2023-24 NBA Season Discussion

[Mos_Heat]

Nuggets minus Jokic: 56 points, 21/55 from the field.

Nuggets minus Jokic/Murray: 21 points, 8/28 from the field.

People who are going to blame Joker for putting up 35/20 in a loss against an all-time great defensive frontcourt aren't to be taken seriously.

What were his shooting percentages and how did his defense look? It’s absolutely insane how yall hyped up Jokic as being peak Jordan level and then make every excuse for him when he under delivers. You use every single stat to skew in Jokic’s favor. If Westbrook put up these stats, all I would I hear is 13/28 and Westbrook being food on defense. Jokic was GARBAGE on defense, idk what happened to this league for people to completely ignore the defensive side of the game especially at the most important defensive position. Jokic didn’t have a good game. nuggets blew 15 point lead. And NO, wolves aren’t an all time front court, you guys keep trying to make up stuff to make Jokic look better. KAT nor Nas Reid are all time defenders. Jokic got winded, was played physically and got outhustled, simple as that for anyone that watched the game. AND that’s with the refs playing against the wolves too

"Jokic doesn't have enough help" means that he's truly arrived

[Peregrine01]

All these posters in here trying to prop up Jordan or Bron by **** on another player, here's a newsflash: Jordan or Bron don't know who you are or care to know who you are.

[CKRT]

Hopefully people will start giving Gobert his flowers (at least for his play), but alas.

Rudy def deserves his props for the last 2 games. He was awful games 3-5 and looked like one of his defenses were heading the same way after Wolves just had their most dominant defense of the series w/o him game 2. But he really made a big impact these last 2 games. He has a real chance to prove alot of the doubters including me wrong about his playoff viability.

It's interesting, I think Gobert has really set the tone for the Wolves even when he's not on the floor. Finch (I think?) gave Rudy credit for engineering the Wolves entire defensive scheme this year. Hard to really know if that's overstated or not, but it is something to think about and consider. Feels a bit like 'intangibles' or other character driven things to prop a player up, yet also it can't be ignored. I am starting to believe that if you can give Rudy a decent offensive engine and not absolute sieves on defense and you can have a great team.

[bigboi]

All these posters in here trying to prop up Jordan or Bron by **** on another player, here's a newsflash: Jordan or Bron don't know who you are or care to know who you are.

And Jokic doesn’t care about you. We’re on here to discuss basketball, keep it cute. The excuses for Jokic are silly

[Texas Chuck]

All these posters in here trying to prop up Jordan or Bron by **** on another player, here's a newsflash: Jordan or Bron don't know who you are or care to know who you are.

And even if they did, its not zero sum. Jokic being good doesn't make them worse. Tearing Jokic down doesn't make them any better.

It's incredibly stupid and pointless.

[TheGOATRises007]

Deserved win for the Wolves. They were clearly the better team all series.

It'll be interesting to see how Luka/Kyrie do vs that defense.

I'm picking the Wolves in 6. Celtics should roll past Indy in 5.

[Peregrine01]

All these posters in here trying to prop up Jordan or Bron by **** on another player, here's a newsflash: Jordan or Bron don't know who you are or care to know who you are.

And even if they did, its not zero sum. Jokic being good doesn't make them worse. Tearing Jokic down doesn't make them any better.

It's incredibly stupid and pointless.

I was moreso talking about how some of these posters dick-ride to such an extent that they have to put down other players to put their favorites on a pedestal. Cults are an interesting phenomenon of the human condition.

[falcolombardi]

There is no doubt jokic played well, very well even by any absolute metric

But when it comes to evaluating star players good means different thinghs depending on how high we are putting them. Great for edwards is not the same as great for jordan. Greát for towns is not he same as great for jokic. And when you are starting to be put in top ever peaks talks consisntent capital G great is the standard

Lots of jokic weaknesses or not elite aspects showed up this series and is ok to acnowledge that.

The nuggets scored under 100 4 out of 7 times, they were locked down and he himself limited in the final 2 games. Other players wouldnt survive criticism from this data point and have their "ceiling raising" heavily put in doubt. Some of them have multiple all time offense runs and still get it questioned on aesthetic concerns

His scoring tonight came at so-so efficiency and more importantly accompanied by a lack of strong creationg as a lot of his playmaking was passing back to his perimeter guys for a pull up or contested shot as he didnt have an answer to the (fantastic) wolves doubles and helping of the helpers.

Not using or having confidence in his dribblinh more the way offense goat tier wings/guards (lebron, nash, magic) who held up at thwir best vs the best defenses do was an achilles heel in a otherwise seemingly perfected offensive toolkit

his creation was limited to be more garnett esque because of it rarely breaking the defense for easy or open shots

His defense continued being a non factor to dissuade anyone at the rim regardless of what the defensive rebounding does for his boxscore agreggates and advanced metrics

In the past some posters have questioned the actual value of players like luka compared to someone like tatum because luka gawdy stat stuffing didnt come in elite offense. Why would jokic be aytomatically exempt from the same criticism ?

[Colbinii]

Let's go! Down 20!

[Peregrine01]

There is no doubt jokic played well, very well even by any absolute metric

But when it comes to evaluating star players good means different thinghs depending on how high we are putting them. Great for edwards is not the same as great for jordan. Greát for towns is not he same as great for jokic. And when you are starting to be put in top ever peaks talks consisntent capital G great is the standard

I'll push back on this to say that no player is consistently great in every game - that's just an impossible standard to live up to. I think Bron from 2012-2018 came closest but even he had games when he didn't play well.

It's ok to critique a player but I've found this forum to become less enjoyable given how tribal some of these debates are and it's made it less of a place to learn about this sport and to celebrate its best players and more of a place for some posters to get their shots off.

[falcolombardi]

The thingh with jokic this series is mot that he was not good but if we are gonna call him a goat tier offense peak or even the goat offense peak then standards are higher, otherwise we are just loving his skillset/aesthetics instead of results

This series he got great volume numbers and effeciency(not tonight) but the offense constantly resetting because he has to pass it out vs a good defensive team that can rotate well and giving the denver offense 6 seconds to make a bail out shot is not ideal for a goat offense player standard.

Wilt could do that and he is not in any all time offense list

Some of this board propped jokic as it was dome before with curry as a unstoppable next evolution of team offense that is inpervious to rival defenses but the results this year didnt bear that out

Denver doesn’t break 100 points in 4/7 games against a serious defense with a tall frontcourt that commits to doubling him. With KAT who was seen as a defensive liability by many before this year and Reid wasn’t considered a good defender till recently and nobody would have called a jokic stopper before

For peregrine (sorry i kinda forgot how to do quotations without quoting the whole thingh) i get your frustation with agenda ball, but i dont think the criticisms jokic has got are particularly unique or harsh if i am being honest

[bigboi]

The thingh with jokic this series is mot that he was not good but if we are gonna call him a goat tier offense peak or even the goat offense peak then standards are higher, otherwise we are just loving his skillset/aesthetics instead of results

This series he got great volume numbers and effeciency(not tonight) but the offense constantly resetting because he has to pass it out vs a good defensive team that can rotate well and giving the denver offense 6 seconds to make a bail out shot is not ideal for a goat offense player standard.
Wilt could do that and he is not in any all time offense list

Some of this board propped jokic as it was dome before with curry as a unstoppable next evolution of team offense that is inpervious to rival defenses but the results this year didnt bear that out

Denver doesn’t break 100 points in 4/7 games against a serious defense with a tall frontcourt that commits to doubling him. With KAT who was seen as a defensive liability by many before this year and Reid wasn’t considered a good defender till recently and nobody would have called a jokic stopper before

Thank you. We have people saying that this is an all time great defensive front court or this is the best 3 man big man rotation in nba history, that doesn’t make a lick of sense. None of their big men are ATG on offense nor were they even ATG this season on defense. Rudy’s not even in his prime anymore and no one rated neither towns nor naz as defenders prior to this series

[falcolombardi]

The thingh with jokic this series is mot that he was not good but if we are gonna call him a goat tier offense peak or even the goat offense peak then standards are higher, otherwise we are just loving his skillset/aesthetics instead of results

This series he got great volume numbers and effeciency(not tonight) but the offense constantly resetting because he has to pass it out vs a good defensive team that can rotate well and giving the denver offense 6 seconds to make a bail out shot is not ideal for a goat offense player standard.
Wilt could do that and he is not in any all time offense list

Some of this board propped jokic as it was dome before with curry as a unstoppable next evolution of team offense that is inpervious to rival defenses but the results this year didnt bear that out

Denver doesn’t break 100 points in 4/7 games against a serious defense with a tall frontcourt that commits to doubling him. With KAT who was seen as a defensive liability by many before this year and Reid wasn’t considered a good defender till recently and nobody would have called a jokic stopper before

Thank you. We have people saying that this is an all time great defensive front court or this is the best 3 man big man rotation in nba history, that doesn’t make a lick of sense. None of their big men are ATG on offense nor were they even ATG this season on defense. Rudy’s not even in his prime anymore and no one rated neither towns nor naz as defenders prior to this series

Is particularly maddening when runs with actual all time offensive results get questioned for stylistic reasons as having a lower ceiling (lebron cavs second stint being the best example) but it seems like we cannot point out denver offense under performance as a legit criticism

Or somethingh like the criticism luka got for their stat stuffing not translating as well as jokic team wide even though the mavs offense results track with denver fairly well across the years

Which is part of why goat offense talk particularly feels so aesthetic preference based to me instead of results/analysis driven

Not that all time offense can be generated by one man alone, but jokic was harsly without weapons to do better (if he ks to be judged at goat tier level) to do better vs strong defenses than nuggets being essentially locked down 4/7 times

[Peregrine01]

The thingh with jokic this series is mot that he was not good but if we are gonna call him a goat tier offense peak or even the goat offense peak then standards are higher, otherwise we are just loving his skillset/aesthetics instead of results

This series he got great volume numbers and effeciency(not tonight) but the offense constantly resetting because he has to pass it out vs a good defensive team that can rotate well and giving the denver offense 6 seconds to make a bail out shot is not ideal for a goat offense player standard.
Wilt could do that and he is not in any all time offense list

Some of this board propped jokic as it was dome before with curry as a unstoppable next evolution of team offense that is inpervious to rival defenses but the results this year didnt bear that out

Denver doesn’t break 100 points in 4/7 games against a serious defense with a tall frontcourt that commits to doubling him. With KAT who was seen as a defensive liability by many before this year and Reid wasn’t considered a good defender till recently and nobody would have called a jokic stopper before

For peregrine (sorry i kinda forgot how to do quotations without quoting the whole thingh) i get your frustation with agenda ball, but i dont think the criticisms jokic has got are particularly unique or harsh if i am being honest

There are five players on the court and Jokic is one of them so I don't think it's logical to look at how the Nuggets offense got clamped and then infer that it's because of Jokic's shortcomings. Murray had an all-time bad series and MPJ was largely invisible despite taking wide open looks.

At a higher level, I think what you're referring to is more schematic which is where I think Malone could've coached better. Just throwing the ball into the low post is not effective offense anymore (even for a guy like Jokic when he's faced with this frontline) largely because of how much more physical post defenders can be relative to face-up defenders. I would've like to see Nuggets plant Jokic at the nail a lot more and face up so that defenders couldn't just wrestle him away from the rim and also because he could then see the floor better including the weak-side.

Also, doubling one pass away in the post is way less risky and doesn't compromise the defense to the same extent. Jokic had far more success against this Minny defense when he drove to the rim than when he kept trying to post up KAT or Naz Reid with Rudy lurking. I was surprised when the Nuggets didn't make that adjustment given the futility of all the post-ups going into game 7.

[LukaTheGOAT]

The Wolves held the Nuggets 11.2 points below their RS ORTG. That is astonishing.

[Dutchball97]

It was a given Boston would get to the ECF, I've been championing the Wolves to make it to the end the entire play-offs and I was confident the Mavs would make it over the inexperienced Thunder. And then you have the Pacers somehow making it past 2 teams who are way stronger on paper but were devastated by injuries.

You'd figure their luck will run out against the Celtics but I wonder if with Porzingis not ready to start the series, the Pacers might have a chance to outgun the Celtics. Would be one of the craziest unexpected runs ever if they made it to the finals (where they'd lose to the Wolves of course because I still need to be right about them winning the ring so I can gloat about being the best basketball "analyst" on the forum ).

[TheGOATRises007]

The Wolves held the Nuggets 11.2 points below their RS ORTG. That is astonishing.

Hard to think of a more recent comparable dominant defensive showing by a team.

All-time great defense.

[WestGOAT]

There is no doubt jokic played well, very well even by any absolute metric
Lots of jokic weaknesses or not elite aspects showed up this series and is ok to acnowledge that.

his creation was limited to be more garnett esque because of it rarely breaking the defense for easy or open shots

His defense continued being a non factor to dissuade anyone at the rim regardless of what the defensive rebounding does for his boxscore agreggates and advanced metrics

In the past some posters have questioned the actual value of players like luka compared to someone like tatum because luka gawdy stat stuffing didnt come in elite offense. Why would jokic be aytomatically exempt from the same criticism ?

That's what I observed as well in game 7, so I think these points are completely fair. Yea Nugget's role players, such as Gordon and especially MPJ, did not show up on offense. You can even argue that MPJ is not supposed to be a role player offensively with his contract, but that should be considered moot with Edward's subpar performance, especially in the first half. Nuggets actually looked okay before their historic 2nd half-collapse, with Murray rolling and Edwards being cold, and the later was definitely not cause of Jokic' (defense).

Jokic looked way too passive for most of the 3rd quarter, Nuggets didn't have a FG for more than 6 live minutes, GOAT-offensive tier players simply (try to) take over the game. And then some more mediocre play in the 4th when he got outplayed by Naz Reid, despite finally hitting some open 3s. Was hoping for a historic performance by a GOAT-tier player, but that never really came, despite his great box-score.

Credit to Minnesota defense, they definitely look like a historic defense and hope that mainstream media will finally give Gobert the respect he deserves.

[Colbinii]

I think Minnesota is in the running for GOAT defense.

They check all the boxes from a player perspective--ATG rim protector, athletic and long wings who are incredible at ball pressure and navigating screens and incredible size 2-5.

Where the hangup for many, including myself, is their rel defensive rtg not being GOAT level [next tier though]. However, with the variance in today's league, I think it is more difficult to attain the higher-end rel defensive ratings now than in prior eras.

[WestGOAT]

As for Minny, I think it's a clear path to the title. Don't see any team being able to beat this defense...it might be better than the 08 Celts.

I still don't trust their offense, if Porzingis is healthy, Boston should be winning it.