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AleksandarN wrote:AleksandarN wrote:hardenASG13 wrote:
Weren't you the one who started a thread titled "Jokic isn't HIM" after last game? To be honest, he started really slow again last night, and poured it on after it became a blowout.
Yes because through the first two games of this series he wasn’t playing like him. I have no problems criticizing him when he is playing bad. I will praise when him when he plays great.
Hey HardenASG where you at bro?
hardenASG13 wrote:So..........yeahhhh.
I don't want to kick a guy when he's down, and let me preface this by saying Jokic is likely one of the best players in the league right now, if not the best.
BUT........Ya’ll talked so much crap to me and alot of other posters here all year, calling us stupid, unintelligent, not understanding of what we were seeing all because Jokic and Denver (Murray 26/7/6 in last years run) won a title last year.
I tried countless times to point out how weak the competition last year was. Pointed out how nobody Denver beat was as good as Minnesota, OKC, Boston, etc. this season, and thatd this would prove much more than anything last year. And it sure did.
It's not like Jokic is suddenly a bad player because he didn't win the title this year. But I've been told, repeatedly and with incredible smugness all season he was playing the best basketball we've ever seen, that he's comparable to prime LeBron and MJ! So with that, it's not that he didn't win another title, those are hard to win.....it's that he lost in the second round, with homecourt, to a team who had never been to the second round before, and blew a 20 point 2nd half lead to lose convincingly! All against the First quality opponent he faced in the last two years. GOATs dont do that. Post his stats all you want. He had 2 MVP level games out of 7. He wasn't able to take over last night at all, and shot the ball poorly. That godlike passing disappeared vs a good defense that took away alot of the cuts off him where he racks up assists on DHOs. He had a bunch of rebounds last night, mostly in the first half when Minnesota couldn't make a shot. Didn't rebound outside his area really at all, cleans up under the rim on misses. Andre Drummond can do that.
As I've said all along about this GOAT talk all season, it was premature annointing. He's got some flaws for a GOAT. Namely (watch how I do this without just posting a bunch of random advanced stats)
- for a guy who plays outside alot at the top of the key, his handle is weak. He rarely dribbles while covered in the half court, just backs in from the foul line area without facing the defense. That can only get you so far against a quality opponent, especially when your team is relying on you to score and break down the defense.
- As a rebounder, he's an elite position rebounder and great at boxing out, very physical. But he doesn't rebound outside his area (pursuing the ball) very well, and isn't overwhelming getting rebounds in traffic.
- His defense.....ugh. He got burned badly when his guy was crashing in for athletic put back dunks toward the end last night. He is in fact slow on that end, and and not being fast or able to jump high was a problem for him and Denver in this series. They enjoyed the layup line when they got past the perimeter defender/top of the zone like defense Denver resorted to, to try to prevent the layup line at the rim. He's a much worse defender than alot of the GOATs, especially big men, that he's compared to here. Then you have Lebron and MJ who were on a whole different planet than him defensively too.
- Lastly, Winning. They beat 0 quality teams last year (name one if you disagree). Again, we're not crushing him today because he lost in the finals or something. He lost in the second round, vs. a team making it's second round debut, on his homecourt, in embarrassing fashion. This was the first quality opponent faced in the last two seasons, and, gone!
These flaws were pointed out repeatedly by a few posters that didn't mind the arrogant attacks by this sites Jokics supporters all season. For guys to enter the GOAT debate, they need to beat quality playoff opponents repeatedly, show they can take over series repeatedly, be better two way players and quite frankly, look better than that. Doesn't face a defender with a live dribble or have the legs to post up all game (like Shaq). Leadership is questionable (doesn't bring energy, blew a 20 point 2nd half lead in a game 7, at home), and he simply hasn't proved enough to put him in those conversations. That was a rush job, prisoner of the moment stuff, all for beating an injured .500 twolves team last season (Edwards wasn't the same player, minus Reid and Mcdaniels), a Suns team who as we can see isn't/wasn't very good, an old Lakers team who isnt/wasn't very good, and the 8 seed heat, who rode hot shooting and a few injuries (Giannis, Tatum) to a finals they had no business being in. That wasn't a historical accomplishment, and as I've said, many players with 0 rings have beaten better playoff opponents.
He's a great player, but yall annointed him(in a smug, demeaning fashion) wayyy too quickly, which is what myself and a few others have been trying to tell you. 0 playoff series wins against a quality opponent (1 if you count the bubble clippers in front of 0 fans) doesn't make you a GOAT candidate, no matter how many MVPs you have because the analytics said so. He's going to be 30 next year. There are real flaws to his game that a good eye test can see that aren't encompassed when calculating his EPM, LEBRON RAPTOR Rapm score.
Good post. I'm willing to bury the hatchet. Clearly you are a dedicated Nuggets fan which I can respect. Happy you got to experience a chip and hope your family was safe during the tornado warning.Cubbies2120 wrote:eyeatoma wrote:Cubbies2120 wrote:
Show me anyone in the top 10 who has never played with an all-star, all-NBA, or all-D teammate in their career. You can't. Most had the privilege of having 1-2 all-stars in their prime + one or two elite defenders and KG was the "closest" comparison and even he had 2 all-star teammates by their 8th season.
Jokic had Jamal Murray (souped up Jamal Crawford) and MPJ (equal to Tobias Harris) and managed to eeke out a title. It's time for him to demand changes and get a superstar or two around him. Hell, Embiid has been surrounded by 3-4 superstars in his career and hasn't gone even one season without an all-star teammate since what, 2017?
Here are those lies again, Butler wasn't a superstar (only in the playoffs) so I'll give you that. Harden wasn't when he joined the Sixers, Ben Simmons for damn sure wasn't.
Lol at MPJ being TObias Harris. Look at the 3 point attemps and percentages, and then change your take.
It's understandable though. Bad day lol.
Agreed on Butler in terms of impact, it’s only there in the playoffs. But didn’t Harden take a game off the Celtics when Embiid wasn’t available? Can you imagine anyone on Denver winning a game with Jokic unavailable? Like, their offense craters to historic lows.
The Tobias Harris / MPJ comment was moreso directed at their relative value, not play style. MPJ might take more desired shots, but what’s the value when you’re not making any? Time for this clown to quit his podcast and spend time in the gym honing his craft because he (and Jamal) are doing Jokic a disservice by taking up max contracts while playing like bums!
These playoffs should hopefully shine a light on just how truly awful Denver’s roster is around Jokic. KCP is aging out, Murray has been exposed (no injury excuse, I hate that crap because everyone’s hurt this time of year), MPJ is one dimensional, the bench is weak, and Popeye Jones has a tough job ahead of him.
And on that note, congratulations! You got exactly what you wanted and I hope you spend the the next few months happy/happier and those posters leave you alone. Even though you annoy me, it’s all love here brotha!
nikster wrote:hardenASG13 wrote:So..........yeahhhh.
I don't want to kick a guy when he's down, and let me preface this by saying Jokic is likely one of the best players in the league right now, if not the best.
BUT........Ya’ll talked so much crap to me and alot of other posters here all year, calling us stupid, unintelligent, not understanding of what we were seeing all because Jokic and Denver (Murray 26/7/6 in last years run) won a title last year.
I tried countless times to point out how weak the competition last year was. Pointed out how nobody Denver beat was as good as Minnesota, OKC, Boston, etc. this season, and thatd this would prove much more than anything last year. And it sure did.
It's not like Jokic is suddenly a bad player because he didn't win the title this year. But I've been told, repeatedly and with incredible smugness all season he was playing the best basketball we've ever seen, that he's comparable to prime LeBron and MJ! So with that, it's not that he didn't win another title, those are hard to win.....it's that he lost in the second round, with homecourt, to a team who had never been to the second round before, and blew a 20 point 2nd half lead to lose convincingly! All against the First quality opponent he faced in the last two years. GOATs dont do that. Post his stats all you want. He had 2 MVP level games out of 7. He wasn't able to take over last night at all, and shot the ball poorly. That godlike passing disappeared vs a good defense that took away alot of the cuts off him where he racks up assists on DHOs. He had a bunch of rebounds last night, mostly in the first half when Minnesota couldn't make a shot. Didn't rebound outside his area really at all, cleans up under the rim on misses. Andre Drummond can do that.
As I've said all along about this GOAT talk all season, it was premature annointing. He's got some flaws for a GOAT. Namely (watch how I do this without just posting a bunch of random advanced stats)
- for a guy who plays outside alot at the top of the key, his handle is weak. He rarely dribbles while covered in the half court, just backs in from the foul line area without facing the defense. That can only get you so far against a quality opponent, especially when your team is relying on you to score and break down the defense.
- As a rebounder, he's an elite position rebounder and great at boxing out, very physical. But he doesn't rebound outside his area (pursuing the ball) very well, and isn't overwhelming getting rebounds in traffic.
- His defense.....ugh. He got burned badly when his guy was crashing in for athletic put back dunks toward the end last night. He is in fact slow on that end, and and not being fast or able to jump high was a problem for him and Denver in this series. They enjoyed the layup line when they got past the perimeter defender/top of the zone like defense Denver resorted to, to try to prevent the layup line at the rim. He's a much worse defender than alot of the GOATs, especially big men, that he's compared to here. Then you have Lebron and MJ who were on a whole different planet than him defensively too.
- Lastly, Winning. They beat 0 quality teams last year (name one if you disagree). Again, we're not crushing him today because he lost in the finals or something. He lost in the second round, vs. a team making it's second round debut, on his homecourt, in embarrassing fashion. This was the first quality opponent faced in the last two seasons, and, gone!
These flaws were pointed out repeatedly by a few posters that didn't mind the arrogant attacks by this sites Jokics supporters all season. For guys to enter the GOAT debate, they need to beat quality playoff opponents repeatedly, show they can take over series repeatedly, be better two way players and quite frankly, look better than that. Doesn't face a defender with a live dribble or have the legs to post up all game (like Shaq). Leadership is questionable (doesn't bring energy, blew a 20 point 2nd half lead in a game 7, at home), and he simply hasn't proved enough to put him in those conversations. That was a rush job, prisoner of the moment stuff, all for beating an injured .500 twolves team last season (Edwards wasn't the same player, minus Reid and Mcdaniels), a Suns team who as we can see isn't/wasn't very good, an old Lakers team who isnt/wasn't very good, and the 8 seed heat, who rode hot shooting and a few injuries (Giannis, Tatum) to a finals they had no business being in. That wasn't a historical accomplishment, and as I've said, many players with 0 rings have beaten better playoff opponents.
He's a great player, but yall annointed him(in a smug, demeaning fashion) wayyy too quickly, which is what myself and a few others have been trying to tell you. 0 playoff series wins against a quality opponent (1 if you count the bubble clippers in front of 0 fans) doesn't make you a GOAT candidate, no matter how many MVPs you have because the analytics said so. He's going to be 30 next year. There are real flaws to his game that a good eye test can see that aren't encompassed when calculating his EPM, LEBRON RAPTOR Rapm score.
If Murray plays any were close to a real 2nd option they're beating the Wolves so I don't buy the "he only won because he had an easy run" narrative. Your Crushing him today because of your bias. Still trying to diminish the quality of the wolves in your comment.
"You see Jokic is so flawed that when he plays against the best D in the league and his 2nd option disappears he only puts up 29/11/8. So what if he was the best scorer, rebounder and creator all series"
"GOATs" donts do that is such a lazy argument. GOATs fail in all sorts of manners, sometimes spectacularly. Lebron collapsed in 2011, MJ leading a 0.500 won team to back to back first round sweeps, Magics 84 finals that earned him the nickname 'tragic Johnson' etc....
eyeatoma wrote:tsherkin wrote:eyeatoma wrote:He played well, but his poor shooting shows that he wasn't all there.
Partial picture. He was 11/18 inside the arc, 6/7 at the line, and had 19 rebounds (6 of them on the offensive glass). AND he was defending well.I'd say it's probably more a combination of his teammates than him for why they lost obviously, but the internet annointing someone the next GOAT with only 1 chip, and 3 MVPS, where 2 wee heavily contested was just gross.
No it wasn't, you're just bitter that Embiid has a lot of haters due to his availability issues.
I can be bitter about that, and it can still be true that he is not on a goat trajectory. Have the discussion when he has about 4 Chips, not one.
tsherkin wrote:eyeatoma wrote:tsherkin wrote:
Partial picture. He was 11/18 inside the arc, 6/7 at the line, and had 19 rebounds (6 of them on the offensive glass). AND he was defending well.
No it wasn't, you're just bitter that Embiid has a lot of haters due to his availability issues.
I can be bitter about that, and it can still be true that he is not on a goat trajectory. Have the discussion when he has about 4 Chips, not one.
No, the conversation can be had now. Folks don't have to agree with it, but he's done enough that it's fair to begin the talks. Trying to deny that is just non-sensical.
SalsaNchips wrote:Feel like if you went silent for 3 games you lose the ability to talk again on the matter
eyeatoma wrote:His numbers are astronomical, but unless it comes with chips, it's just theoretical.
This run, was a perfect example of why it very difficult to win a chip with him given his inability to defend.
Not to mention as I said, he was very close to only having 1 MVP. When was the last goat, or player in the goat conversation who was so close to losing those MVPs each year?
That's not theoretical, EMbiid was hands down the MVP this year prior to being injured, and 2 years ago, he was head to head with Jokic until after the all-star break.
tsherkin wrote:eyeatoma wrote:His numbers are astronomical, but unless it comes with chips, it's just theoretical.
And? Rings are a function of team play, not individual play. He's as good as anyone else we've ever seen, or better, so having the conversation is valid. Having the conversation and "anointing him as unanimous GOAT" are not the same thing.This run, was a perfect example of why it very difficult to win a chip with him given his inability to defend.
That isn't actually what happened.Not to mention as I said, he was very close to only having 1 MVP. When was the last goat, or player in the goat conversation who was so close to losing those MVPs each year?
This is an empty criticism.That's not theoretical, EMbiid was hands down the MVP this year prior to being injured, and 2 years ago, he was head to head with Jokic until after the all-star break.
Yeah, healthy Embiid is quite good. It's like when Jordan was trading MVPs with Malone. Or Magic. Or was THIRD in the MVP vote in 1993.
Guys aren't unanimous every year. It doesn't work like that, especially when there's tons of high-end talent in the league. This is another non-sensical argument.
eyeatoma wrote:Malone doesn't even compare to Embiid. Magic yes.
It isn't what happened? Jokic was getting destroyed in space, and wasn't even trying to defend. You can only go so long until that catches up to you.
They are by in large the #1 measuring stick when talking about the GOAT. It's one of the reasons people hate on Embiid so much, is his poor playoff success and lack of chips.
LeBron went to 8 straight finals, and people were still having difficulty calling him the GOAT, or saying he was in the running.
eyeatoma wrote:sfernald wrote:Crashed back to earth as his team eliminated in second round. Appears extremely overrated. Just one of several in this era like Anthony Davis and Giannis who have managed a single championship.
Finally will have some peace this summer.
tsherkin wrote:eyeatoma wrote:tsherkin wrote:
Partial picture. He was 11/18 inside the arc, 6/7 at the line, and had 19 rebounds (6 of them on the offensive glass). AND he was defending well.
No it wasn't, you're just bitter that Embiid has a lot of haters due to his availability issues.
I can be bitter about that, and it can still be true that he is not on a goat trajectory. Have the discussion when he has about 4 Chips, not one.
No, the conversation can be had now. Folks don't have to agree with it, but he's done enough that it's fair to begin the talks. Trying to deny that is just non-sensical.
ky_23 wrote:the disrespect is crazy here. it is almost like people expect the nuggets to apologize for winning last year. they were the best team in the league. they swept the lakers who also beat the defending champions gsw the previous round. they gentlemen swept miami team that beat top 2 teams in the east. jokic also went up against gobert, ad, bam dominanted them. they made the road look easy by playing the best basketball in the league and their best player was jokic who happens to be a 3 time mvp right now. take him out of the team for the last 4 years. how many times denver makes the playoffs? or replace him with Embiid, giannis, sga, luka this team would not see a game 7 against the 4x dpoy and the best defense in the league.
SalsaNchips wrote:Feel like if you went silent for 3 games you lose the ability to talk again on the matter
~Regarding Denver Nuggets, May 2025hardenASG13 wrote:They are better than the teammates of SGA, Giannis, Luka, Brunson, Curry etc. so far.
hardenASG13 wrote:nikster wrote:hardenASG13 wrote:So..........yeahhhh.
I don't want to kick a guy when he's down, and let me preface this by saying Jokic is likely one of the best players in the league right now, if not the best.
BUT........Ya’ll talked so much crap to me and alot of other posters here all year, calling us stupid, unintelligent, not understanding of what we were seeing all because Jokic and Denver (Murray 26/7/6 in last years run) won a title last year.
I tried countless times to point out how weak the competition last year was. Pointed out how nobody Denver beat was as good as Minnesota, OKC, Boston, etc. this season, and thatd this would prove much more than anything last year. And it sure did.
It's not like Jokic is suddenly a bad player because he didn't win the title this year. But I've been told, repeatedly and with incredible smugness all season he was playing the best basketball we've ever seen, that he's comparable to prime LeBron and MJ! So with that, it's not that he didn't win another title, those are hard to win.....it's that he lost in the second round, with homecourt, to a team who had never been to the second round before, and blew a 20 point 2nd half lead to lose convincingly! All against the First quality opponent he faced in the last two years. GOATs dont do that. Post his stats all you want. He had 2 MVP level games out of 7. He wasn't able to take over last night at all, and shot the ball poorly. That godlike passing disappeared vs a good defense that took away alot of the cuts off him where he racks up assists on DHOs. He had a bunch of rebounds last night, mostly in the first half when Minnesota couldn't make a shot. Didn't rebound outside his area really at all, cleans up under the rim on misses. Andre Drummond can do that.
As I've said all along about this GOAT talk all season, it was premature annointing. He's got some flaws for a GOAT. Namely (watch how I do this without just posting a bunch of random advanced stats)
- for a guy who plays outside alot at the top of the key, his handle is weak. He rarely dribbles while covered in the half court, just backs in from the foul line area without facing the defense. That can only get you so far against a quality opponent, especially when your team is relying on you to score and break down the defense.
- As a rebounder, he's an elite position rebounder and great at boxing out, very physical. But he doesn't rebound outside his area (pursuing the ball) very well, and isn't overwhelming getting rebounds in traffic.
- His defense.....ugh. He got burned badly when his guy was crashing in for athletic put back dunks toward the end last night. He is in fact slow on that end, and and not being fast or able to jump high was a problem for him and Denver in this series. They enjoyed the layup line when they got past the perimeter defender/top of the zone like defense Denver resorted to, to try to prevent the layup line at the rim. He's a much worse defender than alot of the GOATs, especially big men, that he's compared to here. Then you have Lebron and MJ who were on a whole different planet than him defensively too.
- Lastly, Winning. They beat 0 quality teams last year (name one if you disagree). Again, we're not crushing him today because he lost in the finals or something. He lost in the second round, vs. a team making it's second round debut, on his homecourt, in embarrassing fashion. This was the first quality opponent faced in the last two seasons, and, gone!
These flaws were pointed out repeatedly by a few posters that didn't mind the arrogant attacks by this sites Jokics supporters all season. For guys to enter the GOAT debate, they need to beat quality playoff opponents repeatedly, show they can take over series repeatedly, be better two way players and quite frankly, look better than that. Doesn't face a defender with a live dribble or have the legs to post up all game (like Shaq). Leadership is questionable (doesn't bring energy, blew a 20 point 2nd half lead in a game 7, at home), and he simply hasn't proved enough to put him in those conversations. That was a rush job, prisoner of the moment stuff, all for beating an injured .500 twolves team last season (Edwards wasn't the same player, minus Reid and Mcdaniels), a Suns team who as we can see isn't/wasn't very good, an old Lakers team who isnt/wasn't very good, and the 8 seed heat, who rode hot shooting and a few injuries (Giannis, Tatum) to a finals they had no business being in. That wasn't a historical accomplishment, and as I've said, many players with 0 rings have beaten better playoff opponents.
He's a great player, but yall annointed him(in a smug, demeaning fashion) wayyy too quickly, which is what myself and a few others have been trying to tell you. 0 playoff series wins against a quality opponent (1 if you count the bubble clippers in front of 0 fans) doesn't make you a GOAT candidate, no matter how many MVPs you have because the analytics said so. He's going to be 30 next year. There are real flaws to his game that a good eye test can see that aren't encompassed when calculating his EPM, LEBRON RAPTOR Rapm score.
If Murray plays any were close to a real 2nd option they're beating the Wolves so I don't buy the "he only won because he had an easy run" narrative. Your Crushing him today because of your bias. Still trying to diminish the quality of the wolves in your comment.
"You see Jokic is so flawed that when he plays against the best D in the league and his 2nd option disappears he only puts up 29/11/8. So what if he was the best scorer, rebounder and creator all series"
"GOATs" donts do that is such a lazy argument. GOATs fail in all sorts of manners, sometimes spectacularly. Lebron collapsed in 2011, MJ leading a 0.500 won team to back to back first round sweeps, Magics 84 finals that earned him the nickname 'tragic Johnson' etc....
Murray had 35 last night.....does he need to put up 45 like in the bubble? Their losses in the series weren't particularly close. If this loss doesn't show you how easy it was last year, maybe I'm not the one clouded by bias? I'm not diminishing Minnesota, and have said since mid season they were better than anyone Denver beat last season. They showed it. Don't act like they're some historical Juggernaut though. They are a quality contender, unlike anyone Denver beat last season. GOATs have to beat quality contenders, repeatedly. Jokic has done so once if you want to say the much accomplished clippers were that.
He put up good numbers, as expected, yes. And I've said he's one of if not the best player currently in the NBA. But this era from 2021-present has lacked proven stars or teams. Last year's playoffs were extremely weak, and posting a bunch of his numbers doesn't erase what the eye test has told me, that ive been slammed for saying all season, in that he has some flaws that happened to get exposed against the first quality opponent he faced in the past two seasons. Not exposed in the sense that he's not great, but in that he isn't playing like one of or the best player ever as many here have pounded about all season.
You reference a few Finals losses by Lebron and Magic, and some early career losses by MJ. Finals losses are one thing. How many times did those guys lose in the second round with home court against a team making it's second round debut? As far as MJ, those were early in his career. Jokic turns 30 next season.
JustBuzzin wrote:Bro literally nobody is discussing Jokic as the GOAT besides this board.
LeBron vs MJ. That's the debate. Sorry to burst your bubble.
tsherkin wrote:JustBuzzin wrote:Bro literally nobody is discussing Jokic as the GOAT besides this board.
And?
We're ON "this board."LeBron vs MJ. That's the debate. Sorry to burst your bubble.
You're not bursting anything. You're referencing people who's opinions don't matter. *shrug*
