Watch on YouTube

;t=190s

Watch on YouTube

I’ll watch this later

and some more analysis. For defense in this Minnesota series, game 5 jump on 37:14

Watch on YouTube

Playing drop coverage and getting back to the paint when you’re guarding Gobert isn’t that impressive. He had one possession where he guarded Reid and he got to basket and missed a layup. Another possession he talked about Jokic beating Edwards to a spot like their wasn’t another defender helping off of a non shooter like Daniel’s to help cut off the edge.

It should also be noted that these same “BB experts” made videos about Jokic being a defensive liability and I’d argue u posted one of them. For example;

https://youtu.be/CvNl_LIXhtY?si=F55rLqEXJa2gJrcG
This is a really good one that explores how teams compensate and scheme for weak individual defenders

https://m.youtube.com/watch?si=wvCXeSiOxjLTuZ14&v=XqwTkgj5ORY&feature=youtu.be

Watch on YouTube

;t=75s&pp=ygUkVGhpbmtpbmcgYmFza2V0YmFsbCBtaXNtYXRjaCBodW50aW5n

You can say they use good defensive schemes to cover up for his defensive deficiencies as is rim protection or switching on guards, but at the same time they use it for the best use of the things he is the best among all centers in the league and that is great hands - steals and deflections.
He is great at positioning and reading offenses. He doesn't overcommit on drivers on D which leads to some bad rim protection but at the same time he is in position to box-out oposing centers for underrated part of defense and that is defensive rebounding. He doesn't challenge shots at the rim as good as others, but he swipes the balls from drivers while going up. It is all in the videos above.
They like to hide him on defense to give him some time to catch breath because teams try to attack him all the time to make him work on both sides of the court. He is 7th in these playoffs in total distance covered among all players and by far first among centers.
So after you watch videos I posted only reasonable conclusion is that he is not bad defender, far from great, but good to very good is what it is.

For clarity, i don’t consider rebounding a part of someone being a good defender. When I talk about defense I’m talking about the act of stopping the other team from scoring; everything that happens before the ball goes into the air. Thats just me.

You can say they scheme that way to use him best but I think that’s just naive. They scheme that way to put their entire defense in the best position from stopping the other team from scoring while still be able to have an MVP produce on the other side of the ball. If he wasn’t one of the greatest offensive players to play the game, we wouldn’t be lauding him as a defensive specialist. He’s a great overall player and his team schemes for his deficiencies on the other side of ball and he’s solid at being a cog in the defense. But individually he isn’t a talented overall defender.[/quote]

You do know that you could be a good defender that have weaknesses. Heck even the greatest defenders in the NBA has weaknesses. Also how is defensive rebounding not a part of being a good defender? If your team can’t end a defensive possession because of giving up offensive rebounds then your team is not a good defense.

[Blame Rasho]

You wanna know something, I seen ATGs get called overrated various times on the boards since I been posting here. It basically says, you made it when trolls actively make threads you bring you down.

[Impuniti]

He doesn't protect the rim is the only part where you were close. He is not good rim protector would be closer. The rest is wrong

You’re entitled to your opinion. But if it was right than his coach wouldn’t put his team in a zone or have him defend the least effective offensive player on the opposite team when the Wolves play two dynamic offensive players in their front court. It’s not a matter of a few moments, it’s a matter of the coach looking at whose on the floor and deciding that what was best for his team was to put his 6”11 C on a not shooting SF as opposed to having him defend Reid.

Again, you are making opinion on one game, and one segment. My opininon is not only mine some others share it. Here is Butler's opinion after last year finals

https://www.si.com/nba/nuggets/news/jimmy-butler-gives-honest-answer-about-nikola-jokics-defense

Some good analysis from some BB experts

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

;t=190s

Watch on YouTube

and some more analysis. For defense in this Minnesota series, game 5 jump on 37:14

Watch on YouTube

So, Nuggets had 8th best defense in regular season, 2nd best in the cluch (3rd best last season) 7th best in playoffs despite some terrible losses, always have better defense with Jokic on the floor than off, but hey they played zone with Jokic guarding McDaniels. Is it all you have? Some times it takes more than watching someone play in few games to form resonable opinnion.

https://www.pbpstats.com/wowy-combos/nba?TeamId=1610612743&Season=2023-24&SeasonType=Playoffs&PlayerIds=203999&OnlyCommonGames=true

Nuggets defense in the playoffs
113.5 - Jokic on
107.4 - Jokic off


The offense is cratering on a legendary level without him however, which supports the eye test when you see how poor Murray has been.

[Special_Puppy]

You’re entitled to your opinion. But if it was right than his coach wouldn’t put his team in a zone or have him defend the least effective offensive player on the opposite team when the Wolves play two dynamic offensive players in their front court. It’s not a matter of a few moments, it’s a matter of the coach looking at whose on the floor and deciding that what was best for his team was to put his 6”11 C on a not shooting SF as opposed to having him defend Reid.

Again, you are making opinion on one game, and one segment. My opininon is not only mine some others share it. Here is Butler's opinion after last year finals

https://www.si.com/nba/nuggets/news/jimmy-butler-gives-honest-answer-about-nikola-jokics-defense

Some good analysis from some BB experts

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

;t=190s

Watch on YouTube

and some more analysis. For defense in this Minnesota series, game 5 jump on 37:14

Watch on YouTube

So, Nuggets had 8th best defense in regular season, 2nd best in the cluch (3rd best last season) 7th best in playoffs despite some terrible losses, always have better defense with Jokic on the floor than off, but hey they played zone with Jokic guarding McDaniels. Is it all you have? Some times it takes more than watching someone play in few games to form resonable opinnion.

https://www.pbpstats.com/wowy-combos/nba?TeamId=1610612743&Season=2023-24&SeasonType=Playoffs&PlayerIds=203999&OnlyCommonGames=true

Nuggets defense in the playoffs
113.5 - Jokic on
107.4 - Jokic off


The offense is cratering on a legendary level without him however, which supports the eye test when you see how poor Murray has been.

Come on man. You can't be seriously citing playoff on/off with that small of a sample

[Impuniti]

Again, you are making opinion on one game, and one segment. My opininon is not only mine some others share it. Here is Butler's opinion after last year finals

https://www.si.com/nba/nuggets/news/jimmy-butler-gives-honest-answer-about-nikola-jokics-defense

Some good analysis from some BB experts

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

;t=190s

Watch on YouTube

and some more analysis. For defense in this Minnesota series, game 5 jump on 37:14

Watch on YouTube

So, Nuggets had 8th best defense in regular season, 2nd best in the cluch (3rd best last season) 7th best in playoffs despite some terrible losses, always have better defense with Jokic on the floor than off, but hey they played zone with Jokic guarding McDaniels. Is it all you have? Some times it takes more than watching someone play in few games to form resonable opinnion.

https://www.pbpstats.com/wowy-combos/nba?TeamId=1610612743&Season=2023-24&SeasonType=Playoffs&PlayerIds=203999&OnlyCommonGames=true

Nuggets defense in the playoffs
113.5 - Jokic on
107.4 - Jokic off


The offense is cratering on a legendary level without him however, which supports the eye test when you see how poor Murray has been.

Come on man. You can't be seriously citing playoff on/off with that small of a sample

We can always add to the sample size

23, champ season

112.1 = Jokic on
106.0 = Jokic off

[lessthanjake]

Whether those guys are good defenders is dependent on whether those things they do well ultimately result in them having significant positive impact overall defensively. In the case of Jokic, his many defensive strengths demonstrably result in him having significant positive impact overall defensively, so he is a good defender.

He’s bad at too many things that significantly impact his team and the way they play defense to be considered a “good” defender.

He doesn’t protect the rim, he isn’t a good post defender, he can’t defend in space. He has elite hands and is an elite rebounder but as an actual defender it looks like he has to many flaws that the team’s defense has to scheme around. In game 6 during the 3rd quarter when Reid and Kat were on front court they went to a combination of a zone or putting Jokic on Jaden Mcdaniels. At one point in time Jokic pointed to MPJ to guard Big Kat so he could defend Jaden Mcdaniels. “Good defenders” don’t hide on the other teams worst offensive player.

These are your entirely subjective opinions on how to weigh Jokic’s strengths and weaknesses, and your conclusions are contrary to the data.

And, by the way, while Jokic isn’t really the prime example of this, actually yes, good defenders do often get “hidden” on bad offensive players. This is because basketball players are not video game players with fatigue toggled off. They have a finite amount of energy they can expend before their performance decreases—even for the best conditioned players. So when you have a player that has to carry the offense, their team often tries to conserve their energy on that side of the ball by “hiding” them on defense. And opposing offenses very often try to prevent them from doing that by trying to bring the other team’s best offensive player into a lot of actions, even when that opposing player is a good defender. It’s why it’s often really stupid when people criticize a star player’s defense because they were getting “targeted.” They’re often just being “targeted” to tire them out. Anyways, that’s just an aside about a general phenomenon rather than being specific to Jokic.

Losing in the second round is not “nearly identical success” as making the Finals. Which is why people talk about LeBron’s team success in 2007 and not in 2006. If you want to say that LeBron “carried” the 2006 Cavs to being a second-round-exit team or to 50 wins, then I’d be more inclined to agree with you, but also you wouldn’t make that point because it wouldn’t be particularly persuasive about anything. What you *are* trying to make a point about is the Cavs making the Finals in 2007, and your point was wrong, so now you’re talking about 2006.

No. The launching point for this conversation iirc was the mention of what Lebron would be able to do with MPJ and Jamal Murray. And I responded with James made it to the finals with scrubs. He played his entire first stint in Cleveland with putrid supporting cast but his teams were still faux title contenders. Maybe, Mike Brown coached them up better in 07 versus of 06 but it doesn’t ignore the fact the the actual talent his played with wasn’t good. And I’d still argue that he carried every team during his cavs stint. If he wasn’t on that team in 06-07 that team might squeak into the playoffs but they don’t make it past the first round. The driving force behind that team, the team the year prior and every subsequent cavs team he played on - was this guy:

Watch on YouTube

;pp=ygUgbGVicm9uIGphbWVzIHBpc3RvbnMgNHRoIHF1YXJ0ZXI%3D

If your position is that the 2006-2007 Cavs would “squeak into the playoffs” without LeBron, then perhaps our positions aren’t that far off. I just don’t think that a supporting cast that’s at that sort of level can be defined as “scrubs,” nor do I think that getting to the Finals in a weak conference with such a team really constitutes “carrying” them. Like, obviously a player of LeBron’s level improves a team a lot! I’m not positing that he didn’t make them better. I am simply saying that the supporting cast was objectively a very solid supporting cast, primarily because they played absolutely elite defense. Without LeBron, I don’t think they’d make the Finals, because their offense would be even worse than it was and that would’ve presumably been too much for even that elite defense to overcome. And without LeBron they surely have a worse playoff seed, so you may well be right that they lose in the first round (though I do think they were absolutely capable of beating the actual first round Wizards team the Cavs faced in reality). If you want to define LeBron as “carrying” them because they wouldn’t have gotten as far without him, then I think we’d have to define the star player of essentially every Finals team in history as having “carried” their team. At which point, it becomes an essentially meaningless label.

[Special_Puppy]

https://www.pbpstats.com/wowy-combos/nba?TeamId=1610612743&Season=2023-24&SeasonType=Playoffs&PlayerIds=203999&OnlyCommonGames=true

Nuggets defense in the playoffs
113.5 - Jokic on
107.4 - Jokic off


The offense is cratering on a legendary level without him however, which supports the eye test when you see how poor Murray has been.

Come on man. You can't be seriously citing playoff on/off with that small of a sample

We can always add to the sample size

23, champ season

112.1 = Jokic on
106.0 = Jokic off

You need 200+ games for on/off to be useful

[Special_Puppy]

https://www.pbpstats.com/wowy-combos/nba?TeamId=1610612743&Season=2023-24&SeasonType=Playoffs&PlayerIds=203999&OnlyCommonGames=true

Nuggets defense in the playoffs
113.5 - Jokic on
107.4 - Jokic off


The offense is cratering on a legendary level without him however, which supports the eye test when you see how poor Murray has been.

Come on man. You can't be seriously citing playoff on/off with that small of a sample

We can always add to the sample size

23, champ season

112.1 = Jokic on
106.0 = Jokic off

You need 200+ games for on/off to be useful

[BelgradeNugget]

Again, you are making opinion on one game, and one segment. My opininon is not only mine some others share it. Here is Butler's opinion after last year finals

https://www.si.com/nba/nuggets/news/jimmy-butler-gives-honest-answer-about-nikola-jokics-defense

Here is Jokic’s describing himself as an average defender two months ago; about the 3:10 minute mark, “I’m not bad not good I’m in the middle”:

https://youtu.be/ZZF8xVI_Gk8?si=JAxj2N35PAh-vf8i

Some good analysis from some BB experts

Watch on YouTube

This video talk about the entire nuggets offense and is actually highlighting what I’m arguing in terms of the Nuggest defensive schemes; which is particularly more highlighted as this team had both KCP and Bruce Bowen to to fight over screens allowing Jokic to hedge. It also refers to how their defensive schemes works to “protect weak defenders” in reference to Jokic.

I watched this one already and it’s iirc it’s basically saying he isn’t as bad as we think he is because of all the reasons we all agree on.

Watch on YouTube

;t=190s

Watch on YouTube

I’ll watch this later

and some more analysis. For defense in this Minnesota series, game 5 jump on 37:14

Watch on YouTube

Playing drop coverage and getting back to the paint when you’re guarding Gobert isn’t that impressive. He had one possession where he guarded Reid and he got to basket and missed a layup. Another possession he talked about Jokic beating Edwards to a spot like their wasn’t another defender helping off of a non shooter like Daniel’s to help cut off the edge.

It should also be noted that these same “BB experts” made videos about Jokic being a defensive liability and I’d argue u posted one of them. For example;

https://youtu.be/CvNl_LIXhtY?si=F55rLqEXJa2gJrcG
This is a really good one that explores how teams compensate and scheme for weak individual defenders

https://m.youtube.com/watch?si=wvCXeSiOxjLTuZ14&v=XqwTkgj5ORY&feature=youtu.be

Watch on YouTube

;t=75s&pp=ygUkVGhpbmtpbmcgYmFza2V0YmFsbCBtaXNtYXRjaCBodW50aW5n

You can say they use good defensive schemes to cover up for his defensive deficiencies as is rim protection or switching on guards, but at the same time they use it for the best use of the things he is the best among all centers in the league and that is great hands - steals and deflections.
He is great at positioning and reading offenses. He doesn't overcommit on drivers on D which leads to some bad rim protection but at the same time he is in position to box-out oposing centers for underrated part of defense and that is defensive rebounding. He doesn't challenge shots at the rim as good as others, but he swipes the balls from drivers while going up. It is all in the videos above.
They like to hide him on defense to give him some time to catch breath because teams try to attack him all the time to make him work on both sides of the court. He is 7th in these playoffs in total distance covered among all players and by far first among centers.
So after you watch videos I posted only reasonable conclusion is that he is not bad defender, far from great, but good to very good is what it is.

For clarity, i don’t consider rebounding a part of someone being a good defender. When I talk about defense I’m talking about the act of stopping the other team from scoring; everything that happens before the ball goes into the air. Thats just me.

You can say they scheme that way to use him best but I think that’s just naive. They scheme that way to put their entire defense in the best position from stopping the other team from scoring while still be able to have an MVP produce on the other side of the ball. If he wasn’t one of the greatest offensive players to play the game, we wouldn’t be lauding him as a defensive specialist. He’s a great overall player and his team schemes for his deficiencies on the other side of ball and he’s solid at being a cog in the defense. But individually he isn’t a talented overall defender.

1. All this started with your claim that he is A BAD DEFENDER. Butler said he isn't. Jokic is modest as always, and he said he is average. No one here backed your claim that he is BAD.

2. First video I posted is called "Does Jokic's genius actually make him a good defender?" In description of defense author says "How good is Nikola Jokic on defense now? This detailed film breakdown & scouting report explores how Jokic uses his basketball IQ and genius in 2024 to overcome his defensive shortcomings, and whether he's still a liability on defense for the Denver Nuggets."
I'm not arguing he doesn't have defensive shortcomings, we all agree on them. Poin is Jokic uses his basketball IQ to overcome his defensive shortcomings which doesn't make him BAD defender as you said, and he is specifiing things he is great at which makes him good overal defender

3. To counter videos I posted you posted older videos from the same author when he questioned Jokic ability to defend good enough to have chanpionship team. You posted video from 2022 when Nuggets were playing against GSW with Campazzo, Moris and Rivers guarding Steph and Barton being help defender behind Jokic. Simple fact that Nuggets schemes didn't work then and were working with KCP, Brown or Braun is a proof that problem was not Jokic but Campazzo, Moris, Rivers and Barton. In one of videos I posted author mentiones how he can't be hunted any more because Nuggets schemes work with Jokic in them. Author mentiones how Jokic himself has improved on D

Nuggets defense in the playoffs
113.5 - Jokic on
107.4 - Jokic off
The offense is cratering on a legendary level without him however, which supports the eye test when you see how poor Murray has been.

4. The fact Nuggets in these playoffs have 107.4 with Jokic off the court which is better than Minnesota defrtg of 108.1 is not proof that Jokic is bad defender but that AG who plays C when Jokic is on the bench is top 3 small-ball center with Green and Bam.

5. Bulls were hiding Jordan on defense in their 2nd championship run with Pippen and Harper taking harder defensive asigments which proves what?

6. I don't know how people can, with strait face, say "For clarity, i don’t consider rebounding a part of someone being a good defender. When I talk about defense I’m talking about the act of stopping the other team from scoring; everything that happens before the ball goes into the air. Thats just me. " Position ends with basket, TO or DEFENSIVE REBOUND. You can force a miss 100 times if you give 100 ofensive rebounds and 1 putback you played **** defense. So def rebounds and boxing-out is integral part of defense. There was time people tought blocks are most important part of defense for centers and were praising block-chasers as good defenders. And then with Hassan Whiteside they realised it is not so simple. US national team played terible defense with JJJ hunting blocks because no on rebounded. Now we know better I guess

[SweaterBae]

For clarity, i don’t consider rebounding a part of someone being a good defender. When I talk about defense I’m talking about the act of stopping the other team from scoring; everything that happens before the ball goes into the air. Thats just me.

You can't score without the ball, and there's a reason that the highest efficiency offenses are frequently the best offensive rebounding teams(see the Greg Oden Trailblazers). Literally the only way you can guarantee the opponent can't score is if they don't possess the ball.

[AleksandarN]

Well that is just like your opinion which means nothing.

[DimesandKnicks]

For clarity, i don’t consider rebounding a part of someone being a good defender. When I talk about defense I’m talking about the act of stopping the other team from scoring; everything that happens before the ball goes into the air. Thats just me.

You can't score without the ball, and there's a reason that the highest efficiency offenses are frequently the best offensive rebounding teams(see the Greg Oden Trailblazers). Literally the only way you can guarantee the opponent can't score is if they don't possess the ball.

I don't really want to have a semantic argumenet which is why I included that qualifier for clarity. I'm talking about a players ability to defend, his capacity as a defender, his proficienty at defending his man and playing help defense. When I say Jokic isn't a "good" defender , these are the aspects of his game that I'm criticing

[dk1115]

I'm 44 pages too late, but I just gotta say..

Jokic is not a system player, he's a system.

[DimesandKnicks]

1. All this started with your claim that he is A BAD DEFENDER. Butler said he isn't. Jokic is modest as always, and he said he is average. No one here backed your claim that he is BAD.

Wrongo, I never said he was a BAD DEFENDER. I don't care what Butler said.

2. First video I posted is called "Does Jokic's genius actually make him a good defender?" In description of defense author says "How good is Nikola Jokic on defense now? This detailed film breakdown & scouting report explores how Jokic uses his basketball IQ and genius in 2024 to overcome his defensive shortcomings, and whether he's still a liability on defense for the Denver Nuggets."
I'm not arguing he doesn't have defensive shortcomings, we all agree on them. Poin is Jokic uses his basketball IQ to overcome his defensive shortcomings which doesn't make him BAD defender as you said, and he is specifiing things he is great at which makes him good overal defender

didn't say he was a BAD defender and I don't think the things he does make up for his shortcomings as a defender, It makes him playable on that end and he's evolved from a defensive liability to an average/solid defender in the right scheme.

3. To counter videos I posted you posted older videos from the same author when he questioned Jokic ability to defend good enough to have chanpionship team. You posted video from 2022 when Nuggets were playing against GSW with Campazzo, Moris and Rivers guarding Steph and Barton being help defender behind Jokic. Simple fact that Nuggets schemes didn't work then and were working with KCP, Brown or Braun is a proof that problem was not Jokic but Campazzo, Moris, Rivers and Barton. In one of videos I posted author mentiones how he can't be hunted any more because Nuggets schemes work with Jokic in them. Author mentiones how Jokic himself has improved on D

No it's proof that putting defenders who are good at fighting over screens empowers Jokic to play drop instead of being forced to defend n the permiter.

6. I don't know how people can, with strait face, say "For clarity, i don’t consider rebounding a part of someone being a good defender. When I talk about defense I’m talking about the act of stopping the other team from scoring; everything that happens before the ball goes into the air. Thats just me. " Position ends with basket, TO or DEFENSIVE REBOUND. You can force a miss 100 times if you give 100 ofensive rebounds and 1 putback you played **** defense. So def rebounds and boxing-out is integral part of defense. There was time people tought blocks are most important part of defense for centers and were praising block-chasers as good defenders. And then with Hassan Whiteside they realised it is not so simple. US national team played terible defense with JJJ hunting blocks because no on rebounded. Now we know better I guess

This is me with a straight face (-____-). For more clairty because that may havae been poorly worded - I'm talking about a players ability to defend his man and play help defense. In response to the bold, no, IMO, you didn't play **** defense..You played great defense...you did a poor job of rebounding. I'venever heaerd anyone accuse a team of playing **** defense for having a bad game on the defensive boards. They'd allege them of not doing a good job of rebounding.

[SweaterBae]

For clarity, i don’t consider rebounding a part of someone being a good defender. When I talk about defense I’m talking about the act of stopping the other team from scoring; everything that happens before the ball goes into the air. Thats just me.

You can't score without the ball, and there's a reason that the highest efficiency offenses are frequently the best offensive rebounding teams(see the Greg Oden Trailblazers). Literally the only way you can guarantee the opponent can't score is if they don't possess the ball.

I don't really want to have a semantic argumenet which is why I included that qualifier for clarity. I'm talking about a players ability to defend, his capacity as a defender, his proficienty at defending his man and playing help defense. When I say Jokic isn't a "good" defender , these are the aspects of his game that I'm criticing

I mean you're picking and choosing your own definition. Defensive rebounding has been a core component of how defensive players have been judged for decades.

[Impuniti]

Come on man. You can't be seriously citing playoff on/off with that small of a sample

We can always add to the sample size

23, champ season

112.1 = Jokic on
106.0 = Jokic off

You need 200+ games for on/off to be useful

Good to know you're full of total nonsense then. Most seasons the team is better when the center is off the court, and you're spouting total bollocks. Continue living in your dream world.

[Special_Puppy]

We can always add to the sample size

23, champ season

112.1 = Jokic on
106.0 = Jokic off

You need 200+ games for on/off to be useful

Good to know you're full of total nonsense then. Most seasons the team is better when the center is off the court, and you're spouting total bollocks. Continue living in your dream world.

Its just a fact that you need hundreds of games for plus-minus data to be useful. Just how it works

[DimesandKnicks]

These are your entirely subjective opinions on how to weigh Jokic’s strengths and weaknesses, and your conclusions are contrary to the data.

If the data is DRAPM than its **** data. Tristan Thompson was one of teh 100 worst defenders on a list of nearly 2,000 players and Deshawn Stevenson was in the bottom 50.

And, by the way, while Jokic isn’t really the prime example of this, actually yes, good defenders do often get “hidden” on bad offensive players. This is because basketball players are not video game players with fatigue toggled off. They have a finite amount of energy they can expend before their performance decreases—even for the best conditioned players. So when you have a player that has to carry the offense, their team often tries to conserve their energy on that side of the ball by “hiding” them on defense. And opposing offenses very often try to prevent them from doing that by trying to bring the other team’s best offensive player into a lot of actions, even when that opposing player is a good defender. It’s why it’s often really stupid when people criticize a star player’s defense because they were getting “targeted.” They’re often just being “targeted” to tire them out. Anyways, that’s just an aside about a general phenomenon rather than being specific to Jokic.

Like Who?
Or the coach is aware that they're deficient defensively and don't want a good offensive player taking advantage of them or the offensive team isn't trying to "tire them out" but are using every precious possession to score and taking advantage or a poor defender to do so.

If your position is that the 2006-2007 Cavs would “squeak into the playoffs” without LeBron, then perhaps our positions aren’t that far off. I just don’t think that a supporting cast that’s at that sort of level can be defined as “scrubs,” nor do I think that getting to the Finals in a weak conference with such a team really constitutes “carrying” them. Like, obviously a player of LeBron’s level improves a team a lot! I’m not positing that he didn’t make them better. I am simply saying that the supporting cast was objectively a very solid supporting cast, primarily because they played absolutely elite defense. Without LeBron, I don’t think they’d make the Finals, because their offense would be even worse than it was and that would’ve presumably been too much for even that elite defense to overcome. And without LeBron they surely have a worse playoff seed, so you may well be right that they lose in the first round (though I do think they were absolutely capable of beating the actual first round Wizards team the Cavs faced in reality). If you want to define LeBron as “carrying” them because they wouldn’t have gotten as far without him, then I think we’d have to define the star player of essentially every Finals team in history as having “carried” their team. At which point, it becomes an essentially meaningless label.

His supporting cast consisted of Larry Hughes, Ilgauskas, Varejo, Eric Snow, Sasha Pavlovic, Damon Jones, Donyell Marshal, and Daniel Gibson. Relative to every other team in the league - these are scrubs. A team of roll players.

The worst team in the East that year featured Paul Piece, with his supporting cast of Al Jefferson, Delonte West, Wally, Ryan Gomes, Tony Allen, Geral Green, Kendrick Perkins, Bassy and Rondo

A team of scrubs can be coached up to play good defense. And again, the year prior they had the same record, if that defense was "carried" that team why didn't they win mor games in the regular season than they did the year prior with a middling defense, especially with Lebron having another year under his belt.